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LegioCI

Could WG Buff US BB Secondaries?

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So, its been brought up that WG thinks that USN BBs are underperforming from Tier III-IX and are looking at buffs. While the smart money is on some sort of gunnery buff- dispersion, sigma, penetration, etc.- what if WG did something completely different?

...Like buff secondaries?

We've already seen a successful test-case for this style of play with the Massachusetts, a warmly received departure from the typical USN BB mold- it traded its ability to rain down super-heavy shells at 20km+ for a strong secondary suite. While the ship requires something of a specialized 15pt+ Captain to get the most out of, almost everyone has agreed that its aggressive, short-range playstyle is quite fun and effective. So why not export some level of that enjoyment to the rest of the USN line and let the 5"/38s off the chain?

You could start at Tier VI- simply model the final hull upgrade for the New Mexico after the the refit received by USS Idaho which replaced the 25mm mounts with ten enclosed single-mount 5"/38 Duel-Purpose turrets turrets, however the secondaries would hit their stride at Tier VII, by giving the Colorado a final hull that includes the duel-mount 5"/38s. After this, its just a matter of buffing the North Carolina and Iowa's 5"/38 secondary batteries to be similar to the Massachusetts; base of 7.5km firing range, with good accuracy and RoF but each shell individually has poor damage, penetration and fire chance. Overall, the USN Secondaries would be accurate defensive weapons, shredding DDs who are dumb enough to charge into a US BB, do minor damage and start fires on cruisers, and mainly do nothing to battleships outside of starting the occasional fire. Investing in IFHE would give the secondaries additional punch against other battleships at the cost of losing either Concealment Expert or Manual Secondaries.

Compared to German battleships, the Americans would have better "long-range" accuracy and rate of fire with their secondaries, but fewer guns and worse damage and penetration. Additionally German turtleback armor makes German BBs far safer in short-range brawls than USN battleships. German 15cm HE penetration means that they are more easily able to damage other battleships with secondary fire without having to invest in IFHE. German damage and penetration makes their secondaries more of a threat to other battleships, while USN accuracy and RoF makes them a larger threat to Destroyers.

A stronger secondary suite would make it safer and more lucrative for US Battlewagons to play aggressively and, due to the placement of secondaries also gives them a reason to do something other than go bow-in at Tier 8+. Its also an out-of-the-box idea for a buff that is more interesting and exciting than better sigma or shell penetration, while also giving USN BBs a unique play-style that asks them to get close enough to get use from their secondaries, but not too close as they are still vulnerable in close-range brawl.

Oh, and you guys get your duel 5"/38-armed Colorado-class, too.
 

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14 minutes ago, LegioCI said:

So, its been brought up that WG thinks that USN BBs are underperforming from Tier III-IX and are looking at buffs. While the smart money is on some sort of gunnery buff- dispersion, sigma, penetration, etc.- what if WG did something completely different?

...Like buff secondaries?

We've already seen a successful test-case for this style of play with the Massachusetts, a warmly received departure from the typical USN BB mold- it traded its ability to rain down super-heavy shells at 20km+ for a strong secondary suite. While the ship requires something of a specialized 15pt+ Captain to get the most out of, almost everyone has agreed that its aggressive, short-range playstyle is quite fun and effective. So why not export some level of that enjoyment to the rest of the USN line and let the 5"/38s off the chain?

You could start at Tier VI- simply model the final hull upgrade for the New Mexico after the the refit received by USS Idaho which replaced the 25mm mounts with ten enclosed single-mount 5"/38 Duel-Purpose turrets turrets, however the secondaries would hit their stride at Tier VII, by giving the Colorado a final hull that includes the duel-mount 5"/38s. After this, its just a matter of buffing the North Carolina and Iowa's 5"/38 secondary batteries to be similar to the Massachusetts; base of 7.5km firing range, with good accuracy and RoF but each shell individually has poor damage, penetration and fire chance. Overall, the USN Secondaries would be accurate defensive weapons, shredding DDs who are dumb enough to charge into a US BB, do minor damage and start fires on cruisers, and mainly do nothing to battleships outside of starting the occasional fire. Investing in IFHE would give the secondaries additional punch against other battleships at the cost of losing either Concealment Expert or Manual Secondaries.

Compared to German battleships, the Americans would have better "long-range" accuracy and rate of fire with their secondaries, but fewer guns and worse damage and penetration. Additionally German turtleback armor makes German BBs far safer in short-range brawls than USN battleships. German 15cm HE penetration means that they are more easily able to damage other battleships with secondary fire without having to invest in IFHE. German damage and penetration makes their secondaries more of a threat to other battleships, while USN accuracy and RoF makes them a larger threat to Destroyers.

A stronger secondary suite would make it safer and more lucrative for US Battlewagons to play aggressively and, due to the placement of secondaries also gives them a reason to do something other than go bow-in at Tier 8+. Its also an out-of-the-box idea for a buff that is more interesting and exciting than better sigma or shell penetration, while also giving USN BBs a unique play-style that asks them to get close enough to get use from their secondaries, but not too close as they are still vulnerable in close-range brawl.

Oh, and you guys get your duel 5"/38-armed Colorado-class, too.
 

They did. On Mass. Pay me!

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1 hour ago, LegioCI said:

So, its been brought up that WG thinks that USN BBs are underperforming from Tier III-IX and are looking at buffs. While the smart money is on some sort of gunnery buff- dispersion, sigma, penetration, etc.- what if WG did something completely different?

...Like buff secondaries?

We've already seen a successful test-case for this style of play with the Massachusetts, a warmly received departure from the typical USN BB mold- it traded its ability to rain down super-heavy shells at 20km+ for a strong secondary suite. While the ship requires something of a specialized 15pt+ Captain to get the most out of, almost everyone has agreed that its aggressive, short-range playstyle is quite fun and effective. So why not export some level of that enjoyment to the rest of the USN line and let the 5"/38s off the chain?

You could start at Tier VI- simply model the final hull upgrade for the New Mexico after the the refit received by USS Idaho which replaced the 25mm mounts with ten enclosed single-mount 5"/38 Duel-Purpose turrets turrets, however the secondaries would hit their stride at Tier VII, by giving the Colorado a final hull that includes the duel-mount 5"/38s. After this, its just a matter of buffing the North Carolina and Iowa's 5"/38 secondary batteries to be similar to the Massachusetts; base of 7.5km firing range, with good accuracy and RoF but each shell individually has poor damage, penetration and fire chance. Overall, the USN Secondaries would be accurate defensive weapons, shredding DDs who are dumb enough to charge into a US BB, do minor damage and start fires on cruisers, and mainly do nothing to battleships outside of starting the occasional fire. Investing in IFHE would give the secondaries additional punch against other battleships at the cost of losing either Concealment Expert or Manual Secondaries.

Compared to German battleships, the Americans would have better "long-range" accuracy and rate of fire with their secondaries, but fewer guns and worse damage and penetration. Additionally German turtleback armor makes German BBs far safer in short-range brawls than USN battleships. German 15cm HE penetration means that they are more easily able to damage other battleships with secondary fire without having to invest in IFHE. German damage and penetration makes their secondaries more of a threat to other battleships, while USN accuracy and RoF makes them a larger threat to Destroyers.

A stronger secondary suite would make it safer and more lucrative for US Battlewagons to play aggressively and, due to the placement of secondaries also gives them a reason to do something other than go bow-in at Tier 8+. Its also an out-of-the-box idea for a buff that is more interesting and exciting than better sigma or shell penetration, while also giving USN BBs a unique play-style that asks them to get close enough to get use from their secondaries, but not too close as they are still vulnerable in close-range brawl.

Oh, and you guys get your duel 5"/38-armed Colorado-class, too.

From WG's notes, it looks like they're going to be addressing secondaries across the board for all nations.  Who knows what they're going to do (I doubt anything too drastic), but I think WG's main goal is just to make secondary builds on par with other builds, especially in competitive play. 

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Let's make every ship the same. exactly the same lets take this buff and nerf off the table once and for all.......:Smile_glasses:

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The problem with US BB isn't that they are under-performing, it's that their ''niche'' is almost non-existent. When you think US BB, you think about AA, since they are probably the only BB line with good AA top to bottom. But there is no CV so it makes this strength almost irrelevant. With the CV rework, thing may change: US BB will be more popular while ships like Musashi and the Tirpitz will drop in popularity.

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1 hour ago, Raven114 said:

Let's make every ship the same. exactly the same lets take this buff and nerf off the table once and for all.......:Smile_glasses:

I'm sorry, but I just have to laugh at this comment.  You do realize that 99% of players all spec out their ships exactly the same and that the meta is dominated by only one single build type, right? 

I welcome any consideration from WG to make gameplay more diverse and interesting.  Most warships are bristled with a variety of secondaries and they're nothing more than fireworks displays most of the time.

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There are only 3 ships right now that benefits from a secondary build: Bismark, Tirpitz and Alabama. I don't mind giving the USN BB  line T7 on up, a secondary range of 10-11 km after all the buffs.

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Considering US BBs get many good AA ships and better gun accuracy than the Brawler BB Lines, I highly disagree with putting a blanket Secondaries Buff to US Battleships.

 

Not to mention US BB Line is the only line that can take something like AAGM2 in Slot 3 while buffing Main Battery Accuracy with APRM2 in Slot 6 for the Tier IX-X USN BBs.  Every other national BB line has to make a hard choice.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Considering US BBs get many good AA ships and better gun accuracy than the Brawler BB Lines, I highly disagree with putting a blanket Secondaries Buff to US Battleships.

Not to mention US BB Line is the only line that can take something like AAGM2 in Slot 3 while buffing Main Battery Accuracy with APRM2 in Slot 6 for the Tier IX-X USN BBs.  Every other national BB line has to make a hard choice.

I would agree with you on that part.  The last thing I'd ever want is for ships to become overpowered.

I think the Montana is a good example of what a tech-tree battleship could do.  Montana has all the bones of a great secondary ship...except the range.  This gives it great damage output and fire chance, but it lacks the area-of-denial ability that the Republique and Kurfurst have.  I've thought to myself multiple times that if the Montana had 11-12km secondary range, it would be way overpowered.  It just has too many great things going for it.  Or, one could increase the range and accuracy, but reduce the rate of fire.  That would give it some area-of-denial potential, but wouldn't have the damage output of a true brawler. 

But you're right, and I fully agree; you can't have it all. 

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On 11/28/2018 at 5:20 AM, Y_Nagato said:

The problem with US BB isn't that they are under-performing, it's that their ''niche'' is almost non-existent. When you think US BB, you think about AA, since they are probably the only BB line with good AA top to bottom. But there is no CV so it makes this strength almost irrelevant. With the CV rework, thing may change: US BB will be more popular while ships like Musashi and the Tirpitz will drop in popularity.

This i agree with, although there is another factor to take in: the amount of secondary concentration. Ships like Bismarck, Tirpitz, Musashi, basicaly every ship with a high amount of secondaries. Have lots of BARRELS which means they have access to the area denial. Every US BB tier VI and up has 20 secondary barrels or less. While most other nations have more than 20 barrels. US secondaries are uniform in caliber (5"/38) while every other nation has a mix in caliber. WG could give US BBs a secondary buff. Maybe make the range 8-10km but keep the accuracy the same, this will give them range similar to other nations but not totally give them the area denial ability. This would probably reduce the amount of people using stealth builds on US BBs (even though i use one on my NC) and also make US BBs more viable and give their "Niche" a little push.

On 11/28/2018 at 12:09 AM, LegioCI said:

So, its been brought up that WG thinks that USN BBs are underperforming from Tier III-IX and are looking at buffs. While the smart money is on some sort of gunnery buff- dispersion, sigma, penetration, etc.- what if WG did something completely different?

...Like buff secondaries?

We've already seen a successful test-case for this style of play with the Massachusetts, a warmly received departure from the typical USN BB mold- it traded its ability to rain down super-heavy shells at 20km+ for a strong secondary suite. While the ship requires something of a specialized 15pt+ Captain to get the most out of, almost everyone has agreed that its aggressive, short-range playstyle is quite fun and effective. So why not export some level of that enjoyment to the rest of the USN line and let the 5"/38s off the chain?

You could start at Tier VI- simply model the final hull upgrade for the New Mexico after the the refit received by USS Idaho which replaced the 25mm mounts with ten enclosed single-mount 5"/38 Duel-Purpose turrets turrets, however the secondaries would hit their stride at Tier VII, by giving the Colorado a final hull that includes the duel-mount 5"/38s. After this, its just a matter of buffing the North Carolina and Iowa's 5"/38 secondary batteries to be similar to the Massachusetts; base of 7.5km firing range, with good accuracy and RoF but each shell individually has poor damage, penetration and fire chance. Overall, the USN Secondaries would be accurate defensive weapons, shredding DDs who are dumb enough to charge into a US BB, do minor damage and start fires on cruisers, and mainly do nothing to battleships outside of starting the occasional fire. Investing in IFHE would give the secondaries additional punch against other battleships at the cost of losing either Concealment Expert or Manual Secondaries.

Compared to German battleships, the Americans would have better "long-range" accuracy and rate of fire with their secondaries, but fewer guns and worse damage and penetration. Additionally German turtleback armor makes German BBs far safer in short-range brawls than USN battleships. German 15cm HE penetration means that they are more easily able to damage other battleships with secondary fire without having to invest in IFHE. German damage and penetration makes their secondaries more of a threat to other battleships, while USN accuracy and RoF makes them a larger threat to Destroyers.

A stronger secondary suite would make it safer and more lucrative for US Battlewagons to play aggressively and, due to the placement of secondaries also gives them a reason to do something other than go bow-in at Tier 8+. Its also an out-of-the-box idea for a buff that is more interesting and exciting than better sigma or shell penetration, while also giving USN BBs a unique play-style that asks them to get close enough to get use from their secondaries, but not too close as they are still vulnerable in close-range brawl.

Oh, and you guys get your duel 5"/38-armed Colorado-class, too.
 

or this

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