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ElectroVeeDub

Should WG Buff the RN DD line?

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Although I did enjoy the Jervis and Lightning, the remainder of the RN DD line has been rather underwhelming. Especially the smoke and the 113mm guns at T9-T10.

Smoke is a DD's only means of defense. Torpedoes rarely hit. The guns do very little damage. Low fire chance. Terrible top-speed with no boost. Piss-poor hydro range. An over-proliferation of radar. An absurd amount of new gunboat DD's introduced into the game. All these factors seem to really make the RN DD's feel like something is wrong.

I'm at the T9 Jutland, and I'm less than impressed with it's survivability.

What's your opinions?

Edited by ElectroVeeDub

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8% fire chance is among the highest for any DD, so dunno how that's low. Khabarovsk and all the VMF DDs get the same base fire chance. In addition and correct me if I'm wrong, Lightning and Jutland got some of the best detection for their tier, definitely better than the  other gunboats.

I am at the moment on Icarus, and while uninspiring and meh at best, they are workable and don't feel purely as speedbumps. Besides, there is the true gem of the line, Lightning.

Edited by warheart1992

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1 minute ago, warheart1992 said:

8% fire chance is among the highest for any DD, so dunno how that's low. Khabarovsk and all the VMF DDs get the same base fire chance. In addition and correct me if I'm wrong, Lightning and Jutland got some of the best detection for their tier, definitely better than the  other gunboats.

I am at the moment on Icarus, and while uninspiring and meh at best, they are workable and don't feel purely as speedbumps. Besides, there is the true gem of the line, Lightning.

Simple.

IFHE is required at T9 and T10. That 8% fire chance amounts to very little when you're forced to use IFHE just to get some reliable damage from the guns.

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Take IFHE. Dont be at the front, capping is risky with so much radar. If you cap have an escape plan, wiggle as much as you can when spotted. No speed boost means being slippery rather than fast. Use the speed flag at all times. Your best games will be ambushing enemies or defending caps away from the main enemy fleet. Most dd out spot you or out dpm you, none will do both. Switch between ammo types. Use your smoke to set ambushes, not as a home base. Farm damage when smoke it’s up. Single launch as often as possible. Hydro is more defensive in rn Dds so you won’t go hunting much. I have hunted when there is a geraing or shima smoke camping and they have a bad time. Give your guns a little more lead than might feel is right.

they play very differently than most other lines. I wish detection was a little lower given the speed disadvantage. 

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Here's a video where Notser calls the RN DD's at T9-T10.... "Defensive DD's"...

I can hear the team-mates screaming now because all the RN DD's refuse to cap in clan-battles lol. They're "Defensive only!"  :)

Apparently island humping is recommended. Like you're a Des Moines...

Edited by ElectroVeeDub

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Yes. Let's remind WG how Jutland and Daring are both over-performing so they will YY them with only "minor effect" on their unique features of smoke, hydro, and fast firing guns.

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1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Simple.

IFHE is required at T9 and T10. That 8% fire chance amounts to very little when you're forced to use IFHE just to get some reliable damage from the guns.

You lose 1% fire chance from IFHE. So, 7% is still good for the rate of fire Jutland & Daring.

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2 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

 

Here's a video where Notser calls the RN DD's at T9-T10.... "Defensive DD's"...

I can hear the team-mates screaming now because all the RN DD's refuse to cap in clan-battles lol. They're "Defensive only!"  :)

Apparently island humping is recommended. Like you're a Des Moines...

Actually, I think that all RN DDs are considered "defensive DDs".  It's just that the tier 9 and 10 RN DDs are a bit more gunboat-y than the lesser tier ones.  The lesser tier ones can push caps a little easier with their lower concealments.  For example, the Lightning has a concealment of 5.5km, which allows it to be very aggressive in hunting down DDs, even IJN DDs with their 5.4km concealments.  But the tier 9 and 10 RN DDs with their concealments in the low 6's can't hunt enemy DDs so aggressively because they'll get outspotted rather badly.  IIRC, WG started with the Daring having a lower concealment, but decided to increase it.  I suspect that they decided that allowing the Daring to have a concealment of around 5.5 to 5.7 made them too dangerous as DD hunters.  So, now the T9 and 10 RN DDs are more in the style of the IJN T9 and 10 gunboats.

 

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Yeah, I dunno. Something is wrong with the Jutland for sure. It literally gets outgunned by everything. Including IJN DD's. The caliber is too small, and penetration is too low. Everything shatters even on other DD's. The fires and torps alone cant be relied upon.

 

They're DD's for camping.

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For myself I'm finding the Daring very effective (when I don't screw up).   Its play style is very different and what I can only term as 'bursty'.   When contesting caps or hunting DDs..  I'll move in to find a target (with ifhe loaded to start) or better let them find me..  get off 5-6 salvos (switching to AP if they are showing some side) then drop smoke and break the engagement.  then circle back  around and do it again (depending on the presence of opfor radar) .       When the team is pushing I'll get out in front hydro (almost 4min with extender mod) and screen for incoming tops.      Yes the torps on the boat are sub optimal (at least I can't seem to make them work consistantly for me) but they are nice for general area denial and to shoot at incoming CA/BBs and force them to turn and show some side.   I also look for CA/BB in range that are showing some side..  drop smoke and get off 10-15ish full salvos of AP into the superstructure getting 1.5-3k dmg per salvo then going quite while setting up to do something else.

Bottom line for me is, IMO, they have to be played with a lot more forethought (they are slow getting to the right position) and patience.

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I dunno... I feel I am a mediocre DD driver at best, and I think my best 3 games ever in a DD were all accomplished in Jutland. 211k, 203k, and 178k and that is without IFHE. I cant pull off games like that every time, but I think Jutland is a fun bote even with only a 15pt captain. When it all works I almost feel dirty. I dont really think the RN DDs need buffs, though I am not to Daring yet. Wouldnt complain about small buffs - especially to speed or concealment - but dont think they are necessary. Just my $.02

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Only major complain I have with the RN DD line is the fact that their 113mm Gun can only penetrate 18mm's of armor (aka: they cannot penetrate the hull armor of damn near any tier 8 and above DD), while the Japanese 100mm Gun can penetrate 24mm of armor. I get that the those 100mm shells go 1000m/s but hell. This seems like some artificial way to waste 4 skill points to make the thing even manageable.

I just went looking through stats and what was written is rather mind boggling. 113mm guns at tier 9 and 10... ok... but they can't penetrate a broadside DD for nothing as they only penetrate 18mm's worth of armor... meaning that those shells HAVE to hit the superstructure of a enemy DD to deal any damage what so ever (as every DD at tier 8 and up has 19mm's worth of armor on the hull minimum).

The RN DD's main guns are the only ones that are treated this way for some odd [edited]reason. 1mm more and the thing could at least deal damage to another DD without having to invest in a 4 pt. captain skill.

Whatever the hell utilizing the ship for "defensive" purposes means, but the damn thing is 4 skill points away from having guns that can at least damage another enemy DD and you only friggin need one more millimeter worth of penetration to do it.

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Actually, Jutland and Daring need nerfs. Daring, for example, could be bumped up to a 3 second reload. They're too stealthy for their gun power, or too powerful for their stealth. And they have a Repair. Give Gearing and Fletcher a Repair too.

And they should have normal AP angles.

Edited by BarnacleCollector
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4 hours ago, BarnacleCollector said:

Actually, Jutland and Daring need nerfs. Daring, for example, could be bumped up to a 3 second reload. They're too stealthy for their gun power, or too powerful for their stealth. And they have a Repair. Give Gearing and Fletcher a Repair too.

And they should have normal AP angles.

Prior to the BB AP vs DD nerf, I thought the heal was rather 'meh' as it only heals back maybe 2k-ish HP.  Now that BB AP will only do 10% per shell that heal suddenly becomes quite a bit more powerful.  That said I'm not sure I can agree that Jutland and Daring need nerfs; tbh I think its a bit early to make judgements on relative power of the line.  I suspect the majority of the IX/X RN DD drivers currently are skilled players (or like me, were lucky and got the Lightning mission in a box and maxed her out by release).  The stats will need a little while longer to normalize... I'd say maybe by the end of 0.7.12 we should have a better idea of where they stand. 

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With 74k average damage in daring , they don't need a buff , but if the common mortal want a buff and WG give one game will likely get the average way higher , it is not rare for me to kill all DD with daring or Jutland

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The lower-tier ones are awful. Far worse than their counterparts.

They're barely playable until you hit T7, and even that one is marginal, at best.

A "defensive" DD?  Huh?

They need to rethink the entire concept for the RN DDs. Not just little buffs, the whole shebang needs a thorough re-think as to what exactly is the mission for these, what are they supposed to be doing, and then figure out how to give them tools to succeed.  As it stands right now, there's absolutely no reason to grind up to the only playable DD, the Lightning. 

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On 11/27/2018 at 7:36 AM, ElectroVeeDub said:

Simple.

IFHE is required at T9 and T10. That 8% fire chance amounts to very little when you're forced to use IFHE just to get some reliable damage from the guns.

 

Jesus the entitlement. 8% fire chance makes it only the best firestarting DD at T10.

 

Daring base 10.74

with just IFHE 9.62

with BFT + DE 14.21

with DE + IFHE 11.78

with BFT + IFHE 10.69

with BFT + DE + IFHE 13.08

Harugumo base 9.11

 with BFT + DE 13.02

with DE + IFHE 10.47

with BFT + IFHE 8.45

with BFT + DE + IFHE 11.64

Khabarovsk base 6.64

with BFT + DE 8.63

with DE + IFHE 7.02

with BFT + IFHE 6.66

with BFT + DE + IFHE 8.02

 

..in FPM, assuming MBM3. A Daring with IFHE and DE has better firestarting potential than a Harugumo has with IFHE+DE+BFT. A Daring with just IFHE has better firestarting potential than a Khabarovsk (or Gearing) does at any point.

 

Daring is extremely strong.

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On 12/1/2018 at 8:50 AM, LAnybody said:

The lower-tier ones are awful. Far worse than their counterparts.

They're barely playable until you hit T7, and even that one is marginal, at best.

A "defensive" DD?  Huh?

They need to rethink the entire concept for the RN DDs. Not just little buffs, the whole shebang needs a thorough re-think as to what exactly is the mission for these, what are they supposed to be doing, and then figure out how to give them tools to succeed.  As it stands right now, there's absolutely no reason to grind up to the only playable DD, the Lightning. 

Do you feel pity for any player in a RN DD?

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Not at tiers 8-10. Those three ships are overpowered. As is Cossack. All of them are too stealthy for their gun power, or have too much gun power for their concealment. And why do the British destroyers have a Repair? Why do Grozovoi and Udaloi for that matter?

Edited by BarnacleCollector

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On 11/27/2018 at 9:42 AM, jager_geist said:

You lose 1% fire chance from IFHE. So, 7% is still good for the rate of fire Jutland & Daring.

Most people take DE though so it'd be buffed to 9% with IFHE.

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On 12/19/2018 at 5:06 PM, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Daring and Jutland are both on course for a deserved nerf. The repair party is too much.

Curious - do you think it is too much post-BB AP nerf?  Or has it always been?  I have Jutland but not Daring, IIRC the repair is only good for around 2300 HP which in a tier 10 game doesn't get you far.  (TBH I often forget I even have a heal)  Given their lower speed I feel like the heal is a compensation of sorts.  I could see maybe giving up the heal for 1-2 knots more maximum speed though.

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3 hours ago, Uncle_Lou said:

Curious - do you think it is too much post-BB AP nerf?  Or has it always been?  I have Jutland but not Daring, IIRC the repair is only good for around 2300 HP which in a tier 10 game doesn't get you far.  (TBH I often forget I even have a heal)  Given their lower speed I feel like the heal is a compensation of sorts.  I could see maybe giving up the heal for 1-2 knots more maximum speed though.

Most people I see playing them play them like regular DDs.  The best way I can describe it is quick hit and smoke up raids on exposed enemy CA and BBs.  Use your high fire chance to pressure the enemy DD's support out of position.  This reduces the amount of damage you will take fighting DDs.  The super long hydro lets you do this easy.

The heal is massive.  Huge advantage.  A properly speced Jutland heals for 2590 HP max per repair for a total of an additional 7770 HP.  This gives it a max potential HP pool of 29320 HP in a package that concealable, with that fire per minute, DPM, and short fuse AP.  These ships have gigantic advantages over older DD lines.

Who cares if they are slow, position yourself so a radar CA can chase and yolo you.  Done.  These ships need some sort of weakness.

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