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goldeagle1123

What exactly is the point of German DDs?

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I am genuinely looking for an answer to this question, not just trying to complain. I am currently on the Gaede and see little point in continuing the grind. I hear bad things about all but from the low tier DDs and Z-52. Their national "flavors" see to be high HP, outrageously bad concealment, mediocre gun DPM, short-ranged modestly performing torpedoes, by far the worst smoke screen in the game, and a hydroacoustic search that is overshadowed by the insanely long and arguably better RN DD hydro.

I struggle to find motivation to grind this line, especially after the infamously bad T-22 which I free-xp'd, and being on the mediocre at best Gaede.

Edited by goldeagle1123
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To me they are similar to US DDs with an emphasis on cap control. Keep in mind that with the torpedo upgrade you get one of the best torpedo DPM as well.

While they were hit quite hard by the prevalence of Radar lately,  I believe the recent changes to BB AP have improved them. I myself am at the Z-23, but haven't bought her yet since I got other priorities. Oh and recently the Hydro got buffed even more range wise.  Mass is quite a good jack of all trades imo.

Edited by warheart1992

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6 minutes ago, goldeagle1123 said:

I am currently on the Gaede and see little point in continuing the grind. I hear bad things about all but from the low tier DDs and Z-52.

I think the meta has changed with the new RN dd's.  The German dd's were cap contenders and Swiss Army knives of dds. They do have powerful AP and can citadel cruisers.  I thought the gaede was OK, I really enjoyed the Maas. I'm at the z-23 and find it to be on par to the others at t8. 

Play what you like playing. Good luck!

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German DDs are hybrids, they are good at contesting caps in the absence of radar, and can hold their own in a gunfight reasonably well, and get decent torps as well.

The mid tier German dds can be hard to play as their concealment is mediocre, but if you play cautiously enough, and use the hydro / smoke wisely, you can have success in them. I quite like the Maass. 

their torps don't have longest range or best damage, but in general have pretty fast reload, so you can spam them at BBs and CAs quite nicely. 

Their AP shells have quite good damage, so don't be afraid to use them against broadside cruisers / BBs. 

Their hydro is I think better than the UK DDs, at least when you get to higher tiers, T8 Z-23 gets 5km ship spotting and T9/T10 gets 6km (may be just T10, not sure), so you can lure opposing dds into your hydro range, smoke up, and shoot them up nicely. You really cannot do this with UK DDs, as their hydro only get 3 km ship spotting range. 

For the Gaede, do you have concealment expert captain skill? I grind through it with 10 point captain already so didn't think it was that bad. I think the best concealment you can get on Gaede is 6.6 km?, which is only a few hundred worse than the other gunboat dds. Sure it's tough against T8's when they get sub-6km concealment, but again, you have to be cautious and not charge head on into a cap.

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UK DD smoke is much worse. UK DD hydro is materially worse due to the short range.

German DDs are all about the caps - baiting enemy DDs to think they’re safe in their smoke, charge in and kill them using your high HP and big alpha strikes.

Then you pinch their (better) smokes and torp their teammates. 

It’s the German way.  

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22 minutes ago, goldeagle1123 said:

insanely long and arguably better RN DD hydro.

Ummmm. Look at the range of that Hydro. The German hydro is downright sadistic with its range.

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14 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

UK DD smoke is much worse. UK DD hydro is materially worse due to the short range.

German DDs are all about the caps - baiting enemy DDs to think they’re safe in their smoke, charge in and kill them using your high HP and big alpha strikes.

Then you pinch their (better) smokes and torp their teammates. 

It’s the German way.  

RN DDs have better smoke, it is on an insanely short cooldown, which means they can reposition and are less vulnerable to radar and being torpedoed in their smoke. The short hydro range doesn't matter, the length does, since 90% of what hydro is used for is to spot incoming torpedoes.

13 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Ummmm. Look at the range of that Hydro. The German hydro is downright sadistic with its range.

Not really. Their hydro is at its largest 6km, which is still extremely close range. And is practically worthless for anything but spotting torps and hunting unsupported enemy DDs, especially considering most radar is at or just under double your hydro range. Meaning you can never get in range to use it.

Edited by goldeagle1123
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8 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Ummmm. Look at the range of that Hydro. The German hydro is downright sadistic with its range.

Yes, the only one that's really good is Z-52's.  Everyone else is pretty shoddy.  I remember taking Lo Yang and Out-Hydro'ing every German DD not named Z-52 and I'm not even a DD Main to be real good at it :Smile_trollface:

 

I also recall a while back that WG was going to "standardize" Hydro ranges a bit which would have buffed some of the mid-upper tier German ships, but that hasn't gone live yet.  They may have reversed on that because this was some time ago.

 

Anyways, I didn't have a pleasant time with these DDs.  Poor concealment, clunky sailing, weak HE, mediocre torpedoes, big and easy to hit, sh*tty smoke.  I hit Tier VII and just thought, "It's not worth it to go to Z-52."  I had good fun with the weird low tier German DDs, but once you get to mid tier, they get mediocre and extremely bland.

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German DDs are quite strong, only weakened by the excessive amount of radar at high tiers. The combination of offensive hydro and smoke cannot be understated. And while their torp damage is very meh at high tiers, they also reload quick and travel to their target also very rapidly.

And unlike British destroyers, they can equip speed boost too.

German DDs are bullies. If no radar is present, they can basically have complete control over a cap simply by pushing up, smoking up, and activating Hydro.

By the way, do remember that most hydro got buffed recently. So the tier 8 and 9 (and tier 7 Z-39) all extent out to 5km. Lo Yang's hydro is 5.5km. And given the difference in power between the Z-23 and Lo Yang, I'd say Z-23 is now quite strong.

RN DD hydro is purely defensive. Pushing up to hydro a smoked DD at 3km distance isn't the best idea ever.

Edited by KaptainKaybe
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7 minutes ago, goldeagle1123 said:

RN DDs have better smoke, it is on an insanely short cooldown, which means they can reposition and are less vulnerable to radar and being torpedoed in their smoke. The short hydro range doesn't matter, the length does, since 90% of what hydro is used for is to spot incoming torpedoes.

What??!

Perhaps this is why you are struggling with German DDs. 

German smoke gives you enough time to set a fire or two on someone you’ve just torped. It also gives enemy DD false sense of security that you are going to camp broadside in your smoke on your side of the cap; instead of immediately rushing out to engage at close range using your hydro to spot enemy DD in their smoke.

You should never, ever, get torped in smoke because of your epic German hydro.

All DDs are vulnerable to radar regardless of smoke. Generally, everyone has to flee like cockroaches in the light.

 

7 minutes ago, goldeagle1123 said:

Not really. Their hydro is at its largest 6km, which is still extremely close range. And is practically worthless for anything but spotting torps and hunting unsupported enemy DDs, especially considering most radar is at or just under double your hydro range. Meaning you can never get in range to use it.

So defeatist! Unlike radar, your hydro is active for approx 37 hours, so use it!

 

Look, perhaps the line is not for you. That’s ok. But don’t run around claiming everything is bad if you don’t know how to use it.

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It's absolutely silly to compare British and German smokes as they play completely differently.

German smoke is meant to compliment their Hydro and be used in tandom to create a 5 or 6km no sail radius around him.

British smoke is meant to be used frequently to reposition and is NOT meant to be used in tandem with Hydro other than spotting inbound torps.

Edited by KaptainKaybe

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Personally, the Z-46 is the gem of the line. Though I’m grinding the 52 legendary mod so I can double stack the torpedo reload mods and get a ~60 second torpedo reload. Just to see how that plays out. 

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1 minute ago, HazardDrake said:

Personally, the Z-46 is the gem of the line. Though I’m grinding the 52 legendary mod so I can double stack the torpedo reload mods and get a ~60 second torpedo reload. Just to see how that plays out. 

Z46 plays a lot like IJN dds, I prefer z52 but i did extremely well in my z46 and kept it. 

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To be honest, I see the validity of the question. I've not played my Z-52 since Mid-September and even then I think it was solely to get the WG anniversary supercontainer as a T10.

I found Z-52 to be a pretty high-stress endgame, cap contesting in a high-radar environment is more trouble than it's worth. That said the ship (and KM DD in general) do have some fun points, the torpedo reload is rapid meaning a miss is less of a pain in the neck. the AP is very damaging and 5k salvoes into broadsides from a DD, even if infrequent are rewarding, the ships are moderately fast, stealth is on the bad end but not terrible.

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2 minutes ago, mofton said:

To be honest, I see the validity of the question. I've not played my Z-52 since Mid-September and even then I think it was solely to get the WG anniversary supercontainer as a T10.

I found Z-52 to be a pretty high-stress endgame, cap contesting in a high-radar environment is more trouble than it's worth. That said the ship (and KM DD in general) do have some fun points, the torpedo reload is rapid meaning a miss is less of a pain in the neck. the AP is very damaging and 5k salvoes into broadsides from a DD, even if infrequent are rewarding, the ships are moderately fast, stealth is on the bad end but not terrible.

The stress is staying relevant till the end game when the radar cruiser numbers are low and you still have hydro and smoke combo to punish isolated enemies. Its a ensuring the win boat. 

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Consider that Brit hydro is so short ranged it is only useful at detecting targets in smoke, and even then it's only an extra 1km from assured detection at 2km anyways (even more insulting... By swapping your stealth module for the detection module, you can spot ships in smoke at the exact same range as Brit hydro even if you have no hydro).

German hydro is long enough ranged it actually exceeds many dds detection range... Meaning it's useful even if your target isn't smoked up.

Brit hydro may be long lasting (though at roughly 2 minutes, German hydro can't be said to be short lived), but it's so short ranged as to be nearly useless, and completely useless if you equip a module.

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Just now, Shadeylark said:

Consider that Brit hydro is so short ranged it is only useful at detecting targets in smoke, and even then it's only an extra 1km from assured detection at 2km anyways (even more insulting... By swapping your stealth module for the detection module, you can spot ships in smoke at the exact same range as Brit hydro even if you have no hydro).

German hydro is long enough ranged it actually exceeds many dds detection range... Meaning it's useful even if your target isn't smoked up.

Brit hydro may be long lasting (though at roughly 2 minutes, German hydro can't be said to be short lived), but it's so short ranged as to be nearly useless, and completely useless if you equip a module.

You mean useful at detecting torps. I never use my daring to hydro detect ships too risky. 

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4 minutes ago, French_DD_Hype said:

The stress is staying relevant till the end game when the radar cruiser numbers are low and you still have hydro and smoke combo to punish isolated enemies. Its a ensuring the win boat. 

The stress and/or passive boredom of not really doing much for the first 12 minutes and hoping to be alive to exploit that in the last 6.

Not that appealing.

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2 minutes ago, French_DD_Hype said:

You mean useful at detecting torps. I never use my daring to hydro detect ships too risky. 

That's fair... But I got the impression the poster was suggesting that Brit hydro was a superior offensive ability than German hydro.

Brit hydro is perfectly fine defensively, even if I think it is a little superfluous, as a dd getting torpedoes in smoke is akin to a bb getting trip citted for sailing broadside... E.g. stupid should be painful.

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Extremely fast torpedo reload speeds so you can cause permanent flooding and fire

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Just now, Komrade_Rylo said:

Extremely fast torpedo reload speeds so you can cause permanent flooding and fire

If the guy your torping isnt half-way decent at torpedo beats which over time im seeing is becoming a problem. I have to start thinking 60 seconds beyond when i torp to get reliable hits now vs just tossing at the indicator. 

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