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New_Horizontal

CV rework should be canceled

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This is quite a while since my last comments on this forum, and yes, this is all about current carrier rework. 
After I watched a couple of videos about new CV rework and a lot of discussion with my friends who play the reworked version (yes, I cannot get into CV test due to problem with my PC lately and IRL stuff.). I find it is boring and horrible to play with due to how design was, even my friend told me they will quit CV altogether if this reworked is going to be implemented. 

The reasons why this is horrible idea
> RTS gameplay is vastly different from normal gameplay other class has to offer, removing this feature mean removing a variety of game and thus dumbing down a game which current CV rework doing. Speaking of RTS, People hates RTS gameplay due to micro/macromanagements and rather see this gone than adapt to it. (I know wows has one of the worst RTS control, but that's because how poorly optimized and engine that not support RTS handling)
  
> CV is not a completely OP nor broken class, but heavy MM reliance due to how stupid AA/Planes interaction works. If you are thrown into heavy AA MM you might as well quit and play another game because your effect in game was vastly dismissed by AA an on other way around that CV just dominating. The rework doesn't address this and will lead to another mess after rework namely "AA and planes" and "RNG"

> CV is hard to play well and require player to have a lot of practice and perfect it unlike other class, the skill that CV player gathered and mastered for almost 3 years will be wasted. If new CV came out, they will have to relearn everything and feel disgusted because they wasted time for nothing. It is slapping a CV player in the face with drastic changes that will break their will to trust WG and thus no longer supporting nor playing WG title games.

 > Most player that support new CV gameplay mostly want this rework just for sake of getting rid of CV rather than really wanted to play the class, certain players simply want CV removed altogether as many previous CV threads has shown. Why would they want CV to be reworked if not for make sure CV lose their charm and hope for elimination for good?

> New gameplay of CV encourage sniping and spamming planes against surface ships which is frustrating for targeted ships if they keep getting attacked and rely on their AA and with no fighter control, Defend a sniping is virtually impossible. Frustrating to know that you cannot stop CV sniping with new rework.

> Catering less skilled playerbase will kill the game in the long run because the one who really care about the game is skilled one since they spent a lot of time and money into this game and even bother to get good at it. most Good players can deal with CV problem but not the lesser ones

And many more that I could include into this topics but these are primary reasons 

And I didn't make a topics without an alternative solutions, so how the rework should be.
> Rework UI: CV UI currently is arguably one of the worst UI for RTS gameplay and not even good for normal gameplay due to how buggy it is. I know this will take time but just do it for the better for all gameplays not just CV.

> AA reworks should remove RNG and use planes health vs AA DPS directly: AA spotting ships for whole game is not fun I know. Why not just make AA not RNG dependent and allow low AA ships to be able to counter the planes, also AA arc should be included in consideration of AA VS plane HP because current system just dumb that you can use starboard side AA to shoot incoming planes that was on port side.

> Educating people (This is hardest part btw) you cannot get good at CV if you have bad CV understanding:  CV take different approach of gameplay thus an intensive CV guide is needed by setting a guide as barrier before first game in CV which all players must learn basics of how to CV, how to use planes, how to launch, how to do manual attack, how to strafe, etc. this can be done with scenarios mode that set specially for CV tutorial and set reward as you completed the tutorials (20 - 30 minutes should not be too much for you to learn) 

> Manual attack should be available as soon as you play first game in CV: people can't learn CV if you cut off vital tools to use

> Adjust squadron between USN/IJN CV to balance out each other to make both side fair to fight down to individual understanding of CV

> rework graf zeppeling: this thing is utterly overpowered and broken at the same time, a lot of nerf need to be done  because this is how "let average playerbase balance" is worst idea you could achieve 

> disable different tier division since this is main reasons for exploit "anchoring division" 

There are a lot more that I could add up and make a conclusion. I know Wargaming will not stop this based on feedback yet I want wargaming to reconsider another way to rebalancing CV instead of total rework because this was a net loss if wargaming let this pass.

 

Edited by New_Horizontal
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WG is dug in and has to much invested for them to just scrap it. 

 

BUT...there is something we can do. Just don't play them when they come out. Stop participating in the cv beta. If you aren't being heard then you have to make them hear you. The only way to truly be heard is through actions. Less talky, more doing.

You have to commit to not doing it though. Don't be weak.

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So let me get this organized in my feeble mind...  Having a ship class that OP players can completely and utterly dominate in is good for the game in long run?    Manual attacks are also good and CV's need more of them.. especially at lower tiers.   Essentially what it sounds like you are saying is..   The fact that 90% of the player base won't play it is their fault, due to incompetence, thus, making them happier...bad for game?   Making something with a simpler learning curve that more people will play - will dumb down the game?     

 

Simpler math as I see it..... Most nights on NA server I see somewhere between 10K & 12K online.....   By my guess looking at ques, about 30 of them are playing a carrier.   All that needs to be said about this.    Carry on.   

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After watching my Des Moines escort get deleted at the start of the game with AP bombs and then me getting cross dropped to death this weekend, I don’t think people have much sympathy for CV drivers. 

Give me a 6 DD game with me driving any BB in the game over one T10 CV. 

Edited by HazardDrake
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I'm just waiting for the change to take place before I give the new mode a go.

Never played it as I wanted to give the other 3 ship types a go before I tried the different lay style, but now I know how they all play I want to give it a go!

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OP: "I want to keep my grossly overpower CVs just the way they are."

I don't see why CVs are even in the game.  They add no value to the game play.

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You couldnt have put into words better what i had in mind all this time.

Balancing ships to please the less skilled player base is always a bad idea, no matter which game. Graf Zepellin is here to show that, when devs only gave hears to them and totally forgot in-game balance (i know there are good CV players with GZ, so obviously, im not including u in this group).

Edit: "but CVs are overpowered and their players are evil and sadistic!"

But avoiding to be alone, make AA builds for the ships, learn proper evasive manuvers the average player doesnt want...

Edited by Cpt_JM_Nascimento
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2 minutes ago, BurglarOfBanff_ff said:

OP: "I want to keep my grossly overpower CVs just the way they are."

I don't see why CVs are even in the game.  They add no value to the game play.

Just by having planes in the air spotting, they break the poisonous, desperate "spot but don't be spotted" meta that has seized the PVP modes by the throat.  

ANYTHING that breaks the "vision dance" is good for the game.

 

 

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well i have played the test and i am looking forward to the rework. yes things still need to be worked out. they are still working out balance on some of the ships too. as for some of the silly things like the focusing of AA from port side to planes on the starboard, it is a game and some things are going to be strange. ask about ground scale to figure scale in a mini game some time. when they took away the manual drops in low tier i bought the saipan to practice with and try to learn. that said i feel i stink at CV play and it needs fixed. if 1 player is 20% better than the other it is a blow out. CV sniping has always been a thing. 

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They need to change CV play as soon as they can it is to strong. It’s not fun when your ship gets deleted from a manual drop right away because there is nothing you can do about it. 

Edited by Lonewolfpj
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5 minutes ago, Lonewolfpj said:

They need to change CV play as soon as they can it is to strong. It’s not fun when your ship gets deleted from a manual drop right away because there is nothing you can do about it. 

Change how manual drops work (no narrow cone, just location and direction of drop), reduce the max number of TB squadrons a carrier can field, adjust how CV matchmaking works to limit them to one per team and tighter tier spread, etc. 

There are solutions to the problems that don't involve ruining the class for those who already enjoy it as-is.

 

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People would flip out if they did that. More then if they open the game up with the new changes. 

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4 minutes ago, Lonewolfpj said:

People would flip out if they did that. More then if they open the game up with the new changes. 

If so, it would be because the players have given up and no longer care about CVs or playing them at all.

 

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54 minutes ago, Cpt_JM_Nascimento said:

But avoiding to be alone, make AA builds for the ships, learn proper evasive manuvers the average player doesnt want...

The problem with a bunch of random players trying to work together is, and always will be, (regardless of the game) that unless everybody agrees on a course of action, not everybody will be working together, and players have to decide who's doing the right thing, and should be supported, and who's out to lunch and a waste of effort to support.

As far as building for AA, the rework will help encourage that, because most games will have CVs, instead of 1 out of every 4 or 5 games. (how many people would carry radar instead of a plane if DDs were rare?)

Evasive maneuvers are well and good, but don't help a lot against a well-executed strike with multiple squadrons.

But the biggest problem with CVs, is that hardly anyone wants to play them, and you won't fix that by merely tweaking them.

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1 hour ago, New_Horizontal said:

> RTS gameplay is vastly different from normal gameplay other class has to offer, removing this feature mean removing a variety of game and thus dumbing down a game which current CV rework doing. Speaking of RTS, People hates RTS gameplay due to micro/macromanagements and rather see this gone than adapt to it. (I know wows has one of the worst RTS control, but that's because how poorly optimized and engine that not support RTS handling)

The CV RTS thing is [edited]: I love RTS's and this, if it can even be called one, is the WORST example of an RTS I've ever seen. Even worse than End War. Hell, Battalion Wars on the Gamecube was a better RTS. There's little point in maintaining something that is plain awful.

1 hour ago, New_Horizontal said:

> CV is not a completely OP nor broken class, but heavy MM reliance due to how stupid AA/Planes interaction works. If you are thrown into heavy AA MM you might as well quit and play another game because your effect in game was vastly dismissed by AA an on other way around that CV just dominating. The rework doesn't address this and will lead to another mess after rework namely "AA and planes" and "RNG"

At TX they are. Even a semi-competent CV driver can just mow down most targets, including DD's at those tiers. Cross drops need to go.

1 hour ago, New_Horizontal said:

> New gameplay of CV encourage sniping and spamming planes against surface ships which is frustrating for targeted ships if they keep getting attacked and rely on their AA and with no fighter control, Defend a sniping is virtually impossible. Frustrating to know that you cannot stop CV sniping with new rework.

I think the intention is to encourage ships to group up, so that AA can be combined to create no-fly zones. If players figure this out and COMPLY is a whole other thing, but the intention is not without merits.

1 hour ago, New_Horizontal said:

> Catering less skilled playerbase will kill the game in the long run because the one who really care about the game is skilled one since they spent a lot of time and money into this game and even bother to get good at it. most Good players can deal with CV problem but not the lesser ones

What the barreling [edited] does this even mean? For one, you are conflating, without evidence, that skilled players pay more. Seeing Derpitz's and the new MassFail's flooding T8, I can say that skill need not apply to wallet warriors. And IDK that the new system is less skilled because the OLD system wasn't THAT skilled to start.

 

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1 hour ago, Cpt_JM_Nascimento said:

You couldnt have put into words better what i had in mind all this time.

Balancing ships to please the less skilled player base is always a bad idea, no matter which game. Graf Zepellin is here to show that, when devs only gave hears to them and totally forgot in-game balance (i know there are good CV players with GZ, so obviously, im not including u in this group).

Edit: "but CVs are overpowered and their players are evil and sadistic!"

But avoiding to be alone, make AA builds for the ships, learn proper evasive manuvers the average player doesnt want...

The reality is that people playing strong AA ships with AA builds are still getting nuked by carriers, no matter what they do.  So saying that they're failing vs CVs because they need to "git gud" just doesn't cut it. 

On top of that, why should everyone be forced to use strong AA builds just so that a tiny handful of elitist unicums CV mains can keep playing with their toys and abusing the rest of the player base?  One can be in a DD and be highly maneuverable, and still have no chance in hell against a highly skilled CV main who's just going to cross drop you do death.

No, the game would be much better off for the greatest number of people if WG simply removed carriers from the game.

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4 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

What the barreling [edited] does this even mean? For one, you are conflating, without evidence, that skilled players pay more. Seeing Derpitz's and the new MassFail's flooding T8, I can say that skill need not apply to wallet warriors. And IDK that the new system is less skilled because the OLD system wasn't THAT skilled to start.

So true, RC.  There's no evidence at all that highly skilled players are bigger whales than less skilled players.

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The game will be better off with the rework. Is it perfect no but what we have today is game breaking. And I know from talking to people in my tank clan the current CV system has driven some of them away. The worst thing that happens to new players is they run into a CV seal clubber who just takes our entire teams. 

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10 minutes ago, Crucis said:

So true, RC.  There's no evidence at all that highly skilled players are bigger whales than less skilled players.

True that, I have over 250 ships and am still under 50% win rate. I don't try to stat pad though. I suppose that when I have all the ships, my stats will get better.

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Obviously I'm fully on-board with trashcanning the CV rework. 

But really, I can't see any evidence that there's an overall correlation between player skill and player spending -- for every hardcore player whose racking up wins and spending ducats to collect ships, there's some dim bulb nitwit who is spending 1000s of quid to fail his way up the tiers and crap all over other players' enjoyment by being a dead weight consistently.

 

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2 hours ago, New_Horizontal said:

>  the skill that CV player gathered and mastered for almost 3 years will be wasted.

What a waste...

kRc4sYV.png

Poor lamb.

9S9A852.png

What a tragic waste.

LkGySQ2.png

Maybe 2-3 more years and 200-300 more games is still needed. You're right, cancel rework.

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