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CaptainTeddybear

Matchmaking solution

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No this isn't about Tier 8 in Tier 10 games. A unicum on a Tier 8 is still worth more than 4 potatos on Tier 10s.

This is about a huge decline in quality games at Tier 10 due to the growing discrepancy in skill. It is fairly common now for half your team to have no clue how the game works. Example, Yamato firing HE at a Des Moines 2 km away because he is nose in.

There are 2 solutions for this and both involved skill based matchmaking. The first, which would still have issues but is an improvement, would be just balance the teams as best as possible with an algorithm that uses XP, damage done and frags. There are several problems with this which is why it would be my second choice but it would still be an improvement.

The preferred solution is group players into 2-3 leagues. Three would be preferable but I'm not sure there are enough players. However I do think there are enough players for two leagues. Two leagues would split the player base into unicums and average players, and potatos and average players and would improve the experience for everybody.

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While I agree the "stream-roll meta" does get extremely tiresome I have to point out this has been brought up a bazillion times and once the forum wakes up you're probably going to get ripped apart...prepare.

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51 minutes ago, HeathenForay said:

While I agree the "stream-roll meta" does get extremely tiresome I have to point out this has been brought up a bazillion times and once the forum wakes up you're probably going to get ripped apart...prepare.

High tier games have never been as bad as they are now.

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I think if you were to do this then a lot of players would get upset because there stats would get worse. If you have a bunch of really good players going at it then there numbers will drop. 

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20 minutes ago, Lonewolfpj said:

I think if you were to do this then a lot of players would get upset because there stats would get worse. If you have a bunch of really good players going at it then there numbers will drop. 

I'm not sure that's true on 2 counts. I'm not sure their stats would drop since nobody is good enough to carry 6 potatos and I'd be surprised if there are many people that care more about stats than quality games.

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Every other game has even a soft MMR, but for some reason the dullards here think that it, like a +-1 MM, will put Queue times in the hours (without any basis for that).

The only other 'reason' some people don't want an MMR is that it shifts the 'skills/stats' meta away from WR since it more or less forces the vast majority of people to trend towards 50%.

Edited by _RC1138
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8 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

and I'd be surprised if there are many people that care more about stats than quality games.

Prepare to be surprised: the good old days of playing games for fun are dead on the road behind behind persistent stats. Everyone's a damn tourneyfag now.

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11 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

I'm not sure that's true on 2 counts. I'm not sure their stats would drop since nobody is good enough to carry 6 potatos and I'd be surprised if there are many people that care more about stats than quality games.

It's a mathematical certainty. In your 3 leagues example, the top third of players are being paired against each other, but there is only 50% of wins to go around for a group that previously did consistently better. Somebody is not going to win as much.

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19 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Prepare to be surprised: the good old days of playing games for fun are dead on the road behind behind persistent stats. Everyone's a damn tourneyfag now.

Yup, I remember playing BF1942: Forgotten Hope ceaselessly for a couple years, and the only stats were points, kills, and deaths. And they weren't persistent.

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19 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Every other game has even a soft MMR, but for some reason the dullards here think that it, like a +-1 MM, will put Queue times in the hours (without any basis for that).

The only other 'reason' some people don't want an MMR is that it shifts the 'skills/stats' meta away from WR since it more or less forces the vast majority of people to trend towards 50%.

Lots of games don't use a rating MM system.   I don't recall people saying hour long queues, but, they'd go up somewhat.  Considering how people whine about 2 and 4  minute waits...

Shift from the WR meta, and you'll get nothing but damage padders.  None of the habits for players will change.

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Every time you change game play mechanics with anything meta, game experience the roller-coaster of skill as the population either adjusts to the meta or rejects it.  We're few months into the Cruiser Line split (HE span and RADAR) and there has been some serious "issues" with this major change....  Roles are no longer possible for one class of ships and that effect has rippled throughout the entire game.

Many have left the game.  I know a dozen of them or so and talked to them last night on team speak (playing ARK or one of the "civilization" games???).....  The discrepancy of skill and the radar meta was too much.....so, they left and remain playing as a group.  As these types of examples continue, the skill gap will only widen, speed up and grow creating even wider game play issues...  We are creating an "Us versus Them" community (new vs. vets...no average players)  Several other games are in the middle of this effect; i.e. Mechwarrior Online is experiencing the later stages of this effect where the population is so low that you can't find enough players outside of Prime Times to play......  And, when you do, stomps are the every game norm.

What Alvin Toffler alluded to his seminal work "Future Shock" is upon us:  "that once a culture is exposed to a technology it can not rapidly adjust to; that challenges norms; and, disrupts how cultures communicate (roles), the culture itself "fights" the changes and for a long time, that culture remains broken"  (Paraphrased...)  It's called "Adaptive Friction"..................  We are there.  Fight or flee is in effect.  The skill gap will speed up as the flee grows and inside the game, tension will rise as those left will fight for what they use to believe in or to retain the power they had before using mastered skills......

By the way, the only solution is either go back or create a Combat Effectiveness (CE) metric and use it.

Edited by Asym_KS

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31 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Yup, I remember playing BF1942: Forgotten Hope ceaselessly for a couple years, and the only stats were points, kills, and deaths. And they weren't persistent.

You had a PC that could run FH without frequent crashing? Lucky you.

Of course, you forget the BF1942 DC Combat games where everyone was camping the jets, only to fly into the ground 20 seconds later on their first strafing run while someone was sniping them with a Barret at max draw distance. :cap_old:

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59 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Every other game has even a soft MMR, but for some reason the dullards here think that it, like a +-1 MM, will put Queue times in the hours (without any basis for that).

The only other 'reason' some people don't want an MMR is that it shifts the 'skills/stats' meta away from WR since it more or less forces the vast majority of people to trend towards 50%.

Scrapping the shared spotting system would be far more effective. Make it so you only see enemies rendered if an ally within ~6-8k spots them. Everything else only shows on the minimap.

No more sniping short range cruisers from across the map. BBs still get to beat up on each other. 

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Put all the Unicums into one 'League', and only half of them will be unicums soon. Please leave it as is. The stomps are rather brief, then move on to the next battle.

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54 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

You had a PC that could run FH without frequent crashing? Lucky you.

Always been lucky that way. I never have an awesome rig, but I've never had any issues with a game, even when running a bit under the minimum requirements.

Except for Planetside 1. I could play it for as long as I wanted, but once I logged out, I had to reinstall the game (3 CDs) to play again lol.

54 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Of course, you forget the BF1942 DC Combat games where everyone was camping the jets, only to fly into the ground 20 seconds later on their first strafing run while someone was sniping them with a Barret at max draw distance. :cap_old:

TBH, I never had an issue with that myself, I knew better than to camp the airfield lol.

DC was ok, but I liked FH a lot better. Snipers being a rare pickup kit instead of spawnable, and grenades not able to damage tanks, were probably the main reasons, as well as more lethal small arms keeping bunnyhopping and such to a minimum.

 

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7 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Always been lucky that way. I never have an awesome rig, but I've never had any issues with a game, even when running a bit under the minimum requirements.

Except for Planetside 1. I could play it for as long as I wanted, but once I logged out, I had to reinstall the game (3 CDs) to play again lol.

TBH, I never had an issue with that myself, I knew better than to camp the airfield lol.

DC was ok, but I liked FH a lot better. Snipers being a rare pickup kit instead of spawnable, and grenades not able to damage tanks, were probably the main reasons, as well as more lethal small arms keeping bunnyhopping and such to a minimum.

 

All I remember is having to play with the brightness cranked because there was no auto heal and I would end a fight on a sliver of health and couldn’t see anything. Then I would either die or the game would crash. 

If the crashing didn’t make me quit, the requirement to play medic class to avoid running into trees would have. 

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1 hour ago, HazardDrake said:

Scrapping the shared spotting system would be far more effective. Make it so you only see enemies rendered if an ally within ~6-8k spots them. Everything else only shows on the minimap.

No more sniping short range cruisers from across the map. BBs still get to beat up on each other. 

While I would like that as a cruiser player, it would break the current balance. Not without upping BB accuracy to near perfect levels as it would render them impotent in most situations.

Edited by _RC1138

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31 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

All I remember is having to play with the brightness cranked because there was no auto heal and I would end a fight on a sliver of health and couldn’t see anything. Then I would either die or the game would crash. 

If the crashing didn’t make me quit, the requirement to play medic class to avoid running into trees would have. 

Are you talking about DC?

FH didn't typically have a spawnable medic, they were rare pickup kits like snipers, except for the Karelia (Russians vs. Finns) map.

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30 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Are you talking about DC?

FH didn't typically have a spawnable medic, they were rare pickup kits like snipers, except for the Karelia (Russians vs. Finns) map.

I must be mixing up my 1942 mods then. All I remember about FH is the great intro screen, constant crashing, and getting pissed at not being able to see a damm thing as soon as I took any damage.

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3 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

I must be mixing up my 1942 mods then. All I remember about FH is the great intro screen, constant crashing, and getting pissed at not being able to see a damm thing as soon as I took any damage.

That's truly a shame. I've never played an FPS that felt so "right", and didn't give twitch gamers a big advantage.

I played it for Battlefield 2 as well, early on when there were only a few maps. Enjoyed it too, but I had to reformat my HDD, and couldn't find my BF2 CD key..... :(

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2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

Every time you change game play mechanics with anything meta, game experience the roller-coaster of skill as the population either adjusts to the meta or rejects it.  We're few months into the Cruiser Line split (HE span and RADAR) and there has been some serious "issues" with this major change....  Roles are no longer possible for one class of ships and that effect has rippled throughout the entire game

                

Until the recent MM adjustment, I was seeing a lot of T8-10 battles, and recently it has only been 1-3 radars per side most battles, and even then, all a DD has to be is smart about their ship placement. The era of heavy radar was only a temporary shift due to an event and new line release. People that left the game over it were using it as an excuse. Being someone who is a better DD player now than I was before the split, I can't say I care much for the opinion of the players that did leave, because they likely would have just left over anything else that changed, or even a lack of change.

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21 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

That's truly a shame. I've never played an FPS that felt so "right", and didn't give twitch gamers a big advantage.

I played it for Battlefield 2 as well, early on when there were only a few maps. Enjoyed it too, but I had to reformat my HDD, and couldn't find my BF2 CD key..... :(

TBH, it's one of the first games I remember with the ridiculously short time to kill that seems to have been the trend over the last decade plus. A broken design choice that required the now ubiquitous auto-regenerating health.

I wasn't staring at a mostly black screen all the time because I was winning fights, it was because the twitch shooters would get the first shot in. Even if I got behind cover, there was no coming back, due to the gimped vision. 

IMHO, twitch shooters had the biggest advantage in FH over the other BF mods. Interesting how two players can have such different opinions on a game. :cap_old:

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2 hours ago, HazardDrake said:

TBH, it's one of the first games I remember with the ridiculously short time to kill that seems to have been the trend over the last decade plus. A broken design choice that required the now ubiquitous auto-regenerating health.

I wasn't staring at a mostly black screen all the time because I was winning fights, it was because the twitch shooters would get the first shot in. Even if I got behind cover, there was no coming back, due to the gimped vision. 

IMHO, twitch shooters had the biggest advantage in FH over the other BF mods. Interesting how two players can have such different opinions on a game. :cap_old:

Perhaps I'm not using the right terminology. I'm thinking of it from the perspective of being armed with a bolt action rifle, and spotting an enemy with an SMG a block away at the same time he sees me.

In CoD, or vanilla BF42, I'm done, because that player can hop around and "spray and pray", until he gets close enough that he can't miss. I might have time for 3 shots max, and I have to hit all 3 to get him.

In FH, I only need 1 shot, (assuming centre mass or a headshot) so his ability to bounce around does him less good.

I think why it works for FH, and not so much for others, is the FH design choice, that if you're moving, you aren't hitting anything. (hindering the ability of the SMG player to "spray and pray") To kill enemies, you've got to stop moving, preferably behind some cover. IOW, the devs wanted to slow the pace of the vanilla game down somewhat.

I think that the problem you notice with later games, is that they took the fast TTK, but didn't hammer the crap out of on-the-move accuracy. (to keep the action "quick" for mainstream playerbases)

I think there might have been another design decision too. In FH, you weren't supposed to survive for long, and you were supposed to die many, many times. IMO, this offset the tendency for largely stationary shooting to stagnate the battle, as you had a constant stream of respawns able to come at things from another direction. As well, for the most part, the most accurate and damaging regular weapons with the longest range, had the worst ROF.

It was certainly frustrating until I got used to the quick TTK, but bliss after that.

It is too bad you had that darkening screen issue. 

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I guess I will have to a poll of whether people prefer a high win rate and crap games or a lower win rate and good games. I suspect the the non-posters would universally prefer better games.

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Still going to remain an issue as long as this game resists what most major multiplayer games do; making skill a part of the MM formula.  Regardless WG has said again and again since WoT that they'll never do that because unicums don't want it to happen.  Now I don't trust anything that WG says beyond the moment, but they have been pretty consistent on this one, so ROFLstomps will always be a regular part of WG titles.

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