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Ace_04

IFHE for Jutland/Daring?

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Good morning all,

First of all, I must say, I've really enjoyed the trek up the British DD tech tree line so far.....didn't expect to like it this much.  I'm at Jutland now.

Just a quick question about Jutland and Daring: do you think IFHE is a must for these ships?  I ran IFHE on my commander all the way up to T6, but then swapped it out for RPF, as I like to use these ships as DD hunters.  However, I find myself missing RPF quite a bit now.  

Thoughts?

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IFHE is needed in my limited experience, anybody half decent will angle against your AP and you'll end up doing almost no damage. RPF is nice to have on Daring with it's bad concealment for her speed, but Jutland seemed alright without it when I played through her.

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Yes...for those 113mm (T9/10)to do consistent damage IFHE is important at high tier.   Armor at high tier is very good, so IFHE helps overcome that problem.   As for the T8 and below, IFHE is not as important.

 

vr

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I haven't gotten there yet Ace, but from my understanding they scale really really well with IFHE. Considering the small calibre, it's kinda needed if you wanna do more than just roll the dice on fires.

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My Haragumo uses both. That does preclude some other perks, but having guns on target and doing extra damage is worth it on that boat. I am planning to obtain IFHE on the Cossack at 14 commander points. After that, IDK about RDF. A long time from 14 to 18.

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36 minutes ago, Canadatron said:

I haven't gotten there yet Ace, but from my understanding they scale really really well with IFHE. Considering the small calibre, it's kinda needed if you wanna do more than just roll the dice on fires.

Well, with Demo Expert and flags, you can get that fire chance up to 11%, which is very impressive for a DD.

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Just now, Ace_04 said:

Well, with Demo Expert and flags, you can get that fire chance up to 11%, which is very impressive for a DD.

110%. All I was getting at is that it's a this or that kinda proposition! If you're cool with being a fire farmer and it being your main source of salt mining, have at it! 

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Hell yes.

I pumped salvo after salvo into a Fletcher broadside at close range using HE (without IFHE) and it hardly scratched his paint.

If you want your HE rounds to be effective, IFHE is a must have for these ships. Daring is extremely hampered without it.

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Just now, BattlecruiserOperational said:

Yes, as you need it to melt DDs, which is in my opinion what the Daring excels at.

This is along the lines of my thought process. The line is intended to be an Anti-DD DD, and you cannot properly anti DD the DD if your guns don't hurt the DD you're hitting. 

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should get the Cossack today need one Guinness, is that also a IFHE ship?

Image result for guinness beer

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6 minutes ago, APA_204 said:

should get the Cossack today need one Guinness, is that also a IFHE ship?

Image result for guinness beer

No need for IFHE on Cossack, it is needed for Jutland/Daring to do consistent damage.

 

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5 minutes ago, APA_204 said:

should get the Cossack today need one Guinness, is that also a IFHE ship?

 

It's not necessary on Cossack, I run it but I'll respec for RDF at the next free opportunity.

Cossack's 120mm guns penetrate the 19mm of top tier destroyer hulls (with the exceptions of a bit of plate on Gearing and, of course, Khabarovsk's 50mm). Thus you can still be highly effective in your key role of destroyer hunting.

IFHE does allow you to do more damage to the 25mm armor of T6-T7 battleships when you're top tier, and to the 25mm hulls of most T8+ cruisers. It does not however help against T8+ battleships or German/US heavy cruisers T8+ or against RN CL which you penetrate without it.

 

 

As for Daring/Jutland, IFHE is 100% mandatory in my opinion

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1 minute ago, Camo68 said:

No need for IFHE on Cossack, it is needed for Jutland/Daring to do consistent damage.

 

damn, need another captain then

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I have dedicated captains for the Jutland/Daring and share my Lightening captain with the Cossack

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IFHE on the Daring is only useful against enemy DD's. It still does not allow you to pen the hulls of T10 Cruisers and only the SS of BB's. In theory you should be using AP instead and not need HE. I suspect though, due to the meh performance of the Daring, it will get the treatment the IJN 100mm gunned DD's have and a baked in 1/4 pen, which will still leave it impotent against most Cruisers but will make IFHE give them the nessasary boost to hit them:

Current:

w/o IFHE:

1/6*113=18.833 or 18mm (you don't round up, you round down to nearest whole number)

1/6*113*1.3=24.483 or 24mm of pen (non USN Cruiser/KM cruisers get 25 mm of plating, TX DD's have 19mm of plating)

So IFHE only grants the ability to pen T8+ DD's hulls

Now, assuming they give the Daring Baked in IFHE like the Akizuki, it will become:

w/o Captain skills IFHE:

1/4*113=28.25 or 28mm, enough to pen all DD's and CA/CL's at T8+

w/ IFHE:

1/4*113*1.3=36.75 or 36 mm of pen, not useful as no ship has <36mm of armor but >28mm.

So in short, baring the *current* Daring vs. T8+ DD's, there is no circumstance where IFHE makes sense: it will never grant you enough pen to pen any other Ship type at it's tier spread and even if WGing buffs the Daring to get the 1/4 pen that many other low calibre gunboats have, it will not gain you any other advantage. Basically, save your 4 points for something else, I suggest 3 Tier 3 skills (TAE, SI, and DE) + 1 more T1 skill (PT or PM, whichever you didn't take initially).

My current Daring Capt (19 points) is speced like this:

T1: PT, PM

T2: SSE, LS (I like SSE as it makes it easier to enter your own, short duration smoke while slowing down)

T3: TAE, SI, DE

T4: CE

As far as sharing the Daring's capt with Cossack:

w/o IFHE:

120*1/6= 20mm

This get's you, by default, over the threshold of every DD it can face, but under every cruisers T8+

w/ IFHE

120*1/6*1.3= 26mm

This gets you every Cruiser that does not use 27 mm plating (obviously) so all non-USN/KM cruisers. Also T7 and below BB's hulls

IMO this is of dubious usefulness, and those 4 points are spent elsewhere, much like the Daring. Also, I think the Daring needs a buff. IDK if it's baking in 1/4 pen although that would be welcome, I think that was [edited] on the IJN DD's and think it would be bull here (although it is most likely). Personally, I'd like to see something unique on RN DD's and that being they get RN Cruiser style Heals: basically the ability to print new boats several times. This would make them ACTUAL interesting Anti-DD DD's as it would mean they could bounce bake and forth, whittling down enemy DD's, and if they are not cut down, they keep coming back strong as ever. And in the case of the Daring, this is sorely needed, as she tends to take more hits than other DD's due to her bad size/speed combo. I like the idea of a semi-AP heavy use DD but her surviability holds her back from being valid in this role. RN Cruiser heal would pretty much solve that.

Edited by _RC1138

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3 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

Good morning all,

First of all, I must say, I've really enjoyed the trek up the British DD tech tree line so far.....didn't expect to like it this much.  I'm at Jutland now.

Just a quick question about Jutland and Daring: do you think IFHE is a must for these ships?  I ran IFHE on my commander all the way up to T6, but then swapped it out for RPF, as I like to use these ships as DD hunters.  However, I find myself missing RPF quite a bit now.  

Thoughts?

 

It is a definite "yes" with regards to IFHE. If you end up facing off with an enemy DD and they come at you, angled or not, you're gonna be in trouble without it. IFHE will also also low you to absolutely punish everybody, all the time. The AP is grear, but still very quite limited in angling situations. With the Darings ROF you start PLENTY of fire without DE. DE is a wasted skill on the Daring. Anybody who says IFHE is only good for hunting DDs is out of touch with the ship and is gimping themselves.

I normally use RPF as well but I took it off my Daring. I still greatly miss it, but without IFHE you aren't much of a threat, especially at tier X. You could take CE/RPF/IFHE and see how it works for you though. I've been considering it since I actively hunt enemy DDs, rather than passively. It's a "defensive" DD, but your offensive firepower is absolutely no joke.

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15 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

IFHE on the Daring is only useful against enemy DD's.

Given that the primary task for the Daring and Jutland is gun fighting with other DDs IFHE makes a lot of sense. The torps are too short ranged and slow reloading to focus on them, and the AP while having improved angles is still 113mm AP, it's not going to win an gun duels with a CA/CL.

Edited by VeatherVitch

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6 minutes ago, VeatherVitch said:

Given that the primary task for the Daring and Jutland is gun fighting with other DDs IFHE makes a lot of sense. The torps are too short ranged and slow reloading to focus on them, and the AP while having improved angles is still 113mm AP, it's not going to win an gun duels with a CA/CL.

It also won't win many gun duels with enemy DDs when they approach you head on. 

A Daring without IFHE is a gimped Daring.

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11 minutes ago, VeatherVitch said:

113mm AP, it's not going to win an gun duels with a CA/CL.

Even w/ IFHE you won't win gun duels against most CA/CL's since it cannot pen USN CA/CL's/KM CA/CL's. And vs. DD's the AP is better.

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4 minutes ago, Schindlers_Stink_Fist said:

A Daring without IFHE is a gimped Daring.

If you do the actual math, you see that's [edited].

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51 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

w/ IFHE:

1/4*113*1.3=36.75 or 36 mm of pen, not useful as no ship has <36mm of armor but >28mm.

T8+ BBs have 32mm bow/stern/deck armor, which falls right in the middle of that <36mm and >28mm range you gave.  IFHE and 1/4 HE pen in the Daring would give it a much larger area to cause damage against BBs without having to rely on fires or torpedoes.

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31 minutes ago, Schindlers_Stink_Fist said:

 

Math doesn't save you from head-on or angled ships. IFHE does.

No it doesn't: 113*1.3*1/6= 24mm. The ONLY ships you face in a Daring with <=24mm of plating are other DD's. Point of Fact IFHE *only* helps vs. DD's. You could have a broadside cruiser at 2 km and *0* of your HE shells will do damage at anything but the SS. And the AP on the Daring is capable of pening all but overmatch angled DD's (in which case it's a straight bow on fight and the Daring has unmatched RoF and can just slam the SS on DD's). IFHE is a WASTE of points on the Daring.

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41 minutes ago, Deno said:

T8+ BBs have 32mm bow/stern/deck armor, which falls right in the middle of that <36mm and >28mm range you gave.  IFHE and 1/4 HE pen in the Daring would give it a much larger area to cause damage against BBs without having to rely on fires or torpedoes.

doh, you're right. Well then it makes the idea of a 1/4 pen Daring very useful, however it could pass into OP territory under that circumstance.

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