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garion13a5

Not worth playing high tier destroyers now

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There is so much radar that its not worth playing high tier torpedo boats.  The only destroyers worth playing are gun boats and essentially cruisers.

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Or just understand how to play them. Gearing, the Zeds, Fletcher, even the new RN dds are strong hybrids. 

Dont rush caps. Learn how to spot. Use guns and torps. Know your strengths and use them. 

Sometimes the best thing a dd can do is spot the red team. I have won a lot of CB where my YY or gearing never fires her guns or lands a torpedo but the rewards are seeet

Edited by wstugamd
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What wstugmd said.  I am playing Fletcher and having much fun.  My only complaint is that it is slower the Benson.  My best advice is not to rush caps early.  Even with support it can cost you 50% hp to secure a cap.

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You need to learn how to play DD in higher tiers then. I exclusively play higher tier DDs fletch and gearing specifically. Awesome ships and I do well in those unless i have a tater team who dont know how to shoot the targets i spot or dont know who they are supposed to kill first

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1 hour ago, garion13a5 said:

There is so much radar that its not worth playing high tier torpedo boats.  The only destroyers worth playing are gun boats and essentially cruisers.

There are two options that you could explore.

One, play defensively. Don't rush the cap. Be patient. Spot and smoke for capital ships. Only shoot when you have to. Your stealth is your advantage, don't be quick to give it away. Think ahead and plot your escape route before you get to where your going incase your screen lights up with the dreaded radar warning. 

Second, if you want to try a different approach. Sail a BB. 16" +/- AP is a very effective way to counteract radar cruisers. Rock, paper, scissors.

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1 hour ago, garion13a5 said:

There is so much radar that its not worth playing high tier torpedo boats.  The only destroyers worth playing are gun boats and essentially cruisers.

Gee, I wonder how I was able to do nearly 150k damage with my AsashioB earlier today with all that radar. And no, I didn't do it by long range sniping with the 20k torps.  I did it at fairly moderate to shorter ranges.

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You know, if you try to be kinda passive-aggressive, you can deal some good damage, especially now that IJN DD received their buff. Just yesterday, I decided to take my Yuugumo with only 11pt captain (my main IJN DD captain is on Shimakaze) and I managed to outgun a Kitakaze. Today, I outgunned an Akizuki in my Shima.  

Also, the fire chance. If you can land a torps and cause a flood, you can just gunboat in the open until you start a fire or 2. It's pretty rare to receive full pen on normal IJN DD but now that BB AP only overpen DD, you don't need to worry about that single shell that cause 8k damage because it hits your stern. 

Really, IJN DD line now are even better at ambushing ennemi DD and deal a lot of damage in the opening volley.

 

Spoiler

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23 hours ago, Crucis said:

Gee, I wonder how I was able to do nearly 150k damage with my AsashioB earlier today with all that radar. And no, I didn't do it by long range sniping with the 20k torps.  I did it at fairly moderate to shorter ranges.

 

DWT are invisible kappa

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Destroyers are fine at high tiers, it is just a different set of threats from mid tier play.

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On 11/25/2018 at 3:31 AM, garion13a5 said:

There is so much radar that its not worth playing high tier torpedo boats.  The only destroyers worth playing are gun boats and essentially cruisers.

then use the guns on your torpedo boats, IJN dds have recieved a he buff recently btw. So Asashio-Shima gun boat style is supposed to work quite well. (I have had recent fun with Asashio, relying on the guns)

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1 hour ago, AlcatrazNC said:

 

 

DWT are invisible kappa

My point was that I managed to be successful, in spite of the presence of radar.  I was able to do my job.  Would I have done less damage if I'd have been in, for example, a Harekaze?  Perhaps, but my ability to do my job would have been unchanged, only my ability to do damage.

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Japanese Torpedoes are the WORST in the game. You have a choice between impossible to use 8km torps, below average 12km torps (4.5km less range and higher detection than American 16.5km torps) or 20km torps that are very slow and has twice the detection range of everything else. Its a bad-bad-bad list of options.

Japanese DDs also have the slowest turning and low rate of fire guns.

With the exception of the Shimakaze, Japanese DDs are also slow.

If you go with the Asashio for Deep Water Torps to get around the high detect or craprange, these can't hit CLs and CAs whereas Pan Asian ones can.

Such is the price you pay for 0.2~0.4km better surface detection range -- which today isn't even better than the Brits.

The recent buffs bring Japanese DDs from terrible to bad. And, this is from a player who took the Hatsuharu, Shiratsuyu and the Shimakaze to Rank 1 in separate seasons.

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I'm gonna agree with @dwightlooi here, in the general case, for IJN DDs at T8+.

There are multiple causes:

  1. Massive proliferation of detection capability:  most games have 2-3 radars per side, and half the rest of the team has (and runs) Hydro. 
  2. A far more skilled userbase, capable of successfully countering all the very-well-known DD tactics.
  3. A complete lack of NEW tactics for the DDs to use. Making them predictable, and thus counter-able.
  4. Newer DD lines (and buffs to existing ones) removing virtually all of the IJN DD's prime advantage:  stealth.
  5. Stupidly nerfed torpedo detection ranges.

T8+ IJN DDs are very, very frustrating to play for the large majority of the player base, which is why the only people who play them now are essentially the elite.  Which heavily skews the perception of their "balance".  IJN DDs are in no way balanced - they uniformly perform in the bottom half of the pack, despite having most players in the top 10% of skill, and are generally the least-feared DD.

The sad thing here is that can easily be fixed, all while maintaining balance in the games as a whole.

  1. Renormalize all the DD detection ranges. They've been screwed up for over 2 years now, with inconsistencies all over the place. National Flavors need to be adhered to and strictly defined.  IJN DDs should have full-concealment advantages over every other possible DD opponent by a minimum of 0.25km.
  2. Fix the damned torpedoes.  Drop detection on them by 20% and narrow the stupid spread dispersion by 25%.  To keep it in balance, nerf the damage by 25% or so.  The result:  more hits, with about the same amount of actual damage caused.

The key here to getting them back to relevancy is to have a DD that an AVERAGE T8 player can score a half-dozen torp hits with in a 20-minute game, all while doing only slightly more damage than the current server average. That number right now stands at 2-3 hits per game, which is exceedingly frustrating for the average player.  Saying "use your guns" is a non-sequiteur - the IJN is a torp-focused line, and you SHOULD NOT have to use you guns to have any real impact on the game.  In the same way that if the Khab's guns were suddenly nerfed 50% and the advice to increase its relevancy was not to fix the guns, but to have Khab players "use your torps" more. 

 

(of course, fixing radar is a completely different discussion)

Edited by LAnybody
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It is relatively easy to fix IJN Torpedoes. The three choices high tier Torps (not all available to all DDs of course) should be:-

  • Type F3  -- 8 km range / 76 knots / 21,366 dmg (1.8 km detect)
  • Type F3  -- 12 km range / 72 knots / 20,966 dmg (1.7 km detect)
  • Type 93 mod 3 -- 12 km range / 67 knots/ 23,766 dmg (1.7 km detect)
  • Type 93 mod 3 -- 16 km range / 67 knots/ 20,966 dmg (1.7 km detect)
  • Type 93 -- 16 km range / 62 knots / 20,966 dmg (2.5 km detect)
  • Type 93 (DW) -- 16 km range / 67 knots / 20,966 dmg (0.9 km detect; hits BB/CV/CA/CL only)

 For reference these are the American Mk 17 torpedo stats:-

  • Mk17 -- 16.5 km / 66 knots / 17,900 dmg (1.4 km detect)

Notice that I did not ask for anything for nothing.

  1. 610mm Torpedo damages are nerfed and equalized
  2. All 610mm torpedo detection ranges are the same (except the DWs)
  3. The F3 is a 5 knots faster version of the "mainstream" Type 93 mod 3 but loses 4km in range
  4. The "mainstream" Type93 mod 3 gains 4km range but loses 2.8K damage* (vs the current version)
  5. The "deep water" 16km Type 93 option replaces the 20km option, trading ability to hit DDs for stealth
  6. Players essentially get a choice between Fast, Normal and Deep settings for their 610mm Type 93 (the most famous torp in WWII)
  7. Players can apply Torpedo Acceleration to get a 72 knots torpedo with slightly better range than the new F3 but it takes 2 skill points
  8. Players can also apply Torpedo Acceleration to get a 77 knots 9.6km torpedo, but it takes 2 skill points

* Note: The "new" Type 93s are superior to the USN Mk17, having about the same range, about the same speed, but about 3K more damage. As it should be both because it is a 610mm torpedo (vs 533mm) and given that the US DDs much faster guns and far better AA.

Edited by dwightlooi

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Started playing when the American CA line came on board so radar has been the only meta that I have known. Got no problem with radar. I play mostly high tier dds and you just play differently. Do your job and you will win plenty of games. And, my highest damage to date are with the Kitakami, Fletcher and Lightning. You deal with it and adjust. Not a real problem. I hate 4 carrier games a lot more than I do radar loaded games. 

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On 11/25/2018 at 7:55 PM, AlcatrazNC said:

You know, if you try to be kinda passive-aggressive, you can deal some good damage, especially now that IJN DD received their buff. Just yesterday, I decided to take my Yuugumo with only 11pt captain (my main IJN DD captain is on Shimakaze) and I managed to outgun a Kitakaze. Today, I outgunned an Akizuki in my Shima.  

Also, the fire chance. If you can land a torps and cause a flood, you can just gunboat in the open until you start a fire or 2. It's pretty rare to receive full pen on normal IJN DD but now that BB AP only overpen DD, you don't need to worry about that single shell that cause 8k damage because it hits your stern. 

Really, IJN DD line now are even better at ambushing ennemi DD and deal a lot of damage in the opening volley.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

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DWT are invisible kappa

I'd never pick a gun fight in the Shima unless I have some sort of advantage going in.

That being said, the guns are quit usable.

 

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Right now as it stands with the AP changes, BRrit cruisers and DDs who are the lightest armored ships. Are brutal to play in the mid and high tiers. I have to re learn because getting deleted from BBs from across the map OR out side my Main battery range.That is my rag inducing part of the latest patch changes.

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I’m having a lot of fun playing asashio on the edge of caps spotting, torping BB at 10 -15 km so they have a hard time supporting their team, influencing the direction of the enemy fleet like a sheep dog, chipping in with guns on low health targets, plinking ships with guns when they are shooting someone else and going dark when they turn their guns my way, and when the opportunity is right taking the cap.

Im having the most fun I’ve had in a while in this game playing DD, radar is not really a big issue if your patient and are good at keeping track of radar ship movements and know their typical parking spots 

Edited by Visidious

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