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hyuuu

Reduce captain skill point for manual secondaries to make it "competitive"

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It seems that the consensus about secondary builds is that they're uncompetitive in the current meta and I think that's mainly due to how expensive it is to even get a minimum viable secondary build working.

Four points for a skill that offers such a situational benefit (with a huge drawback of only firing at one target at a time) is often far too costly to give up in favor for literally the most important skill, concealment expert (or fire prevention for higher tier BBs).

With the sale of Mass, I'm sure more and more people are finding genuine enjoyment with running secondary build BBs.
It's a shame that the German BB line that sacrifices so much of its main gunpower consistency has to rely on such expensive all or nothing secondary builds to be viable.
Because of how deadly the upper tiers are, most practical GK builds end up going fire prevention anyways because manual secondaries is far too costly take on for how infrequently they'll end up being used.

Perhaps if we dropped the skill cost to 3 or even 2, we could see more flexible and interesting hybrid secondary builds being more viable, which would reward well timed aggressive plays more than stagnant high tier BB ranged standoffs. 

If manual secondaries was placed at a level 2 skill, you could start running decent hybrid secondary builds while maintaining concealment or go for full range without being forced to have minimum 19 point captains.

PT (1) + AR (2) + MS (2) + BFT/SI (3) + CE (4) = 12 pt captain is already a pretty survivable standard BB build with the ability to close in and use its secondary potential without being spotted from space.
And there would be so much more to work around the remaining points a player has ranging from adding IFHE/AFT or giving up CE to go all in secondary build at a lesser cost.

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All my T8 and up secondary builds would like a word with you, especially my ManSec GK(Whose guns, incidentally, are fine, I didn't have any issues with FdG, either). If I'm running a secondary build ship, then its max sec range and in is where I am. That is, after all, the point of a secondary build.

 

Oh, and I use FP on exactly 2 captains. Two. I burn down maybe 1 time a month, and it's almost always because I was stupid, and FP wouldn't have saved my stupid self, anyway. DamCon Mods and BoS work wonders when combined with good use of the old DC2, even more with the fire time reduction flag.

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Oh, and to your point about reducing the number of SPs needed for ManSec, absolutely not. It's a powerful skill, new players shouldn't be allowed to access it after just a couple of rounds.

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1 hour ago, hyuuu said:

It seems that the consensus about secondary builds is that they're uncompetitive in the current meta and I think that's mainly due to how expensive it is to even get a minimum viable secondary build working.

Four points for a skill that offers such a situational benefit (with a huge drawback of only firing at one target at a time) is often far too costly to give up in favor for literally the most important skill, concealment expert (or fire prevention for higher tier BBs).

With the sale of Mass, I'm sure more and more people are finding genuine enjoyment with running secondary build BBs.
It's a shame that the German BB line that sacrifices so much of its main gunpower consistency has to rely on such expensive all or nothing secondary builds to be viable.
Because of how deadly the upper tiers are, most practical GK builds end up going fire prevention anyways because manual secondaries is far too costly take on for how infrequently they'll end up being used.

Perhaps if we dropped the skill cost to 3 or even 2, we could see more flexible and interesting hybrid secondary builds being more viable, which would reward well timed aggressive plays more than stagnant high tier BB ranged standoffs. 

If manual secondaries was placed at a level 2 skill, you could start running decent hybrid secondary builds while maintaining concealment or go for full range without being forced to have minimum 19 point captains.

PT (1) + AR (2) + MS (2) + BFT/SI (3) + CE (4) = 12 pt captain is already a pretty survivable standard BB build with the ability to close in and use its secondary potential without being spotted from space.
And there would be so much more to work around the remaining points a player has ranging from adding IFHE/AFT or giving up CE to go all in secondary build at a lesser cost.

Why would you run concealment on a high tier BB? You can't hide a moving island. 

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10 minutes ago, Capt_h2o said:

Why would you run concealment on a high tier BB? You can't hide a moving island. 

because concealment expert as is, is a great skill for BBs.(we will see after the change)   It helps you disengage when you need it, and is great for surprising enemies who dont know you are there or aiming at them.  Especially when it is a cruiser you out spot.  US tier 8s and 9 Bbs, and RN BBs have fantastic stealth to ambush people.   and on most other BBs, it is still handy.  There is a noticeable difference between having it and not.  Especially if your target does not have it.

 

 

as for manual secondaries.   idk if i agree with a point drop.  I would agree it could use a little love.   Personally, i would change the only fire when targeting someone part.    have the guns auto fire as always, perhaps with a slight boost to accuracy and if you target  someone, they will of course focus them if they can. and you will get the accuracy boost(or a better boost than  autofire) against the selected target.  as is, the skill feels barely better than a side grade. 

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19 minutes ago, Capt_h2o said:

Why would you run concealment on a high tier BB? You can't hide a moving island. 

Cause you can get down to 12-13km detection depending on the BB.  Thats the ideal range for ambush shots with low travel times to delete/deal massive damage to cruisers and BB.  It also means you can disengage easier when you start taking concentrated fire.

Instead of dropping MFC cost they need to add a secondary target for the other side of the ship so we can fire secondaries off both sides.  The biggest draw back to the skill is our secondaries only fire at 1 ship instead of anything within range, where as MAA fires at any plane and just deals enhanced damage to one selected making it a more useful skill on a skill to skill comparison.

Edited by JToney3449

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23 minutes ago, Capt_h2o said:

Why would you run concealment on a high tier BB? You can't hide a moving island. 

idk because you like being able to disengage? and not be burned to the ground?

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58 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Oh, and to your point about reducing the number of SPs needed for ManSec, absolutely not. It's a powerful skill, new players shouldn't be allowed to access it after just a couple of rounds.

Players can already pick MFC at 10 points so weither it cost 4 or 3 pts is not a big deal.  And its skill bonus is cut at lower tiers to boot. MFC is only a powerful skill when backed by all the other secondary enhancing stuff including other skills.  It takes a high point captain to make MFC shine, not something a new person has asap, 16pt captain or so before it really starts to come into its own.

Edited by JToney3449

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Honestly, much as I'm biased to lowering the skill, if it allowed the other side to fire with no accuracy bonus I'd be fine. The main thing they need to fix is the meta because ever since IFHE and Wargaming, per Waterline 3.2, is only just figuring this out, is causing issues with overly consistent unblockable damage that starts fires and melts battleships from behind islands the BB can't shoot over, meaning BB's aren't getting in to secondary range, even when that range is 11-12 km. 

That or say screw it and give secondary batteries the same ranges as main battery counterparts of the tier. 150+ cm guns (least higher tier turrets over the waterline) getting around 15-20 km ranges while 127 mm guns are maybe getting 10-12. I they won't or can't bring us to the enemy, well, then let us deliver to them. Still gives ships like German BB's and Yamato secondary edges they've always had with the question being a ship like Mass being on par with it's piers (maybe a faster reload and/or more accurate to compensate and keep i being more secondary based). 

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I'm fairly certain that many classes would enjoy their most used skills to be reduced in price, but is it really good for balance? Heck, there are plenty of ships that would love IFHE or Radio Location to slide right into the build but it could have game breaking potential. This is a really big ask.

Then there is WanderingGhost and his mega buff to secondaries which is an even BIGGER ask... yeah right. Seems like people just can't get away from BB being some sort of demi-god in the game.

Edited by Canadatron

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3 hours ago, JToney3449 said:

Cause you can get down to 12-13km detection depending on the BB.  Thats the ideal range for ambush shots with low travel times to delete/deal massive damage to cruisers and BB.  It also means you can disengage easier when you start taking concentrated fire.

Instead of dropping MFC cost they need to add a secondary target for the other side of the ship so we can fire secondaries off both sides.  The biggest draw back to the skill is our secondaries only fire at 1 ship instead of anything within range, where as MAA fires at any plane and just deals enhanced damage to one selected making it a more useful skill on a skill to skill comparison.

To add, when your ship is on fire and you need to disengage, but your DCP is on CD, you'll have a harder time.  Being on fire adds 2km to your surface detection range.

 

If your BB is naturally 12.2km such as Stealth Build Iowa / Missouri / Alabama, it worsens to 14.2km, which is difficult but manageable if you weren't too close to begin with.

But if your BB is some sh*tty 15km or so, you'll never be able to disengage with 17km detection.  And that means whichever targets have been tormenting you at range will keep tormenting you.

 

But the CE changes WG has mentioned will change everything.  WG is making it a flat 10% regardless of ship type.  This has very big ramifications for everything that isn't a DD.  Stealth Build BBs will lose a lot from this.  Yamato has a default concealment range of 18km, with today's Stealth Build she goes down to about 13.5km.  That's going out the window.

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"Uncompetitive" really just means there are superior options in clan battles or ranked.  Lowering the MFSec skill level wouldn't change that.  At this point it requires a tradeoff of CE, BoS, SI, and Vigilance.  Tradeoffs are a good thing, since cookie-cutter optimal builds would suck if they ever came to be. 

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my biggest grip with that skill is the 15% accuracy vs 60% accuracy to sub t7 ships... why on earth they do that? specialy considering  low - mid tiers secondaries have godawfull range

adding something extra for the lower tiers would be welcome

-15% to the maximum dispersion of shells for the secondary armament of Tier I-VI ships.

+1-1.5 km base range for the secondary armament of Tier I-VI ships.

-60% to the maximum dispersion of shells for the secondary armament of Tier VII-X ships.

 

secondaries could olso use some t1/t2 captain skills say:

tier 1 enhanced fire control system 

-15% to main gun range

+20% accuracy to main and secondaries guns

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Capt_h2o said:

Why would you run concealment on a high tier BB? You can't hide a moving island. 

Because the difference in Concealment between 15.9km and 13.7km in case of the one true island, GK, is very much noticable.

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Lowering the captain skill requirement for secondary builds amounts to a nerf for BBs that have poor secondary performance to begin with. 

Personally I've always felt seconadaries should be restricted to a consumable type mechanic which would require skilled management and not a vertical auto damage captain skill. 

 

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I'm conflicted.  Personally I think secondary builds are uncompetitive and nowhere near worth the massive amount of captain skills it takes to make them.  I don't like the idea of buffing secondary builds much further as I think it's a bad idea to have non player controlled weapons doing too much damage....but reducing the amount of skill points it takes to make them just makes it easier to spec for secondaries with out the downsides.  

I think something should be done, I just don't know what.

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7 hours ago, JToney3449 said:

Cause you can get down to 12-13km detection depending on the BB.  Thats the ideal range for ambush shots with low travel times to delete/deal massive damage to cruisers and BB.  It also means you can disengage easier when you start taking concentrated fire.

Instead of dropping MFC cost they need to add a secondary target for the other side of the ship so we can fire secondaries off both sides.  The biggest draw back to the skill is our secondaries only fire at 1 ship instead of anything within range, where as MAA fires at any plane and just deals enhanced damage to one selected making it a more useful skill on a skill to skill comparison.

One designated target gets the accuracy buff, otherwise work as normal. Wouldn't be a bad change.

On topic, I wouldn't reduce the investment needed in MS. FP/BoS are very useful if you're in a ship like Iowa that doesn't have mean secondaries to begin with. Besides, I like to get in close and tank, it's stupid to come unprepared for the HE spam. I run fire duration flags on all my BBs alongside BoS in several like my Yamato--the zombie build is excellent for keeping HE spammers' busy while focusing on real targets.

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WG is already planning to look into secondaries to make them more viable. The QoL adjustments for secondaries firing AP to instead fire HE was the start of it. This was stated not too long ago, either in their Dev Blog or the recent WG event in California.

I mean, it'd be great if they expanded secondary ranges across the board (even for rare secondary gun(s) on DDs), and made ManSec work more like ManAA.

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I agree with the idea of not needing such a massive investment for secondary specs.

The main problem is mainly that without manual secondaries skill, secondary guns are pretty much completely useless. There are some exceptions for some ships with more accurate secondaries like Warspite and Mass, but overall, a deep investment of points is *required* to even make secondaries work in the first place. A ship with strong AA will still have strong AA without investing in BFT/AFT/MAA. Sure, the AA will be stronger, but it's not a night and day difference.  A ship without Fire Prevention won't suddenly explode in a rain of napalm. The skill helps but is by no means a necessity. And while secondary guns are reasonably strong with a full sec spec, they are NOT 18 points strong, know what I mean?

Secondaries as a whole needs a serious rework and likely buff. Or at least the difference between secondary guns with and without manual secondaries shouldn't be so acute.

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