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Full noob Massachusetts 2ndary build help?

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Just got my new black baby this morning and going full noob 2ndary build, aka, rush to your death to use them but laugh the whole time build.

how do you guys do yours? thinking of IFHE and manual the rest on a tank build?

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6 minutes ago, TheBlackWind said:

I skipped IFHE myself in favor of concealment. 

mistake in my opinion

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1 minute ago, JToney3449 said:

mistake in my opinion

Yes, I've not fully tested it out yet. The ship is new... But my feeling is I'd rather have fire damage than pen damage. IFHE really hits the fire chance very hard on those guns. 

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13 minutes ago, TheBlackWind said:

Yes, I've not fully tested it out yet. The ship is new... But my feeling is I'd rather have fire damage than pen damage. IFHE really hits the fire chance very hard on those guns. 

Without it you will get far more shatters, with it you get over 2 of the armor hurdles like 27mm allowing you to deal direct damage through bows and other areas.  

I suggest something like http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1010000000100000000001001010100019

Edited by JToney3449

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AFT, BFT, Manual Sec., and IFHE should all be taken.

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I feel that superintendent is more valuable than BFT due the incredibly quick cooldown on the repair party. You can burn them up in the first ten minutes and be a very sad fellow when the game drags out.

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whelp, 1500 doubloons and counting on respecs… and torped to death by new asashios from the other side of the globe...Catch the fever!

Image result for yes! meme

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2 hours ago, APA_204 said:

 aka, rush to your death to use them but laugh the whole time build.

 

 

That's not what you do in the Mass.

All the secondary modules. BFT/AFT/Manual Sec/IFHE.

DON'T SKIP IFHE. If you are going to run a full secondary Mass build and skip IFHE than you might as well punch yourself in the d**k. 

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1 hour ago, steelers_rule_2018 said:

i am not sure on Superintendent vs BFT. I guess i might need to play with that. Plus MFC over AR? hmm. 

MFC is a must for secondary builds if you want to rack up lots of secondary hits, SI extra heal is more useful in my book as Mass secondaries are already firing hella fast.  AR only shines when you are low health and even then only 10% of Main reload.  Extra heal may keep you alive in the fight and dead guns fire 0 shells.  AR is something i use for main gun builds not for secondary builds.

Edited by JToney3449

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6 minutes ago, JToney3449 said:

MFC is a must for secondary builds if you want to rack up lots of secondary hits, SI extra heal is more useful in my book as Mass secondaries are already firing hella fast.  AR only shines when you are low health and even then only 10% of Main reload.  Extra heal may keep you alive in the fight and dead guns fire 0 shells.  AR is something i use for main gun builds not for secondary builds.

AR improves secondaries as well, at 50% health you have the effect of BFT.

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Every true secondary Mass build should have IFHE. IFHE makes a noticeable difference in damage output. You may not start as many fires, but the you will get quite a bit more non-fire induced damage. 

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6 minutes ago, Schindlers_Stink_Fist said:

Every true secondary Mass build should have IFHE. IFHE makes a noticeable difference in damage output. You may not start as many fires, but the you will get quite a bit more non-fire induced damage. 

It’s not necessary. I’ve run both setups. My best game I did over 100k in secondary damage, and it was without IFHE.

I, too, used to think it was mandatory for the Massachusetts. But then I tried it without and it was the same. I put the points into DE and haven’t looked back 

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9 minutes ago, Ranari said:

It’s not necessary. I’ve run both setups. My best game I did over 100k in secondary damage, and it was without IFHE.

I, too, used to think it was mandatory for the Massachusetts. But then I tried it without and it was the same. I put the points into DE and haven’t looked back 

 

From a consistency perspective, IFHE is better then DE, especially when you consider IFHE allows you to bypass a few important armor thresholds. DE allows for more fires and that's it. 

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I'm a couple games from the leader board, but am tracking to 4th. The popular build for players messing around at the top of the leader board is

PT PM

AR

SI

AFT IFHE MANSEC

Some people run bft over si. I ran bft for a bit, but realized I was getting to a stage in the game usually where the 5th heal would be fully able to be used and would be handy, so I switched. I feel that si is better than bft. It's not a sniper, you want to be in secondary range when able, so ce is a waste imo

Edited by Ducky_shot
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7 hours ago, Schindlers_Stink_Fist said:

 

From a consistency perspective, IFHE is better then DE, especially when you consider IFHE allows you to bypass a few important armor thresholds. DE allows for more fires and that's it. 

It's not necessary.  I'm not saying IFHE doesn't have its uses, but when you narrow down exactly where most of your secondary damage is coming from, you'll realize that IFHE is a very expensive skill for very diminishing returns.  The only main targets you'll do more pen damage against are T6/7 battleships and some cruisers.  Battleships, however, are where most of your damage comes from, and the Massachusetts predominantly hits the superstructure, which it doesn't need IFHE to pen. 

I'm just being honest and speaking from my own experience.  I've put about 60 games into the Massachusetts without IFHE and I've gotten more results out of DE than I have IFHE.  The same is true for the Montana, which I switch out captains with.  American 127mm guns just don't need IFHE to get the job done.

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9 minutes ago, Ranari said:

It's not necessary.  I'm not saying IFHE doesn't have its uses, but when you narrow down exactly where most of your secondary damage is coming from, you'll realize that IFHE is a very expensive skill for very diminishing returns.  The only main targets you'll do more pen damage against are T6/7 battleships and some cruisers.  Battleships, however, are where most of your damage comes from, and the Massachusetts predominantly hits the superstructure, which it doesn't need IFHE to pen. 

I'm just being honest and speaking from my own experience.  I've put about 60 games into the Massachusetts without IFHE and I've gotten more results out of DE than I have IFHE.  The same is true for the Montana, which I switch out captains with.  American 127mm guns just don't need IFHE to get the job done.

How much fire damage do you get?  I have well over 200 games in my Massachusetts and have never had appreciable fire damage done. IFHE has allowed me to get well above 60-80k in secondary damage. So many folks spec into survivability builds, that fire isn't a big contributor. Whatever though, just have fun and put steel on steel, secondary ships are the best thing in this game

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14 hours ago, LCPL4ever said:

How much fire damage do you get?  I have well over 200 games in my Massachusetts and have never had appreciable fire damage done. IFHE has allowed me to get well above 60-80k in secondary damage. So many folks spec into survivability builds, that fire isn't a big contributor. Whatever though, just have fun and put steel on steel, secondary ships are the best thing in this game

They are! Secondary ships are so much fun.

As far as damage is concerned, it's about 50/50 pen and fires, with 60-80k damage from secondaries being not too uncommon.  My best is over 100k.  It was one of those things where I took DE over IFHE just to test it out, I started getting better damage overall, and I was asking myself, "Okay, why is this working?"  Since I share the same captain in my Montana, it basically confirmed my observations.  The beauty, of course, is in the details:

The #1 detail that matters is that battleships are always going to be >90-95% of your secondary damage overall.  There are times you get to blow up destroyers and cruisers, but it's not very common.  Battleships are much larger and slower targets, don't have getaway tools to drop aggro, and are often willing participants anyways.  With that said, IFHE only provides a pen benefit against low tier battleships (and cruisers, but we're not talking about those).  Against T8+ battleships, it's a straight up downgrade to your overall secondary performance.  Yep, when engaging that enemy North Carolina, taking IFHE actually hurts you.  On the other hand, DE provides a benefit in all situations no matter what tier battleship you're facing.  And when you plug in the math, the difference becomes more apparent.  DE is an additive benefit, not multiplicative, so the benefit is actually a lot more than it seems.  I've included the actual formula below, but for the sake of this example, I'm just going to keep it as simple as possible (ie, no flags).

  • USS Massachusetts vs USS North Carolina, with the North Carolina B-hull sporting FP and DCM1.

When firing on a North Carolina (B-hull, FP, DCM1) from your Massachusetts w/ IFHE, your secondaries have a 2.15% chance to start a fire per connected shell.  With neither IFHE nor DE, it's 2.69%.  When firing against said North Carolina with DE instead of IFHE, your secondaries have a 3.77% chance to start a fire.  Or, in other words, you have a +57% chance to start a fire per shell with DE over IFHE when firing against an equal tier battleship with DCM1 and FP.  I use that example because a lot of ships are configured that way.

[Fire Resistance Coefficient] x ( 1 - [Damage Control Modification 1] - [Fire Prevention] ) x ( [Projectile Base Fire Chance] + [Demolition Expert] + [Signals] - [Inertial Fuse for HE Shells]) = Fire Chance

Obviously, once you get a fire or two going, DE loses its effectiveness.  But what would you rather have?  Would you rather spend 4 points to nerf you combat performance against high tier battleships, or would you rather spend 3 points to give you a strong benefit across the board and use the remaining points elsewhere?  Or, knowing that IFHE is actually hurting you half the time, spend those points on things like Concealment Expert, or BoS/SI? 

If we were talking about the Bismarck instead of the Massachusetts here, IFHE wound unquestionably be more valuable.  But as you can see, DE is a very competitive option in the Massachusetts.  Or, just not taking either DE or IFHE and taking defensive skills instead is perfectly viable.  It all boils down to user choice.  But is IFHE necessary?  Absolutely not.  We all know how  much T8 ships get uptiered anyways, so taking IFHE is actually going to hurt you most of the time.

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