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Prkl8r

Need help with T9-10 RN DDs.

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I'm on Jutland at the moment and need some help with with this one.

As I understand it they have good AP, however whenever I have to brawl with an enemy DD....like any enemy DD... I seem to take far more damage from them then they do from me even if we are broadsiding each other. 

In my last game I was brawling with a Shima and had to disengage because he was beating me. We were both broadside to one another. I'm firing AP because I don't have IFHE just yet.

Is the AP in these actually not good or what am I doing wrong?

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Look, this may be an unpopular opinion, but I never, ever use AP on enemy DDs in mine. It's a mediocre way of dealing damage to a ship type that you can't even citadel. If they angle, you straight up do no damage, and what's more DD AP almost never does module damage like knocking out engines or rudders, and AP can't start fires. I always use HE. Even before I had IFHE on the Japanese 10cm guns, I enjoyed more or equal successes with HE shells. I think this would remain the case even with the improved RN AP. Just opinion and anecdotes though.

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7 minutes ago, goldeagle1123 said:

Look, this may be an unpopular opinion, but I never, ever use AP on enemy DDs in mine. It's a mediocre way of dealing damage to a ship type that you can't even citadel. If they angle, you straight up do no damage, and what's more DD AP almost never does module damage like knocking out engines or rudders, and AP can't start fires. I always use HE. Even before I had IFHE on the Japanese 10cm guns, I enjoyed more or equal successes with HE shells. I think this would remain the case even with the improved RN AP. Just opinion and anecdotes though.

Goldeagle, I've never had problems using DD AP on enemy DDs.  I just know that I'll probably only get in 1-2 volleys before the enemy DD turns away and I need to switch to HE.  Well timed DD AP can do incredible damage to an enemy DD.

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19 minutes ago, Prkl8r said:

I'm on Jutland at the moment and need some help with with this one.

As I understand it they have good AP, however whenever I have to brawl with an enemy DD....like any enemy DD... I seem to take far more damage from them then they do from me even if we are broadsiding each other. 

In my last game I was brawling with a Shima and had to disengage because he was beating me. We were both broadside to one another. I'm firing AP because I don't have IFHE just yet.

Is the AP in these actually not good or what am I doing wrong?

Only use AP on broadsides, anything else should be HE.

Don't listen to the popular "you don't need IFHE"  - You do, it will make HE much more viable againts DD's. 

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3 minutes ago, wstugamd said:

You have to get ihfe. No way around it

I figured it would be fine if I was broadside to an enemy DD but when Shima can outgun you, it's pretty sad, and it's not like my shells weren't hitting.

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That's the problem with theoretical dpm vs practical dpm.  Esp with the Shima alpha buff.  The reality is very few engagements are training room style two broadside destroyers shooting each other in plain sight gun duel style.  I do see some Shimas using the trailing smoke puff vision stutter to take advantage of their alpha and disrupt machine gun destroyers.

 

 

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You need IFHE.

The AP is not really worth it, even broadside if you miss a few shots high you get overpens for less damage, if you start with AP they will angle at least once and you will waste a volley.

Considering the AP only does 23% more damage than HE while an overpen does only 40% of the damage of a HE penetration it's a dubious trade.

I took an overly in-depth look here:

TL/DR - shoot AP sparingly and at broadsides especially at close range, as a general rule with IFHE you'll regret shooting too much AP rather than too little HE.

Also - in Jutland you will likely overpen T7 DD but even without IFHE you pen their hulls with the HE, so shoot HE.

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In the scenario you describe you have to take into account that most IJN DDs are pretty thin. You will be having overpens with DD AP, even sometimes when firing AP with the 100mm of the gunboat line.

As it was already said, IFHE is mandatory. AP is usable, but more as a part of dynamic switch between AP and HE. For example you engage someone at your detection range. You fire one salvo HE, then see if he tries to turn. This gives you the opening to fire 2 AP salvos until the DD will be too angled to pen reliably. Don't rely on one type of ammo.

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5 minutes ago, mofton said:

You need IFHE.

The AP is not really worth it, even broadside if you miss a few shots high you get overpens for less damage, if you start with AP they will angle at least once and you will waste a volley.

Considering the AP only does 23% more damage than HE while an overpen does only 40% of the damage of a HE penetration it's a dubious trade.

I took an overly in-depth look here:

There's no need to waste a volley, unless they've out spotted you and you had AP already loaded.  If you open with a broadside AP volley, you can preset your DD to make the next reload HE, or just double tap the 1 key and load HE instantly after firing your AP volley.  All it takes is a little foresight.

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50 minutes ago, Prkl8r said:

I'm on Jutland at the moment and need some help with with this one.

As I understand it they have good AP, however whenever I have to brawl with an enemy DD....like any enemy DD... I seem to take far more damage from them then they do from me even if we are broadsiding each other. 

In my last game I was brawling with a Shima and had to disengage because he was beating me. We were both broadside to one another. I'm firing AP because I don't have IFHE just yet.

Is the AP in these actually not good or what am I doing wrong?

someone correct me if I'm wrong...but I believe HE breaks more things than AP does and you want to start a fire...a dd on fire means he is more easily spotted... and HE can hit from any angle. AP can work....but I usually use AP when smoked up against broadside CA's and BB's. But as others have said, IFHE is where that ship starts to do well.

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5 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

In the scenario you describe you have to take into account that most IJN DDs are pretty thin. You will be having overpens with DD AP, even sometimes when firing AP with the 100mm of the gunboat line.

It's very hard to overpen with the RN 113mm guns on the hull of T8+ destroyers, the superstructure's another question.

At the muzzle the AP would travel about 7.5m. At 6km they'd travel <5m. That's not including the slow-down from going through the plate or any angle they have. An Akatsuki has a 10.5m beam, a Shimakaze has 11.2m. You can overpen the hull, but only at the extreme ends - mostly the bow.

5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

There's no need to waste a volley, unless they've out spotted you and you had AP already loaded.  If you open with a broadside AP volley, you can preset your DD to make the next reload HE, or just double tap the 1 key and load HE instantly after firing your AP volley.  All it takes is a little foresight.

If they're closing bow-in or angled you can still waste one, you are right that with good foresight you can avoid wasting an AP volley.

The downside is that the handy destroyers at high tiers can turn at about 8°/s, at 6km you're taking more than 3s for your shells to get there, an alert opponent can put a lot of angle on even in response to incoming fire: 24° is a good change in angle.

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1 minute ago, mofton said:

 

If they're closing bow-in or angled you can still waste one, you are right that with good foresight you can avoid wasting an AP volley.

The downside is that the handy destroyers at high tiers can turn at about 8°/s, at 6km you're taking more than 3s for your shells to get there, an alert opponent can put a lot of angle on even in response to incoming fire: 24° is a good change in angle.

Honestly mofton, even on DDs where I'm willing to use AP on broadside DDs, I do NOT keep AP loaded.  If for some reason, I was firing AP as some BB and broke off the engagement, I'd immediately reload with HE, assuming that in my break-off I'm not really doing anything other than running and going dark.  I view HE as the default ammo of choice for all DDs.  I just load AP when I see a situation where it would be the better choice, but then switch back when that's no longer that case.

Frankly, we're probably agreeing here.  HE is the ammo of choice for DD duels.  AP is only useful when you get a broadside shot, and usually only at short range.

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

Honestly mofton, even on DDs where I'm willing to use AP on broadside DDs, I do NOT keep AP loaded.  If for some reason, I was firing AP as some BB and broke off the engagement, I'd immediately reload with HE, assuming that in my break-off I'm not really doing anything other than running and going dark.  I view HE as the default ammo of choice for all DDs.  I just load AP when I see a situation where it would be the better choice, but then switch back when that's no longer that case.

Frankly, we're probably agreeing here.  HE is the ammo of choice for DD duels.  AP is only useful when you get a broadside shot, and usually only at short range.

I mean, I knew HE was the choice ammo for every other DD, I just thought that the RN T9 and 10 were supposed to have good AP to compensate for the low gun caliber. I thought this was to make up for it in the same way they buffed the IJN 100mm guns so that IFHE wasn't mandatory to do damage. 

Feels kind of bad that they acknowledged that it feels bad on IJN DDs and changed it, but then went and put another DD line in that requires it.

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