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hyuuu

IFHE on Jean Bart

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Decided to play around with some random cruiser captain I had from the Saint Louis that happened to have IFHE for a 16pt captain rather than starting from scratch.

What sort of armor threshold will IFHE help overcome? Will it make much of a difference overall and is it worth it?

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I got it on mine for secondary since it my Alsace captains , I make secondary powerful

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It helps your 100mm secondary batteries do penetrating hits so now they can pen the superstructures of BBs and the hulls of DDs now 

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The reason you take IFHE for JB, Alsace are for the 100mm secondaries.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

Non-IJN 100mm without IFHE:  100mm / 6 = 16.66 or 17mm of armor needed to defeat this HE shell.

Non-IJN 100mm with IFHE:  (100mm / 6) x 1.3 = 21.66 or 22mm of armor needed to defeat this HE shell.

 

Jean Bart as a Tier IX, you need to consider the armor you're dealing with.  Even with IFHE, the 100mm secondaries will not penetrate BB decks nor the minimum armor plating of High Tier (VIII-X) Battleships, which is 32mm.  Cruiser armor is 25mm at its lowest in these tiers for almost all of them, some have 27mm bows, 50mm decks.  Even with IFHE, those secondaries will not pen.

 

Without IFHE you'll still be able to penetrate DD armor and Cruiser superstructure.  It is only against High Tier BBs with their 19mm superstructure where your 100mm secondaries will fail.  One of my early experiences with Alsace and her 100mm secondaries was getting into a brawl with a Missouri player.  I got hundreds and hundreds of secondary hits, but in the Detailed Report, my shells only did 260-something damage.  The reason was the 100mm secondaries could not even penetrate the 19mm superstructure of a High Tier BB.

 

When I added IFHE to Alsace, the secondaries carved through even Battleships because they were getting hit relentlessly in the superstructure.

 

Also note, that with a secondaries build on a BB, you don't want to get too close.  The AI, which your secondaries are controlled by, aims for the center, waterline of the enemy target.  Secondary shells with range arc up a bit and then down.  This is where you see the shells land on decks, superstructure.  But if you get into knife fighting ranges, your secondaries get accurate and hit where the AI aims for.. center, waterline of the ship.  And Cruiser, Battleship armor belts are too thick for even 100mm IFHE secondaries to penetrate.  Even Massachusetts' 127mm secondaries with IFHE will not penetrate the thick armor belts.  If GK with her Special HE Pen Buffed 128mm guns cannot penetrate Cruiser and Battleship belts, you sure as hell can't with any other secondaries.  Keep some range, preferably 9km or longer, and let the secondaries work and hit the superstructure of a target. 

 

Destroyer targets?  Without IFHE, the 100mm secondaries cannot penetrate the 19mm DD hulls of High Tier.  Tier VII ones?  Yes since they only have 16mm hulls, but not High Tier VIII-X ones.  With IFHE, you'll pen High Tier DD Hulls with your secondaries.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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has the OP considered the arcs of fire of secondaries on Jean Bart?

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IFHE on JB means the 100mm secondaries pen 21mm instead of 16mm and the 130s 28mm instead of 21. Of questionable benefit, since JB is not a brawler and doesn't want to get in close most of the time. Personally I wouldn't put 20%+ of my total captain point allowance towards it, especially considering the firing arcs on the secondaries.

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I actually forgot about secondaries when asking this question, but my initial intention was to consider using Jean Bart as an HE main battery slinger against armored angled targets her lower caliber can't penetrate.

I found that with the abundance of musashi and Yamato players Jean Bart was pitied against, HE tended to be a lot more effective than trying to even attempt using AP since they are bow on at 18km+ most of the time. 

With IFHE, the idea was that my damage per salvo would hopefully be comparable to regular AP pens in addition to stacking extra fire damage.

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1 hour ago, hyuuu said:

I actually forgot about secondaries when asking this question, but my initial intention was to consider using Jean Bart as an HE main battery slinger against armored angled targets her lower caliber can't penetrate.

I found that with the abundance of musashi and Yamato players Jean Bart was pitied against, HE tended to be a lot more effective than trying to even attempt using AP since they are bow on at 18km+ most of the time. 

With IFHE, the idea was that my damage per salvo would hopefully be comparable to regular AP pens in addition to stacking extra fire damage.

 

I don't think so.... Might help if you were top tier against tier 7/8 though, but how often is that going to happen.... She's not accurate enough, and her HE fire chance isn't good enough to be an HE slinger. at 18 km, maybe 1-3 shells are actually going to hit bow on BBs.

 

jean bart kinda sucks actually. Too situational. i regret buying it

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13 hours ago, hyuuu said:

I actually forgot about secondaries when asking this question, but my initial intention was to consider using Jean Bart as an HE main battery slinger against armored angled targets her lower caliber can't penetrate.

I found that with the abundance of musashi and Yamato players Jean Bart was pitied against, HE tended to be a lot more effective than trying to even attempt using AP since they are bow on at 18km+ most of the time. 

With IFHE, the idea was that my damage per salvo would hopefully be comparable to regular AP pens in addition to stacking extra fire damage.

IFHE would not help Jean Bart's 380mm HE any more against heavy armor.

 

The way she is right now, without IFHE:

380mm / 6 = 63.33 or 63mm of armor needed to defeat Jean Bart's 380mm HE shells.

 

The only ships with sections of 64mm or thicker armor are Armored Carriers Taiho, Hakuryu, Midway in Tiers IX-X, due to their Armored Flight Decks.  Not even Yamato has that thick of a deck, it's about 57 or 58mm.  German BBs which have many thick deck armor ships are 50mm at their thickest.  Tons of BBs have 32mm or less.

 

IFHE for Main Battery purposes isn't going to help.

 

Lastly, if you want to know where I got that formula from, it's here for HE Penetration in the WoWS Wiki.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

 

Also, you have to remember IFHE does not make the HE shell do more damage.  It just increases the HE Penetration so that it DOES damage.  For HE shells coming from BBs, you have a tremendous amount of HE Penetration already.  IFHE is more for smaller caliber guns as found on Secondaries and DD / Cruiser Main Batteries.  IFHE is a bigger deal for Cruisers and DDs with certain gun sizes because without IFHE, they cannot penetrate certain common armor thicknesses at certain tiers.  152mm HE without IFHE cannot even penetrate 25mm of armor.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Without IFHE the 100mm's will only pen 16mm armor. This means that any tier 8 and above DD can only be damaged by a superstructure hit. <So you are practically SOL against DD's in the high-tier games where the French BB's 100mm's come into play.

With IFHE the 100mm's will manage to beat (at least) 19mm's of armor; thus allowing your 100mm shells to damage any part of a enemy DD (save one) and allows them to deal damage to superstructures of enemy BB's and Cruisers (of course this mean ONLY their superstructures). It does however give a nice buff to the 155mm guns though as well which (with IFHE) will be able to pen some BB's deck armor and the majority of cruisers armor.

So, here's the question you should ask yourself, "Do you want to invest in more survival-based skills and have secondary guns act as fire-starters ONLY" OR "Do you want your secondary guns to be geared towards taking out enemy DD's?"

Their specific use against enemy cruiser and other BB's are situational at best considering that the only place you can damage them are the superstructures. Yes, IFHE will still boost your secondary damage (as it basically permits them to deal damage to said ship classes) against those classes, but it will not be nearly as significant as the boost to their affects against DD's. If left without IFHE, they will not damage any of the classes (save for superstructure hits to DD's), but will still be able to set fires consistently to them all.

On the other hand, German BB's secondary guns can at least manage against enemy DD's on their own, without IFHE. With IFHE, those German secondaries can pretty well pen the thin hull armor areas of even a Yamato.

Edited by Levits

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

380mm / 6 = 63.33 or 64mm of armor needed to defeat Jean Bart's 380mm HE shells.

Shells normally round the HE pen figure, so Jean Bart's 380mm has an HE pen figure of 63mm and therefore will not pen a 63mm plate.

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1 hour ago, Aetreus said:

Shells normally round the HE pen figure, so Jean Bart's 380mm has an HE pen figure of 63mm and therefore will not pen a 63mm plate.

Oops, you're right.  I imagined that .3 as a .8 :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Also for those that want to be amused, German BB HE also gets the same HE Pen Buff as their Cruisers do.  In typical games it doesn't matter except if they decide to sling HE on the Armored CVs.  That's about it :Smile_trollface:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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