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xTybaltx

BB's? still no reason to switch from AP to HE, now you just cant delete any DD's

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So BB AP only over-pen damage's DD's now... ok...

Disclaimer: Im a DD main but i play BB alot too.  I think this change wasnt needed to begin with but my DD's sure do love the straight buff to survive ability im getting from it.

Put it back the way it was!  Heres the reasoning.

This change is supposed to fix what happens when BB AP shell full pens a DD causing huge damage.  We all should know a full pen is 30% of the total damage displayed on a shell, a shell over-pen is 10% of the total damage displayed on a shell.  The only time a shell does the total amount shown is during a citadel.  These numbers are static, they do not change, its 10% or 30% everytime! sometimes we see different numbers because that damage is taken from the available HP in whatever is being hit and that available amount can vary.

Picking a few higher tier BB's.

G Kurfurst: AP full pen=4k damage

Montana: AP full pen=4k damage

Repub: AP full pen=4.3k damage

Alsace: AP full pen=3.5k damage

Yammy: AP full pen=4.4k damage

Tirpitz: AP full pen=3.4k damage

Conq: AP full pen=4.3k damage

Those are some large numbers to DD's in the sub 20k hp pool.  thats per shell..  yammy gets 2-3 pens on you and your dead kid, just dead!

G Kurfurst: AP OVER pen=1.3k damage / HE full pen = 1.5k damage

Montana: AP OVER pen=1.3k damage / HE full pen = 1.7k damage

Repub: AP OVER pen=1.4k damage / HE full pen = 1.8k damage

Alsace: AP OVER pen=1.1k damage / HE full pen = 1.6k damage

Yammy: AP OVER pen=1.4k damage / HE full pen = 2.1k damage

Tirpitz: AP OVER pen=1.16k damage / HE full pen = 1.3k damage

Conq: AP OVER pen=1.5k damage / HE full pen = 2.4k damage

Here is a problem.... a BB is expected to possibly waist 30 seconds or more and potentially have HE in the tubes when he misses out on a sweet sweet citadel that presents itself from another ship in the game all for an extra 200-600 damage per shell?  The conq throws off the curve a bit because it has hard hitting HE but even that is 900 more.  And lets be real, even a legendary Yamato at any reasonable range is only going to be landing 2-3 shells (at most) on a running away dd! (usually) 

So yammy should switch out shells losing a potential 144,800 damage in one salvo (if all shells citadel a target) or 39k damage (if all shells just full pen a target, say another bb?) in the slim hopes that it can get an extra 1,800 damage out of a salvo on that nasty dd 10km away from him....  If yammy is good and gets nice and lucky, we will say 4 HE shells hit that lowly gearing, hes going to do a flat 8.4k damage! it hurts the gearing to be sure, but it is not even going to cut him in half.  oh but if i drop my gearing torps on that yammy, say good night and thats not considering that i might flood you for a full minute!  The more and more i write about this change the more and more it irritates the crapout of me.

Whats even worse! in both clan battles and randoms the discussion now has to be made is it even worth it for a BB to shoot at a DD if its at any reasonable range away, the BB has ZERO RNG chance of even taking half the HP off that slippery DD and the BB will be spotted from everywhere, and on a 30 seconds reload where his damage could have been used elsewhere.  At least before there was a chance, ever so slight that even 1 full pen round would land doing significant damage to the DD.

Not even comparing that Cruiser HE shells do only marginally less damage than BB HE shells yet they reload in some cases 3 to 6 times faster... and travel faster making it easier to hit.

Wargaming made a change that will effect their final statics in that amount of damage BB's due too DD's and that DD's seem to survive longer than they used too. They will see success in their final statistics. But they did not fix any problem, if they problem addressed was DD's are dieing too soon or DD's are taking too much BB's damage, the proper "why is that" is not lets change a number in the equation to see results, the results will be false.  The problem i think is an abundance of radar range and duration and its effectiveness for a team, thats my opinion. 

What they have done is similar to if you say "speeding if a problem in my neighborhood! the cops are writing alot of speeding tickets."  "OK lets raise the speed limit in the area and tell less cops to write tickets!" "we will see a marked decrease in speeders in your neighborhood by next week. yay"    no...not yay! the problem is still there you just hid it in the data.

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4 minutes ago, xTybaltx said:

Whats even worse! in both clan battles and randoms the discussion now has to be made is it even worth it for a BB to shoot at a DD if its at any reasonable range away, the BB has ZERO RNG chance of even taking half the HP off that slippery DD and the BB will be spotted from everywhere, and on a 30 seconds reload where his damage could have been used elsewhere.  At least before there was a chance, ever so slight that even 1 full pen round would land doing significant damage to the DD.

Why do people think this?

People seem to think shooting a DD and "only" doing 2 overpens worth of damage is actually a bad thing for some reason.

  • DD gameplay changes based on how much HP you have. Even if you "only" lose 20-30% of your HP initially, that means you have a harder time actively contesting vs other DDs
  • DDs mostly cannot heal damage
  • A single overpen at TX is ~7% of a DD's entire HP pool, gone permanently (except a few DDs)
  • More people shooting at a DD mean they are more likely to disengage 

 

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As I've said in other topics, (I'm a BB main):

See DD, keep shooting, don't wait for angles, more shots in the air = more potential hits = sooner said DD is dead. A lot of BB used to wait for shots on say DD 12-16km away, just fire now; imagine if 3-4+ ships added their fire to the 2-3 cruisers already shooting which in some cases is enough to instantly delete a DD as it is?

This change punishes BB self defense at point blank range though; that's unfortunate.

Edited by reaper_swpz

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Shut up and build your BBs for secondaries. AP fire at DDs was always chancy. This won't change it that much. With the change implemented a 4-shell hit will probably kill the DD. If you have the right captain's skills and flags up your secondaries should do the rest if the DD is not dead yet. And WASD hack like crazy, because if you can see the DD and no one else is spotting for you, which is usually the case because everyone flees DDs like poison, chances are she has already fired her torps at you! Welcome to Davy Jones' Locker!

Edited by GrandAdmiral_2016
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6 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Why do people think this?

People seem to think shooting a DD and "only" doing 2 overpens worth of damage is actually a bad thing for some reason.

  • DD gameplay changes based on how much HP you have. Even if you "only" lose 20-30% of your HP initially, that means you have a harder time actively contesting vs other DDs
  • DDs mostly cannot heal damage
  • A single overpen at TX is ~7% of a DD's entire HP pool, gone permanently (except a few DDs)
  • More people shooting at a DD mean they are more likely to disengage 

 

 

5 minutes ago, reaper_swpz said:

As I've said in other topics, (I'm a BB main):

 

See DD, keep shooting, don't wait for angles, not shots in the air = more potential hits = sooner said DD is dead. A lot of BB used to wait for shots on say DD 12-16km away, just fire now; imagine if 3-4+ ships added their fire to the 2-3 cruisers already shooting which in some cases is enough to instantly delete a DD as it is?

This change punishes BB self defense at point blank range though; that's unfortunate.

 

I completely agree to both.  Killing DD's is top priority and it should be.  Doesnt mean this change doesnt further enhance the opposing view.  Have to know all sides of a discussion to understand it.  This gives the "why bother shooting at DD's side" much more ammo is my point, and their ammo is ever more effective today than it was yesterday.  Will BB's load into a match with HE loaded in the tube from the start now?  pass up that sweet cruiser delete early?  i think not.

Edited by xTybaltx

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Yep great math on there that's what we were talking about earlier. 

 

I think you still shoot AP all the time, it was just a straight BB nerf and DD buff, at this point.

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10 minutes ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

Shut up and build your BBs for secondaries. AP fire at DDs was always chancy. This won't change it that much. With the change implemented a 4-shell hit will probably kill the DD. If you have the right captain's skills and flags up your secondaries should do the rest if the DD is not dead yet. And WASD hack like crazy, because if you can see the DD and no one else is spotting for you, which is usually the case because everyone flees DDs like poison, chances are she has already fired her torps at you! Welcome to Davy Jones' Locker!

Except only certain BBs have decent enough secondaries to deal with DDs, and putting points towards secondary builds makes you easier to burn to cruisers and dd gunboats, so pick your poison in that case.

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9 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Why do people think this?

People seem to think shooting a DD and "only" doing 2 overpens worth of damage is actually a bad thing for some reason.

Because 2 overpens is either a lucky shot or in a place where you can absolutely lay into them.   Sure you can hit with more but your just as likely to hit with less or even none.   2k damage where they make a mistake or you get a nice rng roll is a joke.

Then add on the fact that they can do 2k damage to bb's in about 10 seconds or less as opposed to the bb reload of 30 secs on average.  Oh and thats from any angle armor need not apply,  and that's not counting the fires that do BB AP citadel amount of damage if you don't use damage control which for the most part your not damage controling one fire.

All of that above is not too bad until you add in that dd's can still easily wipe out half a bb's health or a lot more with their main weapons which bb's can't.

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What it comes down to is this:  BBs aren't going to preload HE on the off chance of running into a DD unless that DD is the only thing left to shoot.

They're not going to swap shells when they see a DD, because chances are, that DD will have vanished before they have a chance to do so.

They're not even going to fire what they've got and reload with HE, because there's probably not going to be a second salvo.

BBs are going to continue spamming AP at DDs.  They're just going to get rewarded less for their trouble.

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Look, I haven't seen that much of a difference. Had a Kitakaze forget how much time was on his smoke, ended up broadside to my AL at 5km. Full salvo of AP, half his HP was gone. About what would have happened before the change. The difference is now I don't wait for them to angle, I just unload. Believe me, 5 or 6 overpens from 16in guns is still nasty.

Now, the other night I had a shima yolo me in the AL right at the start of the game. Basically bow on, 3 km (no, I have no idea what he was doing). Front turrets knocked off 9K HP, turned the ship, a Zao hit him for a couple thousand, and the rear turret finished him off. IMO he deserved that deletion. But I'm not sure he would have gotten it today. At least not before torping me. But that's pretty rare, so maybe not a big deal. I get why they did it this way, but I think it's a little too much. I get the random pens are bad, but I also believe that BBs should be able to delete a DD that rushes them.

The problem here is that HE is unreliable. Saturation basically means your shell could do full damage, or it could do no damage. Also, in my opinion if you hit a DD with a 16" HE shell, that shell is going to do full potential damage. But, not in game because full HE damage is only done if it hits the citadel. But DDs don't have citadels! So you can never really use the full potential of your HE. So why would I load it? Even with the change, I'm probably going to do just as much damage with AP as HE realistically (in a BB). WG wants to make ammo choice in BBs a thing. But I still don't have any real incentive to switch to HE (maybe if a DD is the only thing left, or I know he's specifically hunting me). If you want me to use HE on DDs, make HE more reliable. Maybe come up with a way for the shell to do full damage to a DD. Personally, I think DDs should be given a citadel, a very, very small one, to simulate the very few places (keel pieces, reduction gear housings, turbines) that will arm a AP shell. That way the vast majority of shots do minimal damage, but eventually something is going to connect.

 

Also, OP, I believe penetration damage is 33% of full damage, not 30%. Small difference, but might as well be precise.

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Just now, WES_HoundDog said:

Because 2 overpens is either a lucky shot or in a place where you can absolutely lay into them.   Sure you can hit with more but your just as likely to hit with less or even none.   2k damage where they make a mistake or you get a nice rng roll is a joke.

Then add on the fact that they can do 2k damage to bb's in about 10 seconds or less as opposed to the bb reload of 30 secs on average.  Oh and thats from any angle armor need not apply,  and that's not counting the fires that do BB AP citadel amount of damage if you don't use damage control which for the most part your not damage controling one fire.

All of that above is not too bad until you add in that dd's can still easily wipe out half a bb's health or a lot more with their main weapons which bb's can't.

Do you think having a10k damage salvo against a TX BB is a crappy salvo when you are in a battleship? Because it's the same percentage wise as 2k is on most TX destroyers, actually less meaningful once you factor in heals.

And BBs who lose 50% of their HP to torpedoes almost always have made major mistakes to take that many torpedoes. And for fun, let's look at this anyways. A BB taking 50k damage at TX is about 50% of their health, which also means that a destroyer lost about 1:30 worth of torpedo time. In that timeframe, a battleship can get off 3-4 salvos - with 2 overpens a salvo, that's... well gee, it turns out that is over 50% of the destroyer HP gone too!

People just seem to want BBs to be so idiot proof. I don't get it. All other classes have mistakes punished quickly but the second WG adds a change letting a mispositioning mistake on a BB get sort of punished, people go nuts. If you get wrecked by a DD yolo torping you you made a mistake earlier. 

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You can also take a skill like Expert Loader, a previously laughed at, niche, skill.

Some of the special captains also have an extra quick EL

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its already hard to see DD..now Ap doesnt work..meh..to much whining making everything useless..keep up whining..more nerf are coming..dammit..zzzzz

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2 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

 If you get wrecked by a DD yolo torping you you made a mistake earlier. 

Not necessarily. If DDs learn they can run up to BBs and torp them at point blank range with little consequence, that's not good. Look at it from the other direction. If a DD is torping a BB from less than 5km, they're the ones that have screwed up (or both parties have). The BB is probably toast, but if your BB is most likely gone, then so should the DD if we apply your theory of equal damage. The DD is the more mobile one, so it's easier for him to get within 5 km of a BB than the other way around. The DD has tool to keep the BB (or any other ship) off his back. The BB should have that too. I do agree with you though that at longer ranges, the BB AP should be less effective on DDs.

Now, you could argue that you want to encourage people to get close. I don't necessarily disagree, but that has to work both ways, and is a completely different conversation.

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6 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Do you think having a10k damage salvo against a TX BB is a crappy salvo when you are in a battleship? Because it's the same percentage wise as 2k is on most TX destroyers, actually less meaningful once you factor in heals.

And BBs who lose 50% of their HP to torpedoes almost always have made major mistakes to take that many torpedoes. And for fun, let's look at this anyways. A BB taking 50k damage at TX is about 50% of their health, which also means that a destroyer lost about 1:30 worth of torpedo time. In that timeframe, a battleship can get off 3-4 salvos - with 2 overpens a salvo, that's... well gee, it turns out that is over 50% of the destroyer HP gone too!

People just seem to want BBs to be so idiot proof. I don't get it. All other classes have mistakes punished quickly but the second WG adds a change letting a mispositioning mistake on a BB get sort of punished, people go nuts. If you get wrecked by a DD yolo torping you you made a mistake earlier. 

The point is WG said they dont want a BB's to only have to shoot AP and not switch ammo types. This "fix" does not remedy that issue. Keep shooting only AP.

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I couldn't wait for this change now BB are gonna like me so much in my Daring ! Burn baby burn !

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2 hours ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

Shut up and build your BBs for secondaries. AP fire at DDs was always chancy. This won't change it that much. With the change implemented a 4-shell hit will probably kill the DD. If you have the right captain's skills and flags up your secondaries should do the rest if the DD is not dead yet. And WASD hack like crazy, because if you can see the DD and no one else is spotting for you, which is usually the case because everyone flees DDs like poison, chances are she has already fired her torps at you! Welcome to Davy Jones' Locker!

Secondaries are useless on pretty much every BB except for Massachusetts and Bismarck.  Points put into secondaries are worth far less than the mandatory survivability talents like fire prevention and concealment expert.

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Given that expert loader is still a waste of points yes keep shooting AP unless you have brit flamethrower. AP is still better in 95% of cases, 6+ overpens will still trash a DD good and proper.

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3 hours ago, WES_HoundDog said:

then cut all those HE values in half after saturation which happens after one hit.

Don't forget modules absorbing the HE shells so that DD that takes an entire Conqueror HE salvo barely gets scratched somehow.

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There is no reason for a BB (unless RN) to ever fire HE, OP AP damage is roughly equal to full penetration HE damage but AP can be used on all targets, and HE is useless against non DD targets.

If BB HE penetration damage was raised to say 50% of shell damage there would actually be incentive to fire HE as it would hit for 2x OP AP damage, not the same.

Typical example: NC AP 13100 damage, HE 5700 damage; AP OP damage = 1310, HE PEN damage = 1881

Compare this to: Lion AP 13000, HE 7200, AP OP damage = 1300, HE PEN damage = 2376

 

edit:

Yamato is an exception: AP 14800, HE 7300; AP OP = 1480, HE PEN = 2409

But why would you load AP with Yamato to begin with?

 

 

Edited by reaper_swpz

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3 hours ago, enderland07 said:

Why do people think this?

People seem to think shooting a DD and "only" doing 2 overpens worth of damage is actually a bad thing for some reason.

  • DD gameplay changes based on how much HP you have. Even if you "only" lose 20-30% of your HP initially, that means you have a harder time actively contesting vs other DDs
  • DDs mostly cannot heal damage
  • A single overpen at TX is ~7% of a DD's entire HP pool, gone permanently (except a few DDs)
  • More people shooting at a DD mean they are more likely to disengage 

 

you forget this key caveat.

 

DESTROYERS. CHOOSE. WHEN. TO. ENGAGE. THEIR. TARGET. THEY. HAVE. THE. ALL. POWERFUL. STEALTH. ADVANTAGE. THE. ENTIRE. GAME. UNLESS. THEY. CHOOSE. TO. SHOOT. THEIR. GUNS.

 

Ignoring the 4km suicide torps of some russian dd, every single DD, especially at high tier, is able stealth torp. That means they can engage a target, in fact they can ONE SHOT a target if the target moves in a straight line, without ever being spotted. and lets also look at what advantages a DD has to prevent them from taking huge hits from a battleship.

 

They are the SMALLEST target in the game.

They are the FASTEST target in the game.

They are the most AGILE target in the game.

They are the STEALTHIEST target in the game.

 

Now lets look at the DIRECT complaint that is supposedly an issue, that is battleships being able to delete destroyers with a few AP volleys.

 

A battleship has the LONGEST loading guns in the game.

A battleship has the LEAST accurate guns in the game.

They have the slowest turret traversal in the game.

 

All this change does is prove that battleship players are screwed, and this game is favoring destroyers more and more now.

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On top of the changes to AP WG really should make the rudder shift time a lot slower on all the BB, how dare a BB turn and avoid my torps, I have been saying this all along, in the baking forums

I want to have my cake and eat it too.

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2 hours ago, NeoRussia said:

Don't forget modules absorbing the HE shells so that DD that takes an entire Conqueror HE salvo barely gets scratched somehow.

this is why i almost never bother with HE vs DDs.  When you land several hits, and only one damages, it feels pretty worthless where as there is a chance that AP would continue on and do damage.  There are some annoyances for the DD like setting fires and knocking out modules(which can full reset torp reload times), but i would rather do the damage that almost all DDs cant heal back. 

while DD and cruiser HE has a similar problem, they have DPM to make up for it.  As others have said, every bit of damage counts, especially on those that cant heal.    i am happy for every bit of damage i can get on a DD.

 

amusingly, when WG was going to make shooting AA, secondaries, turrets, etc., do damage, everyone was focusing on how much it would hurt BBs and cruisers.  While i agree it would hurt them(especially the torp belt one), it would also mean DDs who would normally avoid a lot of damage thanks to module hits, would instead take guaranteed damage they cant heal back.(normally)

 

Anyways, outside of RN BB HE, I find that BB AP that OP is only slightly worse in damage compared to HE, if HE actually pens for damage.  Now, i do find if you can catch a DD showing broadside and relatively close, that is when BB HE can really do some solid damage, as you are more than likely going to hit the hull.

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