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Miku_Empowered

WG's nerf priorities is abit wth, but justified

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So much people crying over Yue yang's nerf..... its not like its crapnow, 4s reload is still pretty decent. it just wasn't AS good.

I mean, WG could either nerf her weapon. or remove the radar.

20s on torpedo reload is a pretty big nerf but its still the super deep water stealth torps like before. Not like they suddenly pulled a IJN torp [edited].

Stats wise Yue yang did need a nerf imo. its 8k ahead in average damage compared to Gearing, 12k compared to shima and a whooping 18k to z52. The only one ahead in terms of damage is.... the broke [edited]gunboats but that's a different discussion. In terms of WR, the only one ahead is.... the daring.... and considering how long daring has been released, and the fact Yue yang has 17times more battles than daring. I'll say Yue yang's stats are much more justified for a nerf when compared to the Shimakaze.

you know what should be changed?

royal bb he, like everyone knows this. conq has a 10k lead in damage compared to the 2nd ship, and a whooping 20k lead against GK, same with KGV.

You know who doesn't get effected by the bb ap change against dd? the ones that are spamming he 80% of the time before the patch *cough* brits *cough*

And I legitimately believe WG will nerf the brit he. just not now *cough*moar $$*cough*, in order to promote a more balanced game play.

So this is based on a potato's pure speculations, but ME THINKS, WG's nerfs are MOSTLY valid and reasonable, but always late to the party, and thus always generate a massive crapstorm *cough*$$ gold camo$$ *cough*, at least they're trying to keep this game balanced, which is nice.

 

On a side note, you know what would might encourage wg to stop pulling craplike this? heres a batshit insane idea: stop buying/grinding/free xping new ship line, or camo that are clearly wth dumbed down or super good, wait till a few balance tweaks kick in first. you know, just like PREORDERING. yeah I know, pretty insane concept.

speaking of preorder, I can totally see WG going for a future "repurchase this premium ship for $$$ and get access to the tech tr-" oh wait, they already do.

 

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While British battleships may have a higher average damage, this damage is actually often less effective as 100% of fire damage can be healed back.
In general, Conqueror may be annoying to fight and bad game design. (Don't get me started on how much I hate how she's implemented and could have been done somewhat well.) But overpowered, she is not.
But, considering the state at British HE realistically and the formula used, her HE is realistic if annoying.

While British battleships may have a higher average damage, this damage is actually often less effective as 100% of fire damage can be healed back.
In general, Conqueror may be annoying to fight and bad game design. (Don't get me started on how much I hate how she's implemented and could have been done somewhat well.) But overpowered, she is not.
But, considering the state at British HE realistically and the formula used, her HE is realistic if annoying.

And the primary reason people are upset at the Yueyang nerf is it's a huge nerf to an extent that the tier 9 is now arguably more competitive. 

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The nerf, or at least how it was implented, is beyond stupid. We agree that the torps are very dangerous, and so I agree with the torp reload nerf. But a 33% gun dpm nerf, when YY can't even torp enemy DDs, is going to kill this ship in knife fights.

Let's compare to the other DDs now, shall we?

- Gearing: Around the same spotting range and has a 21mm belt to shatter some DD HE. Now can greatly overpower a Yueyang in a knife fight, and still torp it's smoke if it tries to hide. Advantage very definitely Gearing.

- Z-52: Same 4s rate of fire. But also has crazy strong AP against broadsiding high tier DDs. It also has long range Hydro and smoke which can counter any DD hard. The only way to deal with an entrenched Z-52 is to torp his smoke. I'm sure you can see the problem here.

- Grozovoi: Same rate of fire as Yueyang, but with MUCH better guns, especially at longer ranges. Also has a heal. There's no way a YY can survive a dual against a competent Grozovoi player. Only danger to Grozovoi are torps because of it's sluggish nature, but ... see above.

- Shimakaze: Also 6 guns, 2150 HE damage and high fire chance. Reload of 5.74s with that alpha is not that bad. Obviously, YY is still going to win this engagement normally ... if it ever sees the Shima, the best tier 10 concealment in the game.

- Khab: Do I even need to go here?

-  Daring: Daring with IFHE will absolutely murder a spotted Yueyang. With a 3s reload, YY could hold it's own (to an extent given Daring's heal). Now it has no chance.

So in the end, if Wargaming wanted to turn YY into a pure torp boat that needs to avoid most other DDs at all costs, then they have succeeded. It ain't gunboating full health anything other than a Shima without backup now. It NEEDED the torp nerf. It most certainly did not need the gun nerf.

Edited by KaptainKaybe
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On 11/21/2018 at 5:10 PM, Kaga_Kai_Ni said:

While British battleships may have a higher average damage, this damage is actually often less effective as 100% of fire damage can be healed back.
In general, Conqueror may be annoying to fight and bad game design. (Don't get me started on how much I hate how she's implemented and could have been done somewhat well.) But overpowered, she is not.
But, considering the state at British HE realistically and the formula used, her HE is realistic if annoying.

While British battleships may have a higher average damage, this damage is actually often less effective as 100% of fire damage can be healed back.
In general, Conqueror may be annoying to fight and bad game design. (Don't get me started on how much I hate how she's implemented and could have been done somewhat well.) But overpowered, she is not.
But, considering the state at British HE realistically and the formula used, her HE is realistic if annoying.

And the primary reason people are upset at the Yueyang nerf is it's a huge nerf to an extent that the tier 9 is now arguably more competitive. 

See, the argument fire damage can be healed back is... not really valid in the case of conqueror, BB with heal, if all charges are expended, has around 184% total hp (with the heal flag), a single fire can burn to 18%, modules and aa aside, in a long lasting engagement (lets say its just 2 ship long range pissing at each other), a typical conq can at least get 10 fire, and all of a sudden you're looking at 180% burn damage, and the [edited] part is thats ONLY fire damage. 

HE from conq only gets healed 50%, whats even worse is while damage saturation is a thing, when you press that repair button, the damaged part becomes healed, and mitigates the damage saturation.

 

Yueyang is still competitive, it's gun power is similar to Grozovoi, and groz is anything but weak gunned. it just wasn't AS good.

The t9 is literally a Fletcher, and many people consider Fletcher to be more competitive than gearing.

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59 minutes ago, Miku_Empowered said:

See, the argument fire damage can be healed back is... not really valid in the case of conqueror, BB with heal, if all charges are expended, has around 184% total hp (with the heal flag), a single fire can burn to 18%, modules and aa aside, in a long lasting engagement (lets say its just 2 ship long range pissing at each other), a typical conq can at least get 10 fire, and all of a sudden you're looking at 180% burn damage, and the [edited] part is thats ONLY fire damage. 

HE from conq only gets healed 50%, whats even worse is while damage saturation is a thing, when you press that repair button, the damaged part becomes healed, and mitigates the damage saturation.

 

Yueyang is still competitive, it's gun power is similar to Grozovoi, and groz is anything but weak gunned. it just wasn't AS good.

The t9 is literally a Fletcher, and many people consider Fletcher to be more competitive than gearing.

Its the exact same DPM as Groz, except it doesn't get a heal, suffers from ballistics that mean it wont hit the Groz or other DDs beyond around 7km, can't torp a DD, is slower, and comes with 2400 less HP.

The only reason you bring a Yueyang is to be a radar bot, which is going to be map based and team comp based.

You bring a Groz or Harugumo for everything else. Barring some meme Gearing smoke comp.

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When you get to play them you'll realize that RN BBs are pretty awful in general and are not even close to being as good as other BBs are at playing like BBs. Even battlecruisers have more punishing AP salvos unless you're playing the lower tier ones. The reason why Conqueror has high damage average is because it has great survivability compared to cruisers so it survives longer to put out more damage than cruisers do generally and takes more risks. Among top 5% cruisers are much closer to Conqueror because good players can survive more. 

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On 11/21/2018 at 5:29 PM, Miku_Empowered said:

royal bb he, like everyone knows this. conq has a 10k lead in damage compared to the 2nd ship, and a whooping 20k lead against GK, same with KGV.

And what on earth would you nerf? Remember the KM line has the same 1/4 pen the RN line has AND with faster RoF AND with even harder to hit citadels AND with free-damage secondaries. The only reason the the RN line is a 'problem' to some is that it was ADVERTISED as having potent HE, so people actually use it, and as such, more likely have HE loaded to fire at targets of opportunity.

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On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 5:29 PM, Miku_Empowered said:

So much people crying over Yue yang's nerf..... its not like its crapnow, 4s reload is still pretty decent. it just wasn't AS good.

I mean, WG could either nerf her weapon. or remove the radar.

20s on torpedo reload is a pretty big nerf but its still the super deep water stealth torps like before. Not like they suddenly pulled a IJN torp [edited].

Stats wise Yue yang did need a nerf imo. its 8k ahead in average damage compared to Gearing, 12k compared to shima and a whooping 18k to z52. The only one ahead in terms of damage is.... the broke [edited]gunboats but that's a different discussion. In terms of WR, the only one ahead is.... the daring.... and considering how long daring has been released, and the fact Yue yang has 17times more battles than daring. I'll say Yue yang's stats are much more justified for a nerf when compared to the Shimakaze.

you know what should be changed?

royal bb he, like everyone knows this. conq has a 10k lead in damage compared to the 2nd ship, and a whooping 20k lead against GK, same with KGV.

You know who doesn't get effected by the bb ap change against dd? the ones that are spamming he 80% of the time before the patch *cough* brits *cough*

And I legitimately believe WG will nerf the brit he. just not now *cough*moar $$*cough*, in order to promote a more balanced game play.

So this is based on a potato's pure speculations, but ME THINKS, WG's nerfs are MOSTLY valid and reasonable, but always late to the party, and thus always generate a massive crapstorm *cough*$$ gold camo$$ *cough*, at least they're trying to keep this game balanced, which is nice.

 

On a side note, you know what would might encourage wg to stop pulling craplike this? heres a batshit insane idea: stop buying/grinding/free xping new ship line, or camo that are clearly wth dumbed down or super good, wait till a few balance tweaks kick in first. you know, just like PREORDERING. yeah I know, pretty insane concept.

speaking of preorder, I can totally see WG going for a future "repurchase this premium ship for $$$ and get access to the tech tr-" oh wait, they already do.

 

The nerfs are not justified.

DDs are and have been the lowest performing ship since the game was playable at any stage. Yue Yang performs well, but being the "highest performer" .... WITHIN a ship type is absolutely zero basis for balance changes. There will always be a highest performer within a ship type, and even based on their claimed reasoning for the nerf they further prove their hypocrisy. Where are the nerfs to the highest performing CA and BBs? Also, Yue Yang is performing lower than quite a few T8-10 CAs and BBs. That means there they are beyond any sensible reasoning for nerfing it.

Conqueror, just like when it came out before it received the first nerf it got, was not overperforming "within the BB ship type". It simply ended up, in design, to be the best BB at killing other BBs. It has bad accuracy, and is great at doing HE damage an starting fires. It is also hard to citadel, this already makes it better against other BBs more so than DDs and CAs. It is common knowledge that WG favors BBs, they have catered to them since 2015, so it isn't surprising that a BB which has a "little" internal countering power, even though still less deadly internally compared to DDs, is going to get nerfed. Just as it wouldn't surprise me if later it receives buffs that make it specifically better against Cruisers and DDs and even weaker against BBs.


Yes, the Conqueror deserved a nerf, but going by any sensible and logical conclusion one could gain from the data, the evidence, it is hardly most overpowered BB, and BBs as a ship type need nerfs anyway.

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24 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

You are overly focused on damage as a metric.

Perhaps, but for a Yue Yang (or any tech-tree Pan-Asian DD, for that matter), gun damage is the only weapon it has against other destroyers. It doesn't matter as much for those working up to her - they won't miss what they never had - but current users are justified in being annoyed.

Of course, just as important is the ability to actually put all those shells on target, but all else being equal I can understand the unpleasant reaction of the YY playerbase.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu
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Like the Alsace Double nerf, I would have like to have seen it done in 2 releases to see if it really needed 2 nerfs.  Do 1 either the torps or the guns, then if necessary do the other is how I would have done it, and I am in computer programming.  Nerf 1 thing might have been all you needed to do to bring it back in line.

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YY nerf is funny, because it brings down its effectiveness to lower than Korean Fletcher, forgot name

Chung Mu
161,640 HE DPM
19,033 dmg, 106s reload, 66 knot, 10.5km torps

vs.

Yue Yang
162,000 HE DPM
17,900 dmg, 156s reload, 68 knot, 13.5km torps

Edited by MrDeaf

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All WG did was screw over the random player base with the YY nerfs. It will likely still be used in competitive because of radar where solo DD gun fights are seldom.

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5 hours ago, _RC1138 said:

And what on earth would you nerf? Remember the KM line has the same 1/4 pen the RN line has AND with faster RoF AND with even harder to hit citadels AND with free-damage secondaries. The only reason the the RN line is a 'problem' to some is that it was ADVERTISED as having potent HE, so people actually use it, and as such, more likely have HE loaded to fire at targets of opportunity.

The RN BBs are overall balanced. People just hate on them because they have exceptionally potent HE by BB standards, meaning those BBs are actually inclined to use it.

I'd say the only real issue they have is that they are far too resistant to citadel damage as their citadels are deeply submerged. Wargaming considers it a problem as the Germans are supposed to be the line that sacrifices long range accuracy for that durability. And they are still very susceptible to heavy regular AP pen damage, unlike the British.

I think they need to make the British even more glass cannon. Raise their citadels to the waterline (not above, but just at), but also give them the same dispersion ellipse as the premiums and perhaps boost their sigma. Make those guns deadly accurate at the expense of making those ships more fragile.

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19 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

The RN BBs are overall balanced. People just hate on them because they have exceptionally potent HE by BB standards,

But they really are not. If you look at the Conq vs. the GK, in regard to HE performance, side by side, you see not a huge discrepency:

Conq:

4x3 419mm Guns

24.3 km Range

792 m/s MV

7200 Max HE Alpha (Cit)

2376 HE Max Pen Alpha

48% Fire Chance

302 Max Dispersion (no mod)

2 RPM

GK:

4x3 420mm guns

20.6 km Range

810 m/s MV

5000 Max HE Alpha (Cit)

1650 HE Max Pen Alpha

41% Fire Chance

267 Max Dispersion (no mod)

32 Sec Reload

And both use the same 1/4 Pen rules

So the Conq has ~44% more Alpha damage, which sounds like a lot, but translates into only 756 HP less, or less than a single overpen from any other TX BB. And it's fire% is a mere 7% higher. And in turn, it has essentially no secondaries, MUCH less health (~20k less), an easier (not easy, but EASIER) to hit cit, no sonar to keep pesky torps at bay, and worse velocity retention on shells. All this it trades for stealthier, better heal, and... that's about it.

Again, the only reason people use HE on the Conq (or other RN BB's) is that it was ADVERTISED and EMPHASIZED as such; it works by the numbers EXACTLY the same as on these other ships.

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44% extra HE dpm is NOT something small, lol. It's not like these BBs will only land a single shell. The sum total of shells that connect do add up quite a bit. The advantage with the RN BBs is that in a bow on engagement with other BBs, the Royal Navy ships will generally come out on top as they can out HE dpm and out heal the competition.

Not I'm not saying these ships are better. But I do think they are balanced. People just hate on RN BBs because they can't angle against HE shells and hence will start to cry and stomp their feet and call those ships braindead (although given they can't really be punished for going broadside, it's not entirely untrue).

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5 hours ago, Helstrem said:

You are overly focused on damage as a metric.

Fancy that, people focus on the only thing the game rewards in any meaningful way.

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Just now, KiyoSenkan said:

Fancy that, people focus on the only thing the game rewards in any meaningful way.

So focus on the rewards, but that has literally nothing to do with the OP's complaints.  He doesn't think RN BBs need a nerf because they get too much EXP or credits.  He thinks they need a nerf because they do too much damage, never mind that most of them lag their competition in win rate and he can't comprehend that fire damage is of drastically lower value than penetration or citadel damage.

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6 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

YY nerf is funny, because it brings down its effectiveness to lower than Korean Fletcher, forgot name

Chung Mu
161,640 HE DPM
19,033 dmg, 106s reload, 66 knot, 10.5km torps

vs.

Yue Yang
162,000 HE DPM
17,900 dmg, 156s reload, 68 knot, 13.5km torps

This is good, because we know where the next nerf will be.  Soon they will nerf this to a much worse than Fletcher level.  They will skip Hsienyang because it's already worse than Benson.  Then GM to worse then Jervis and Fushun worse than Gnevny.  At that point, there bloodlust will finally be sated and everyone will forget PADDs exist.

Edited by Rainman106
Needless capitalization.

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 Wargaming considers it a problem as the Germans are supposed to be the line that sacrifices long range accuracy for that durability.

The problem there really is that they are so intent on making certain things characteristic of entire lines.

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On 11/21/2018 at 6:10 PM, Kaga_Kai_Ni said:

While British battleships may have a higher average damage, this damage is actually often less effective as 100% of fire damage can be healed back.
In general, Conqueror may be annoying to fight and bad game design. (Don't get me started on how much I hate how she's implemented and could have been done somewhat well.) But overpowered, she is not.
But, considering the state at British HE realistically and the formula used, her HE is realistic if annoying.

While British battleships may have a higher average damage, this damage is actually often less effective as 100% of fire damage can be healed back.
In general, Conqueror may be annoying to fight and bad game design. (Don't get me started on how much I hate how she's implemented and could have been done somewhat well.) But overpowered, she is not.
But, considering the state at British HE realistically and the formula used, her HE is realistic if annoying.

And the primary reason people are upset at the Yueyang nerf is it's a huge nerf to an extent that the tier 9 is now arguably more competitive. 

100% of the fire can be healed, but u still get heaping mounds if shell hits that can only be 50% healed.  Plus, you force a dcp burn which then means 100% of the dmg sticks. On top of that HE deals dmg far easier and more consistently than Ap, since it doesnt care as much about armor and angle, letting you get dmg you otherwise wouldnt get with AP.  Soooo, go away with the "but it can all be healed", cuz its not that cut n dry.

Edited by KnightFandragon

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9 hours ago, Helstrem said:

You are overly focused on damage as a metric.

Yep. @Miku_Empowered I put up the numbers on battles and T10 BBs a few weeks ago. Nobody plays Conk. Its the least played T10 BB. Everyone smart has figured out that its gaudy damage numbers are irrelevant: Conk cant carry. If you want to affect the match outcome, any other T10 BB is better.

So Conk doesnt need a nerf. It needs a complete restructuring as an AP centric BB so that it becomes useful to players who play to win.

PS. Fire mostly AP when you are in Conk. You will do better.

Edited by Taichunger

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