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LoveBote

Azuma is proof, that Stalingrad is OP

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The proposed super cruiser tier 10, Azuma, is an admission by WG that Stalingrad, was released in an OP condition.

azuma.jpg&key=2148c26b3353eaa7d23d4dbf5e001937ec6ae0f99b89d9e061e4547170b2eb54

Why?

Spoiler

ST, Japanese cruiser Azuma, tier X

Hit points – 71800. Plating - 25 mm.
Main battery - 3x3 310 mm. Firing range - 19.1 km.
Maximum HE shell damage – 5100. Chance to cause fire – 27%. Maximum AP shell damage - 8650....
Reload time - 18.0 s. 180 degree turn time - 36.0 s. Maximum dispersion - 196 м.
HE initial velocity - 836 m/s. AP initial velocity - 836 m/s. Sigma – 2.0.
Maximum speed - 34 kt. Turning circle radius - 920 m. Rudder shift time – 13.9 s. Surface detectability – 15.1 km. Air detectability – 13.4 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 11.7 km.

AA defense:
- 12x2 40.0 mm, range - 3.5 km, damage per second - 132.
- 18x3 25.0 mm, range - 3.1 km, damage per second - 110.
- 8x2 100.0 mm, range - 5.0 km, damage per second - 166.

Available consumables:
- 1 slot - Damage Control Party
- 2 slot - Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA fire
- 3 slot - Spotting Aircraft
- 4 slot - Repair Party

Azuma with the proposed stats, without special rules for her AP, is essentially, a nerfed Stalingrad. This does not mean she is a bad ship, not at all, Azuma will be perfectly capable vs her peers, but she will not be capable of influencing battle outcomes as greatly as Stalingrad, when driven by unicum players. Stalingrad has quickly asserted a role as the "Belfast of tier 10", the "Graf Zeppelin press battle2win bote", in the hands of competent owners, according to respected EU server commentators.

There are two ways WG can address a problem, which by releasing Azuma, it is admitting, 

  • a) By releasing Azuma, WG can permanently remove Stalingrad from the Arsenal.
  • b) Stalingrad can be nerfed to specifications identical to its tier 10 sister ship, Moskva, becoming in all but name, a Moskva skin.

B) is unlikely, as WG has a policy of not nerfing premium ships 

A) is possible, numerous examples of this having occured (Kutusov, Belfast, just to name 2)

In the same vein, the release of Jean Bart (an uptiered t8 Richelieu) can be interpreted as a rebuke to game development/production that has downtiered tier 10s and flooded tier 9 gameplay with, frankly sharks in a goldfish bowl, Yamato>Musashi, Moskva>Kronstadt, which has created the untenable position of the likes of a tier 9 Ibuki, fighting tier 10 ready Kronstadts, or Alsaces expected to go toe to toe vs tier 10 capable Musashis. Is the removal of Musashi from the Arsenal yet more evidence of a shift in WG game developmental policy.

All of the above is my personal opinion, largely inspired by some EU forum discussions.

What do you all think?

EU debate : 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/108941-the-azuma-the-poor-mans-stalingrad/

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38 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

Azuma with the proposed stats, without special rules for her AP, is essentially, a nerfed Stalingrad. 

Or maybe, WG intends both ships to perform different roles, and so a direct stat comparison is pointless.

Might as well hold Zao next to Moskva and then attempt to draw conclusions out of it, only looking at a few stats.

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Azuma isn't even that much nerfed from Stalingrad. Notably, her concealment allows her to play the 'cruiser hunter' role much more easily than Stalin, who gets spotted 2 kilometers before any cruiser other than Moskva. She's able to equip hydro, which keeps her safe in the close ranges that she is capable of playing at. She's also got much improved HE compared to Stalin, to make up for the lack of 'special' AP - higher alpha damage and quicker reload.

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9 minutes ago, dukelego said:

that sigma though

Low shell velocity (compared to Moskva and Stalingrad), while sigma won't tell the full the story of the ability to land hits, reliably or not.

huge turning circle, poor fire chance means reliance on AP, Azuma looks beautiful, but look more closely at the stats, possibly maybe not so good.

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6 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

Low shell velocity (compared to Moskva and Stalingrad), while sigma won't tell the full the story of the ability to land hits, reliably or not.

huge turning circle, poor fire chance means reliance on AP, Azuma looks beautiful, but look more closely at the stats, possibly maybe not so good.

hopefully heavily subject to change.

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2 hours ago, LoveBote said:

Azuma with the proposed stats, without special rules for her AP, is essentially, a nerfed Stalingrad. This does not mean she is a bad ship, not at all, Azuma will be perfectly capable vs her peers, but she will not be capable of influencing battle outcomes as greatly as Stalingrad, when driven by unicum players. Stalingrad has quickly asserted a role as the "Belfast of tier 10", the "Graf Zeppelin press battle2win bote", in the hands of competent owners, according to respected EU server commentators.

What about those folks who by grit, got enough steel to get her?

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10 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

What about those folks who by grit, got enough steel to get her?

Hey I am not proposing that Stalingrad be removed from the Arsenal, I am merely reporting that commentators on EU forum think WG will do so (and that I think they maybe right). I guess those who save steel specifically for Brokengrad will gnash their teeth, tear their hair out, butt the wall in frustration, cry salty tears, compose epic NA forum rants, downvote people who say anything that makes their butts itch. You know, the usual stuff.

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5 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

Hey I am not proposing that Stalingrad be removed from the Arsenal, I am merely reporting that commentators on EU forum think WG will do so (and that I think they maybe right). I guess those who save steel specifically for Brokengrad will gnash their teeth, tear their hair out, butt the wall in frustration, cry salty tears, compose epic NA forum rants, downvote people who say anything that makes their butts itch. You know, the usual stuff.

If that's the case, this 0.7.11 and 0.7.12  is going to be the time to grab her.

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2 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

If that's the case, this 0.7.11 and 0.7.12  is going to be the time to grab her.

Absolutely, if you have the steel, it may be now or never. It is very unlikely Stalingrad would ever be nerfed, in the past, they have always dealt with premium ships they consider too strong, by making them inaccessible.

This theory, about Stalingrad being removed and replaced by an "inferior" Azuma, maybe wrong of course. 

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2 hours ago, LoveBote said:

Low shell velocity (compared to Moskva and Stalingrad)

According to people on reddit the Azuma has a 10.7 second flight time out to 20km....compared to the Stalingrad's 10.04 and the Moskva's 10.4.  So the Azuma is obviously going to be a little worse, but her shell arcs honestly look like they'll still be very good. 

That being said, I do agree with you that based on the preliminary data the Azuma looks more like a Tier 9 than a Tier 10.  She does have slightly better reload, a slightly better dispersion curve and considerably better stealth than the Stalingrad, but I'm not sure it's enough to make up for all her other downsides.  That being said, the ship is still in development and will almost certainly change when it goes through testing, so it's a little premature to get up in arms about the how it will stack up with the Stalingrad.  

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I feel this theory crafting is purely wrong though I can see wg swapping the two for the sake of swapping them.

1. Stalingrad is not a Moskva and never will be.

2. Azuma plays a similar role but plays differently: see zuikatsus post above.

3. Low velocity shells are in no way a judgement of how good her ap will be (like how everyone underestimates zao ap).

4. EU is just full of booty hurt people. ANY ship driven by good players will of course be good, Stalingrad is a great reward ship and was rightfully given as a reward, in time others will get her as well but currently ranked and cw season 1-3 players have her. Azuma is no different and will be a great boat used by good players.

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1 minute ago, yashma said:

That being said, the ship is still in development and will almost certainly change when it goes through testing, so it's a little premature to get up in arms about the how it will stack up with the Stalingrad.  

This 

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3 minutes ago, yashma said:

According to people on reddit the Azuma has a 10.7 second flight time out to 20km....compared to the Stalingrad's 10.04 and the Moskva's 10.4.  So the Azuma is obviously going to be a little worse, but her shell arcs honestly look like they'll still be very good. 

That being said, I do agree with you that based on the preliminary data the Azuma looks more like a Tier 9 than a Tier 10.  She does have slightly better reload, a slightly better dispersion curve and considerably better stealth than the Stalingrad, but I'm not sure it's enough to make up for all her other downsides.  That being said, the ship is still in development and will almost certainly change when it goes through testing, so it's a little premature to get up in arms about the how it will stack up with the Stalingrad.  

Also this, but I don't agree like she looks like a tier 9. In fact I even think that Alaska should be a tier 10 instead. 

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or perhaps WG can learn from all of the games that can before theirs and all of the games that have come after which are far more successful and stop gating archetypes behind competitive mode/currency.

Notice how all of the successful games now only reward purely cosmetic content for competitive?   Notice how WoWs has a population that is even considered tiny compared to hardcore Mil-Sims?

It is akin to saying.... Well you have to play competitive with it's own rules and restrictions, and do very well against peers to unlock the "Mage" class.  No other game company does that, for good reason. The rest who tried are offline or ghost towns.

 

Edited by Sbane12
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if the ship is not slated to be a steel reward ship, then yes it should be a worse version of Stalingrad. 

Steel ships should be the pinnacle of performance, why would you waste your steel on the Stalin if you can just buy the Azuma with Free xp or Coal and it essentially does the same thing? 

Now if both ships are steel, then this is a mute point... But I have a feeling Azuma won't be a steel reward ship and if shes not, she should not be as good as Stalingrad. 

Its one of the reasons why i am so annoyed by Bon Jovi.. As a reward steel ship it shouldn't be a tier 9.5 bb 

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Or it could Azuma is the next tier 10 coal cruiser after Salem, after so many have gotten Salem.  We already got the next steel goal tier 10 ship.

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1 minute ago, Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao said:

Also this, but I don't agree like she looks like a tier 9. In fact I even think that Alaska should be a tier 10 instead. 

Maybe I'm just spoiled by the Stalingrad.....but just looking at her alpha, dispersion/sigma and penetration, she looks far more comparable to the Alaska than she does to the Stalingrad.  That being said....if reddit is true, her shell flight times are actually better than I would have guessed based on the initial muzzle velocity and she has better penetration than the Alaska at range.....so maybe she is a step above Tier 9.  But like I said, it's still way too early to know for sure, and simply giving her better dispersion/sigma would be more than enough to assuage all my doubts.  

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3 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

if the ship is not slated to be a steel reward ship, then yes it should be a worse version of Stalingrad. 

Steel ships should be the pinnacle of performance, why would you waste your steel on the Stalin if you can just buy the Azuma with Free xp or Coal and it essentially does the same thing? 

Now if both ships are steel, then this is a mute point... But I have a feeling Azuma won't be a steel reward ship and if shes not, she should not be as good as Stalingrad. 

Its one of the reasons why i am so annoyed by Bon Jovi.. As a reward steel ship it shouldn't be a tier 9.5 bb 

So in your words, the competitive rewards should offer an attributed advantage over non competitive rewards?

So your goal must be a dead game. lol

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3 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

if the ship is not slated to be a steel reward ship, then yes it should be a worse version of Stalingrad. 

Steel ships should be the pinnacle of performance, why would you waste your steel on the Stalin if you can just buy the Azuma with Free xp or Coal and it essentially does the same thing? 

Now if both ships are steel, then this is a mute point... But I have a feeling Azuma won't be a steel reward ship and if shes not, she should not be as good as Stalingrad. 

I'm conflicted here.  I don't think steel ships should be outright better than non-steel ships, but at the same time you do raise a valid point about steel ships needing to offer something "special" in order to be worth picking up given their incredibly high relative cost.  Rather than making them outright better than non steel ships, I'd generally just prefer they have some weird gimmick that makes them "different".  I'd also like to see WG specifically cater steel ships to the skilled player base by making them far more challenging and difficult to play, but with incredibly high skill ceilings.  Steel ships are unique in the fact the devs don't have to worry about how the average potato will perform so they have more creative license.

 

7 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

Its one of the reasons why i am so annoyed by Bon Jovi.. As a reward steel ship it shouldn't be a tier 9.5 bb 

I agree for the most part.

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19 minutes ago, yashma said:

I'm conflicted here.  I don't think steel ships should be outright better than non-steel ships, but at the same time you do raise a valid point about steel ships needing to offer something "special" in order to be worth picking up given their incredibly high relative cost.  Rather than making them outright better than non steel ships, I'd generally just prefer they have some weird gimmick that makes them "different".  I'd also like to see WG specifically cater steel ships to the skilled player base by making them far more challenging and difficult to play, but with incredibly high skill ceilings.  Steel ships are unique in the fact the devs don't have to worry about how the average potato will perform so they have more creative license.

 

I agree for the most part.

Thanks for taking what I said and making it a bit more clear, that is the essence of what I wanted to convey, that they need to be "different" 

The black is different in the sense that if offers a play style with a much higher ceiling of skill. It does require just that to achieve though, skill. 

Where as the Fletcher is still an amazing ship, but imo has a lower skill ceiling and a higher skill floor then the black. Just how the Moskva has a lower skill ceiling and a higher skill floor then the Stalingrad. 
 

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Azuma is also just now entering the testing cycle. It's very rare for a ship to come out the other end unchanged.

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30 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

Thanks for taking what I said and making it a bit more clear, that is the essence of what I wanted to convey, that they need to be "different" 

The black is different in the sense that if offers a play style with a much higher ceiling of skill. It does require just that to achieve though, skill. 

Where as the Fletcher is still an amazing ship, but imo has a lower skill ceiling and a higher skill floor then the black. Just how the Moskva has a lower skill ceiling and a higher skill floor then the Stalingrad. 
 

Except that is anti-thesis to balance.

The only equations that have "balance" on one end, require the following combinations:

Low skill floor + Low skill ceiling

High skill floor + High skill ceiling


Combinations like Low floor - high ceiling equate to nothing more than unbalanced, and should be corrected until it is in line with one of the above.

That is how balance works. The only time a combination like Low floor + high ceiling, or High floor+Low Ceiling actually equate to balance are in environments where ALL archetypes have equal floor+ceiling, which nullifies the situation of correct combinations being used in the same environment as *incorrect* combinations, which makes the *incorrect* combinations an automatic upgrade, rather than sidegrade.

A Low skill floor +High skill ceiling, in simpler terms, will be quantitatively observed through performance on the Leaderboards as one that performs better then the rest, not only at the bottom of the skill pools, but at the top s well. This means minimal to zero situation where said ship is inferior to another.  This is also another reason why low skill floor ships can never be "hybrid" or "Jack of all trades" types, as for it to even have the classification as low skill floor, that means it is naturally overperforming in multiple areas..... where as the necessary nomenclature for that statement is "Jack of all trades, MASTER OF NONE", thus being low skill floor and jack of all trades are contradictory from the get-go

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6 hours ago, Lert said:

Azuma is also just now entering the testing cycle. It's very rare for a ship to come out the other end unchanged.

No need to be sensible, now is the time, just as the Azuma is about to undergo testing and refinements, for the community to up arms, cry foul, build pyres, light torches, and claim the end of the universe is nye. Don't spoil the fun!

(Still, I feel there is some truth in the EU rumour mill, both the downtiered Musashi and Kronstadt being removed, an alternative to/replacement for Stalingrad in the works, an uptiered Jean Bart, and Bourgogne, tea leaf readings and horoscope projections, a funny shaped cloud, there is a pattern here)

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