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Dr_Venture

What's the deal with Italy?

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I really am starting to think there is a beef with Wargaming and the Italian government. The latest announcement for a straight up obsolete DD being shoved into tier 6 (which will see tier 8 all the time due to the new MM fix) is just...another bit of proof something is up.

I'm looking over damage for the Duca and the Abruzzi...and the numbers seem a bit off. Wows stats tells me Duca is past the bottom averaging 28k damage per battle. Abruzzi seems to be hovering at about 40k...yet that number is misleading...the heal...the heal keeps it in the fight longer...but still you would think that number would be higher. Roma seems to be slightly below the middle averaging at 59K damage.  Giulio Cesare is top dog at 52k...but we all know it was broken. 

PISC506.png.581b2013b388bfdb7cc90ceae7b0718f.png

"28K per battle! I'm a real contender boss!"

PISC507.png.eb2dedd78f4980fb0968bd1fa6e41e0e.png

"40k average damage, nope has nothing to do with the gimmick heal...nope..."

 

PISB508.png.8b3113ef84573510c3b4329430cad641.png

"I overpenn everything, my gimmick is [edited] stealth...but watch out here comes a DD hope he doesn't citadel me!"

 

PISB505.png.de1a12f69eca04be0f758d16140ac474.png

"I have become death, destroyer of worlds." 

-------------

So here I am...the lover of all things Italian. I really wanted Abruzzi because she just looked so damn good. I love everything Italy has to offer (hell my girlfriend is Italian!) Yet why is it so god damn hard for this game to give us something balanced from Italy? Arguably, the cruisers are overtiered (the fact you have to give a ship a heal to make it competitive tells me that) and the damage numbers are on the low side. Roma isn't even modeled correctly, and it's missing it's cruiser/dd ammo. The gun dispersion is frustrating...but when I connect on a cruiser I overpenn....and the fantasy "HE shell" they gave it...yeah. The armor was able to be citadelled by destroyers...

BUT WAIT! THERE IS MORE!

 

 

Words escape me, what the **** is this supposed to be? A joke? Is it bait to upset a volatile community? You're trying to tell me, that a destroyer circa 1917/1918 (but built in the 20's because italy was broke) is acceptable at tier 6? Do you guys even play your own game, because if you did you would know this thing...will see tier 8 a majority of the time. I can already see the community contributors sighing heavily when they are forced to test this. 

Yet for those who don't know about the Leone's...have a good read.

Note: take advantage of wikipedia's ability to see what ships succeeded and preceded others, there are MUCH better contenders for a solid tier 6.

Leone-class Destroyer

------

I'm seeing a trend here...Italy gets over tiered of given some sort of gimmick because "balance" issues. Arguably, if wargaming is going to give us a decent Italian ship line...a look at it's premiums are a good start.

First: Downtier Aosta and Abruzzi, give the captains compensation...and remove Abruzzi's heal. You will find both ships far more comfortable at those tiers (and less silly in the eyes of the community.

Second: Roma should have it's HE shells removed. Italy's flavor would be skill based, not gimmick based. HE in my eyes has been the go to ammo for the lazy, cool...I'll take a ship with no HE that has ammo designed to AP the crap out of cruisers and destroyers. Also...why hasn't the Pugliese system system been modeled? 

I really...want a good Italian tech tree...not something that is borked and more of a mess than the British filled with gimmicks. 

GIMMICKS ARE BAD - VERY - VERY - VERY - BAD

 

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That Italian DD does seem a bit out of place at tier 6, given that the DD itself was a very early 20's design.  It must have some very special guns, because its torps are almost non-existent.

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

That Italian DD does seem a bit out of place at tier 6, given that the DD itself was a very early 20's design.  It must have some very special guns, because its torps are almost non-existent.

If it's torps are REMOTELY like the Duca's....this ship is DoA.

"Sloth-torps" or "Sea Mines" can be funny...but they do little damage, and you end up going pink more tbh.

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9 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I'm seeing a trend here...Italy gets over tiered of given some sort of gimmick because "balance" issues. Arguably, if wargaming is going to give us a decent Italian ship line...a look at it's premiums are a good start.

First: Downtier Aosta and Abruzzi, give the captains compensation...and remove Abruzzi's heal. You will find both ships far more comfortable at those tiers (and less silly in the eyes of the community.

Second: Roma should have it's HE shells removed. Italy's flavor would be skill based, not gimmick based. HE in my eyes has been the go to ammo for the lazy, cool...I'll take a ship with no HE that has ammo designed to AP the crap out of cruisers and destroyers. Also...why hasn't the Pugliese system system been modeled? 

They won't down tier the cruisers.  I don't recall any instance of them down tiering any premium ship.  Instead, I'd rather see them just adjust the guns and their shells to make them more competitive.  That seems like a far more likely solution.

As for the Roma, no, do NOT remove the HE.  There should always be HE on BBs, unless and until they remove HE from ALL battleships.  Having HE or not is NOT a measure of skill.  Thinking otherwise is nonsense.  And particularly given the changes to BB AP, HE is necessary for dealing with DDs, particularly at shorter ranges.

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I disagree with you OP, all  Italian premiums are more than fine. Yes GC is performing too well, but then she has become the seal clubbers bb of choice at t6, which partly explains her overperformance. Duca is fine, excels at her role, Abruzzi is OP with the heal, it really would do well enough without it. Roma is middle of the road, but handles nicely.

So really there is nothing to complain about. I hope the t6 Italian dd follows this trend of ships with excellent handling, moderate dmg output, and trollish fun factor.

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4 minutes ago, Crucis said:

They won't down tier the cruisers.  I don't recall any instance of them down tiering any premium ship.  Instead, I'd rather see them just adjust the guns and their shells to make them more competitive.  That seems like a far more likely solution.

As for the Roma, no, do NOT remove the HE.  There should always be HE on BBs, unless and until they remove HE from ALL battleships.  Having HE or not is NOT a measure of skill.  Thinking otherwise is nonsense.  And particularly given the changes to BB AP, HE is necessary for dealing with DDs, particularly at shorter ranges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone_da_381/50_Ansaldo_M1934

Go to the part that says "SAP"

Now tell me that wouldn't be cool to have over HE.

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1 minute ago, Dr_Venture said:

If it's torps are REMOTELY like the Duca's....this ship is DoA.

"Sloth-torps" or "Sea Mines" can be funny...but they do little damage, and you end up going pink more tbh.

Well, with all that range, it can afford to take Torp Acceleration, but frankly IMO it really stinks to be forced into picking a skill just to make guns or torps at all useful.  It's like saying to the Leone that by default it gets 2 less skill points than other DDs.

But even if they were perfectly decent speed torpedoes, there are so damned few of them.  I mean, 4 torpedoes, 2 double launchers.  I suppose that they might not be sooo bad if the reload was quicker.  Hey, normally a 60 second reload would seem damned good.  But for a ship with only 4 tubes to reload, it seems rather sloth-like, even when you add in the torp reloading skill, which would reduce it to 54 seconds. 

I have to think that this DD is meant to be a gunboat with these torpedoes.

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5 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

I disagree with you OP, all  Italian premiums are more than fine. Yes GC is performing too well, but then she has become the seal clubbers bb of choice at t6, which partly explains her overperformance. Duca is fine, excels at her role, Abruzzi is OP with the heal, it really would do well enough without it. Roma is middle of the road, but handles nicely.

So really there is nothing to complain about. I hope the t6 Italian dd follows this trend of ships with excellent handling, moderate dmg output, and trollish fun factor.

How...the hell...do you think Abruzzi is OP? They melt even with glancing hits.

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6 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

I disagree with you OP, all  Italian premiums are more than fine. Yes GC is performing too well, but then she has become the seal clubbers bb of choice at t6, which partly explains her overperformance. Duca is fine, excels at her role, Abruzzi is OP with the heal, it really would do well enough without it. Roma is middle of the road, but handles nicely.

So really there is nothing to complain about. I hope the t6 Italian dd follows this trend of ships with excellent handling, moderate dmg output, and trollish fun factor.

I'm not sure that I can agree with you, LB.  The Italian cruisers seem very lackluster to me, because of their weak guns.  I enjoy the fact that they're fast.  And their slow  torpedoes have their uses.  But their short range, weak guns just aren't much fun.  To me, they need some help.

And BTW, the GC is a tier 5 BB, not tier 6.

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Just now, Dr_Venture said:

How...the hell...do you think Abruzzi is OP? They melt even with glancing hits.

IFHE, 14 pt captain. Up until that point, I agree, it can be hard work. But the hard work has a nice reward at the end.

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1 minute ago, Dr_Venture said:

How...the hell...do you think Abruzzi is OP? They melt even with glancing hits.

They're CL's.  All CL's, no matter the nation, tend to melt when a BB looks at them the wrong way.  That's the least of my worries with the Italian cruisers.

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Just now, LoveBote said:

IFHE, 14 pt captain. Up until that point, I agree, it can be hard work. But the hard work has a nice reward at the end.

I have IFHE on the A'osta and Concealment...and the damn thing still struggles to rack of damage. 

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5 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone_da_381/50_Ansaldo_M1934

Go to the part that says "SAP"

Now tell me that wouldn't be cool to have over HE.

Now that's a different story.  Your earlier post implied that they'd have only one ammo choice, AP.  You said nothing about SAP.  I think that I could deal with the idea of RM BBs having SAP and AP be their 2 ammo choices.

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28 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

Second: Roma should have it's HE shells removed. Italy's flavor would be skill based, not gimmick based. HE in my eyes has been the go to ammo for the lazy, cool...I'll take a ship with no HE that has ammo designed to AP the crap out of cruisers and destroyers. Also...why hasn't the Pugliese system system been modeled? 

Roma has pretty high TDS values, like 38%. The only other T8 BBs with higher than her are Amagi (43%), and the two SoDak sisters (49% bama and 46% mass). All other BBs at that tier are inferior in terms of torpedo protection. As for the HE shell, yeah it's bad and should be replaced with an actual SAP shell. Although with the 10% cap coming you may wish for those crappy HE shells unless WG had mercy and didn't hit the SAP shells with the same 10% cap the normal AP will be getting.

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8 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I'm not sure that I can agree with you, LB.  The Italian cruisers seem very lackluster to me, because of their weak guns.  I enjoy the fact that they're fast.  And their slow  torpedoes have their uses.  But their short range, weak guns just aren't much fun.  To me, they need some help.

And BTW, the GC is a tier 5 BB, not tier 6.

Short range? Agreed they are not snipers, Abruzzi is a dd hunter with its hydro and excellent turn rate, but at mid range it does fine. The guns do need help, that's where their dependance on IFHE comes in to play (for the cruisers).

 

7 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I have IFHE on the A'osta and Concealment...and the damn thing still struggles to rack of damage. 

Worry less about concealment when in battle, spend more time engaging the enemy and your dmg avg will rocket upwards/ Use your manouvrability to kite at the edge of your concealment - play it like a flamethrowing dd.

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12 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

Short range? Agreed they are not snipers, Abruzzi is a dd hunter with its hydro and excellent turn rate, but at mid range it does fine. The guns do need help, that's where their dependance on IFHE comes in to play (for the cruisers).

 

Welllll, I don't get too hot and bothered about the IFHE on CLs.  Sure, it might be nice if they had IHFE baked into their guns/shells.  But I do have expect CL's to either need IFHE or have it baked in, since as CLs they have smaller guns than CAs. Their gun range is painfully low, and IIRC their arcs aren't particularly high, so they have to work on finding islands they can lob shells over a little harder than, say, USN CLs.

As for their AP, I just don't know.  I think that I've heard different stories about their AP.  I think that I've heard some say that their AP is good, but I think that I've also heard some claim that their AP stinks.  So I don't know what to think about RM CL AP.  

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Their gun range is painfully low, and IIRC their arcs aren't particularly high, so they have to work on finding islands they can lob shells over a little harder than, say, USN CLs

I play both in the open water, using their manouvrability to dodge incoming. If you play them like USN CLs, I think you will not have very good results. They are not island campers. Can't speak for the AP, never bother using it, I go for a full IFHE +flamethrower build. A better comparison than the USN CLs, would be the IJN CAs, for playstyle. Despite the denomination as CL, as long as you don't go broadside to enemy battleships or AP slinging cruisers, they are very tanky, trollish armour.

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4 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Welllll, I don't get too hot and bothered about the IFHE on CLs.  Sure, it might be nice if they had IHFE baked into their guns/shells.  But I do have expect CL's to either need IFHE or have it baked in, since as CLs they have smaller guns than CAs. Their gun range is painfully low, and IIRC their arcs aren't particularly high, so they have to work on finding islands they can lob shells over a little harder than, say, USN CLs.

As for their AP, I just don't know.  I think that I've heard different stories about their AP.  I think that I've heard some say that their AP is good, but I think that I've also heard some claim that their AP stinks.  So I don't know what to think about RM CL AP.  

I honestly think that the reason they aren't heavy hitters...is because they can't rely on HE like most other cruiser do with that caliber.

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1 minute ago, LoveBote said:

I play both in the open water, using their manouvrability to dodge incoming. If you play them liek USN CLs, I think you will not have very good results. They are not island campers. Can't speak for the AP, never bother using it, I go for a full IFHE +flamethrower build. A better comparison than ther USN CLs, would be the IJN CAs, for playstyle. Despite the denomination as CL, as long as you don't go broadside to enemy battleships or AP slinging cruisers, they are very tanky, trollish armour.

LB, I'm more than capable of playing cruisers with a hit and run style, and I'm pretty decent at it.  I rarely get dev striked.  However, the problem is that one's ability to avoid taking major damage depends on how well you can maneuver to avoid incoming fire.  And that depends almost entirely on having the time for your maneuvers to get your ship away from where you think the enemy will be aiming.  And THAT requires time.  And time comes from distance.  The closer to the enemy you are, the less time you have to dodge incoming fire.

As for playing RM CLs like USN CLs, there's no reason you can't try.  But one's ability to play that way is entirely related to a ship's ability to get its shells over islands, which tends to require lower velocity, high trajectory guns.  Otherwise, you need to be further back from those islands.  Regardless, I've had some success doing this with the Duca D'Osta.   But I really wasn't so much hard camping behind islands (though I would have, if the opportunity was there), as much as moving from island to island, constantly seeking the next island I could use to mask my presence while I was lobbing shells at the enemy.  I realize that that may be splitting semantic hairs.  But I wasn't hard camping with the campfire and s'mores as much as I was hunting and trailing the enemy from cover.

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Italian ships are fine:

 

- GC: is a borderline OP BB;

- Roma: yes the guns can be frustrating at times, but its still great ship overall, amazing armor and concealment.

- Duca dAosta, good CL, but its more a DD hunter/support than a damage farmer.

- Abruzzi, a versatile support cruiser, pretty good overall, altough it could use a buff to the AP shells.

- Leone, too early to start crying about a ship that it wasnt even tested yet. 

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24 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

they are doing fine,for exp pinatas.

^This... for now.

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Italian premium cruisers are higher skilled ships. These aren't vessels that are OP and can tank/deal damage easily.

They can be extremely good, but being a light cruisers they require more patience, map awareness and general game play.

Reviews stated that before these were released, but I find that they are very strong, regardless of the of what the average says, and I wont even bring in my stats to it.

 

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9 minutes ago, _greifer said:

Italian premium cruisers are higher skilled ships. These aren't vessels that are OP and can tank/deal damage easily.

They can be extremely good, but being a light cruisers they require more patience, map awareness and general game play.

Reviews stated that before these were released, but I find that they are very strong, regardless of the of what the average says, and I wont even bring in my stats to it.

 

that must be why i hardly saw one at ranked tier6 and 7.i think ranked tier7 was released before the abruzzi but...

for ships that require high skill to perform well,while you can do BETTER with ships with less "skill" required. the outcome is what you bring to the table.

7cesare is the complete antithesis,she is more like a roman trireme than a italian ship,so she don't get lumped with the 2 cruisers and roma.

Edited by Cruxdei

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