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Chimera2

Jean Bart battle carrier conversion.

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So with the Jean Bart recently released into wows, here is a look at what Jean Bart could have been.

image.thumb.png.d3be9e9d31ca48867297197b1dbc8111.png

image.thumb.png.1c624602f5376c07483a95f92a4ca32b.png

image.thumb.png.40467624cfb2eea5f7e035a5c9a8d6b3.png

After the US navy (with whom the French Navy was attached to at the time) redlighted a full carrier conversion(there were enough of the Essex-class in the pipes and it was felt removing the battleships guns would be wasteful), the French came up with this aircraft carrier hybrid. Unlike other CV/BB hybrids this Jean Bart concept did not suffer and loss of the battleship's primary armament, thanks to the Richelieu class's all forward facing armament scheme. Also, unlike other hybrid designs, this had a very specific role in mind.  She would have been intended to serve an escort vessel, namely to protect other battleship's and carrier's. The USN liked the idea on principle, but ultimately decided to do nothing with Jean Bart given that it would have been difficult to to build to French standards. Ultimately Jean Bart was finished as a command battleship in France after the war.

Edited by Chimera2
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8 minutes ago, Chimera2 said:

So with the Jean Bart recently released into wows, here is a look at what Jean Bart could have been.

image.thumb.png.d3be9e9d31ca48867297197b1dbc8111.png

image.thumb.png.1c624602f5376c07483a95f92a4ca32b.png

image.thumb.png.40467624cfb2eea5f7e035a5c9a8d6b3.png

After the US navy (with whom the French Navy was attached to at the time) redlighted a full carrier conversion(there were enough of the Essex-class in the pipes and it was felt removing the battleships guns would be wasteful), the French came up with this aircraft carrier hybrid. Unlike other CV/BB hybrids this Jean Bart concept did not suffer and loss of the battleship's primary armament, thanks to the Richelieu class's all forward facing armament scheme. Also, unlike other hybrid designs, this had a very specific role in mind.  She would have been intended to serve an escort vessel, namely to protect other battleship's and carrier's. The USN liked the idea on principle, but ultimately decided to do nothing with Jean Bart given that it would have been difficult to to build to French standards. Ultimately Jean Bart was finished as a command battleship in France after the war.

Isn't that a little backwards?  The French proposal of 1940 shortly before the Fall of France to finish her as a hybrid battleship and aircraft carrier capital ship to provide not only fire support for the Marine Nationale but aircraft projection or aerial fleet defence. Proposal would be feasible  as the aft part of the ship is still not complete, though there would be stability issues to be solved having large weight on the front and the tall superstructure on the right side. Armament would consist of the French 100mm Modéle 1933 AA guns in twin turrets and 40mm Bofors with 20mm Oerlikon as light AA defence.

88My3kX.png

 

USN proposal from 1945, was the full conversion of the partially completed hull to a fleet carrier. Heavy AA fire would have been provided by the 5inch (127mm) Mark 12 AA guns, while light AA are from the 40mm Bofors and 20mm Oerlikon Machine guns. Air complement is not known apart from USNAF planes, but the size would allow a decent air group of around 50-60 planes.

30nadXj.png

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13 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Isn't that a little backwards?  The French proposal of 1940 shortly before the Fall of France to finish her as a hybrid battleship and aircraft carrier capital ship to provide not only fire support for the Marine Nationale but aircraft projection or aerial fleet defence. Proposal would be feasible  as the aft part of the ship is still not complete, though there would be stability issues to be solved having large weight on the front and the tall superstructure on the right side. Armament would consist of the French 100mm Modéle 1933 AA guns in twin turrets and 40mm Bofors with 20mm Oerlikon as light AA defence.

88My3kX.png

 

USN proposal from 1945, was the full conversion of the partially completed hull to a fleet carrier. Heavy AA fire would have been provided by the 5inch (127mm) Mark 12 AA guns, while light AA are from the 40mm Bofors and 20mm Oerlikon Machine guns. Air complement is not known apart from USNAF planes, but the size would allow a decent air group of around 50-60 planes.

30nadXj.png

could be, i got my information off of Wikipedia.

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Now I can't help but wonder how such a conversion would fare in Indochina and if the ability to bombard as well as use aircraft would have some influence on the outcome of the war.

Edited by warheart1992

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

Now I can't help but wonder how such a conversion would fare in Indochina and if the ability to bombard as well as use aircraft would have some influence on the outcome of the war.

It would have been a fairly limited impact, if any. France was never going to hold the place after the mess that was WWII, the Viet Minh were simply too entrenched into the public consciousness, and independence from European overlords was a worldwide sentiment.

Even if it did yield something utterly outlandish like a 'victory' in the Indochinese war, you'd have gotten something like Algeria, where although the main uprisings were suppressed, guerilla warfare would have continued, and the frail 4th Republic might have toppled a few years early.

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2 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

Now I can't help but wonder how such a conversion would fare in Indochina and if the ability to bombard as well as use aircraft would have some influence on the outcome of the war.

The Vietminh would still have won. They beat the better-equipped French and the USA in the end by paying the price in blood, something they were quite prepared to do. Many tactical defeats can add up to a geopolitical strategic victory. It took them another 21 years after 1954 to get all of Vietnam unified but they won in the end through sheer persistance. Tough way to do it.

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1 hour ago, HP_Lovesauce said:

It would have been a fairly limited impact, if any. France was never going to hold the place after the mess that was WWII, the Viet Minh were simply too entrenched into the public consciousness, and independence from European overlords was a worldwide sentiment.

Even if it did yield something utterly outlandish like a 'victory' in the Indochinese war, you'd have gotten something like Algeria, where although the main uprisings were suppressed, guerilla warfare would have continued, and the frail 4th Republic might have toppled a few years early.

 

7 minutes ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

The Vietminh would still have won. They beat the better-equipped French and the USA in the end by paying the price in blood, something they were quite prepared to do. Many tactical defeats can add up to a geopolitical strategic victory. It took them another 21 years after 1954 to get all of Vietnam unified but they won in the end through sheer persistance. Tough way to do it.

Agreed, I don't think It would have any huge impact on the grand scale. That said, It would be interesting to see if such a design had a bit of success whether it would influence carrier design, at least for a time.

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4 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

Now I can't help but wonder how such a conversion would fare in Indochina and if the ability to bombard as well as use aircraft would have some influence on the outcome of the war.

The key for maintaining an Empire is assimilation and the French and later Americans did a piss poor job at assimilating the Vietnamese.  The Indochina Wars weren't decided by a lack of firepower.  Algeria was right next door to France and Charles de Gaulle still gave them up.

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9 minutes ago, Sventex said:

The key for maintaining an Empire is assimilation and the French and later Americans did a piss poor job at assimilating the Vietnamese.  The Indochina Wars weren't decided by a lack of firepower.  Algeria was right next door to France and Charles de Gaulle still gave them up.

America is bad at assimilation? Somebody should tell all those Vietnamese that fled in a boat fleet to escape the communist government to get to the United States after the end of the war.

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6 minutes ago, TornadoADV said:

America is bad at assimilation? Somebody should tell all those Vietnamese that fled in a boat fleet to escape the communist government to get to the United States after the end of the war.

That the sum total of America's success at it.  During the Tet Offensive, the South Vietnamese were more afraid of the Communists then the Americans.  But the South Vietnamese were not eager to become American or French citizens given the way they were treated by them.  In the end, it was just a matter of the Communists being worse.  So I guess in the end the US got halfway there with assimilation, but given it took 20 years to achieve that, I still call that a poor job.  And the French had been there for 67 years.  It's not like California, that was eager to become a State of the Union despite being detached from the United States and being on the other side of the continent.  Or Canada which was eager to fight with the British Empire in the World Wars.  South Vietnam and America was not a relationship to aspire to.

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Please remove this thread I do not want WG to now pull this ship and give it the Tone treatment. 

 

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