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asmodai22

WG going do something about HE cheese?

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I spend 3/4 of my time running or dodging HE rounds terrified of one hits my BB ship. Then I get hit by ONE and burns through my ship like butter. I use repair and have to wait 2 effing minutes while they sit behind rocks or cover just shooting more HE rounds. Shortly after I use repair while having 3 fires going on and get hit by another one. I always hear the excuse "We have light armor and get hit by one AP round we're done", ok that's great when you can sit behind cover 98% of the time.

What is worse then they all gang up on you lobbing HE rounds like gang [edited] knowing you used your repair when you had no choice. Hell, when you know HE are complete cheese and needing to be nerfed is when people use memes of BB's greatest fear showing a box of matches. It wouldn't be so bad if the repair was a minute but 2 minutes?! and all it takes is ONE to light you up like a Xmas tree.  There is my rant for tonight.

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32 minutes ago, asmodai22 said:

I spend 3/4 of my time running or dodging HE rounds terrified of one hits my BB ship. Then I get hit by ONE and burns through my ship like butter. I use repair and have to wait 2 effing minutes while they sit behind rocks or cover just shooting more HE rounds. Shortly after I use repair while having 3 fires going on and get hit by another one. I always hear the excuse "We have light armor and get hit by one AP round we're done", ok that's great when you can sit behind cover 98% of the time.

What is worse then they all gang up on you lobbing HE rounds like gang [edited] knowing you used your repair when you had no choice. Hell, when you know HE are complete cheese and needing to be nerfed is when people use memes of BB's greatest fear showing a box of matches. It wouldn't be so bad if the repair was a minute but 2 minutes?! and all it takes is ONE to light you up like a Xmas tree.  There is my rant for tonight.

I feel you.  It is very, VERY, VVEERRYY frustrating when this happens.  It is a terrible hopeless, helpless feeling.  Trying to get out of there as quickly as you're big hip, a blind man could it, battleship while 1 to 10 people all lob HE shells at you.  Then some don't even bother to hide cause they know you can't shoot at everyone and your guns are pointed the wrong way.  You just sit there and burn and watch your health melt away to nothing and there is nothing you can do to stop it.  It is slow and agonizing.

Then again, everything about BBs is slow and agonizing.  They go slow, they turn slow, they stop slow, they re-load slow, they salvo slow, they do everything slowly!  They even die slow, even when this is happening.  And you just have to sit there and take it.

DDs do everything fast.  They go fast, they turn fast, they stop fast, they re-load fast, they shoot fast, they even die fast!  Not sitting around and slowly burning or flooding your way to death over minutes for them.

The only thing I can say is that it will happen from time to time, you will get trapped just like you describe, no matter what you do.  All you can do is keep good situational awareness, don't overextend yourself, and let experience teach you when you should and shouldn't push.  I just finished grinding the USN BB line and getting the Unique/Legendary Upgrade for the Montana and it still happens to me as well.  Not as often mind you, but it still does happen.  When it does happen, I try to console myself with the memories of cruisers and destroyers I have deleted.

 

EDIT- lmbo what are the 'Bad' votes for?  I can't be sympathetic/commiserate? :fish_nerv:

Edited by Gunga_Dinner
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In a word, no.

 

See, my dude, I play BB's, too, and I just don't have the problems some of the base whines about, and I don't even use FP on my most played BB's.

 

Awareness, positioning, knowing when to get the heck out, these things keep you from eating torps and being burned down. It's really that simple.

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Just a few things :

-If they are sitting behind an island, they can't spot by themselve meaning someone else is spotting for them, either aircraft or DD. They are properly using game mecanics that every cruiser should do. If you're not happy about that, then kill that DD or aircraft or play something else. Not all ship have the ability to rush like an idiot and get away with low HP.

 

-If you used your damage control, it should be obvious that any player with some intelligence will wait 20 sec and shoot at you again. If you were in a position where a CA managed to forces your damage con while underfire it means you over extended. Learn to read a map then.

 

-Fire is 100% repairable unlike citadel damage.

 

BB is by far the easiest type of ship to play if you have a good build and good position

 

shot-18.10.01_18.11.41-0499.jpg

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When it gets especially frustrating, I get in my Akizuki or Hotlanta and do it to someone else!  Misery does love company.

:etc_swear:

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21 minutes ago, asmodai22 said:

I spend 3/4 of my time running or dodging HE rounds terrified of one hits my BB ship. Then I get hit by ONE and burns through my ship like butter. I use repair and have to wait 2 effing minutes while they sit behind rocks or cover just shooting more HE rounds. Shortly after I use repair while having 3 fires going on and get hit by another one. I always hear the excuse "We have light armor and get hit by one AP round we're done", ok that's great when you can sit behind cover 98% of the time.

What is worse then they all gang up on you lobbing HE rounds like gang [edited] knowing you used your repair when you had no choice. Hell, when you know HE are complete cheese and needing to be nerfed is when people use memes of BB's greatest fear showing a box of matches. It wouldn't be so bad if the repair was a minute but 2 minutes?! and all it takes is ONE to light you up like a Xmas tree.  There is my rant for tonight.

Two modules to reduce ce fire chance and duration, signal flags to reduce fire duration, captain skills to reduce fire chance, fire duration and even the number of active fires to 3 max, plus captain skills and flags to reduce cool down on damage control, which also reduces heal timer, signal flags to make heal more effective, and premium consumables incl DCP and repair party.

There is a lot you can do if you don’t like fires. You could also take more active measures, like 1 shot the enemy ships, or use positioning or teamwork as well. 

So, what is the problem?

Edited by UltimateNewbie
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49 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

Two modules to reduce ce fire chance and duration, signal flags to reduce fire duration, captain skills to reduce fire chance, fire duration and even the number of active fires to 3 max, plus captain skills and flags to reduce cool down on damage control, which also reduces heal timer, signal flags to make heal more effective, and premium consumables incl DCP and repair party.

There is a lot you can do if you don’t like fires. You could also take more active measures, like 1 shot the enemy ships, or use positioning or teamwork as well. 

So, what is the problem?

I'm reminded of why I like you so much. :D

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2 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Awareness, positioning, knowing when to get the heck out, these things keep you from eating torps and being burned down. It's really that simple.

Easier to say then to be able to do and not even in the sense of just learning. 

Hard to take up position behind a rock or out of spam range when 10 of 12 ships are sitting as far away from where they need to as they can. When no one moves but the red team to take objectives, to try and win, any of it. Go to get the heck out still have 4 ships spamming auto pen salvo's that can start fires that eat 10.4-18% of your HP away. When as a BB you can heal 14-16.8 every 80+ seconds with only half of the pen damage fixable. When your ship is a 21 knot brick against 30+ knot dragons with maximum agility. I've fought other cruisers and won without never changing rounds even thought they had more health and used AP, I've reduced BB's to smoke and ash, torn apart DD's and had the same done to me. One of the few ships I have no issue on usually is Musashi - cause it actually has deck areas  they can't auto pen. And that's the issue. 

 

DD's and Cruisers people forget had a similar if not the same burn time and damage as BB's when these changes with IFHE coming out first happened - but then they were lowered. "Well, they don't get a heal" - they said - yeah well, now more and more do get a heal, namely cruisers. "BB's throw out huge Alpha salvo's at long range" - if we can see the target and RNG is on our side sure. Accuracy typically is traded for that damage. But people also forget that that "high damage" Applies to 2 1/2 ship types - Primarily cruisers and other BB's, and on those rare times they are in gun range at the right angle CV's. Other BB's can be difficult to citadel, usually it's the cruisers, who are smaller, more agile and generally faster, targets. Because that super heavy damage applies to hitting a very specific part of the ship. Sure, citadel hits a NC throws out a max 117900 damage per salvo. Take that away, the average normal pens, 38907. Cleveland, with just spamming HE is 34848 without fires in 30 seconds. Akizuki can knock out 31680 damage in that same 30 seconds. 

Except the AP can be bounced, even by a Cleveland. The AP can overpen these ships for 1310 damage - something Wargaming wants to make a guarantee on DD's. 0 damage pens. And these BB's can straight up miss due to RNG. The ships spamming HE are usually well more accurate then the BB's. And when the HE shell hits there is no overpen, no bounce, you pen or you don't - and with IFHE and most BB's having the ship covered in 32 mm or less armour it usually is a pen, so it's consistent guaranteed damage. And on top of that, it better knocks modules out and even if it his for no damage cause of saturation, a AA gun, a spot with too much armour - it can still start a fire for damage. Even the armour is a double edged sword because while I covered the vs IFHE bit already, it also means AP can more reliably full pen a ship, where as lower armour AP can sail right through the ship. 

 

Strip away the fires that are straight up RNG, strip away the citadel hits that require some RNG and are the same kinda bonus as fire damage, or more accurately, the same as the headshot multiplier in most FPS games typically for a sniper rifle, though the other two can benefit from it as well. Which, I might add, while they sometimes have issues citadeling cruisers - DD's and cruisers when using AP, just like a BB, actually deal as much damage, if not more in 30 seconds as that 1 salvo does. But the DPM's are not that greatly separated between the 3, and there HE has fewer issues and is being fired from a faster firing more accurate platform. 

 

Meta as is can't be sustained. Play is just going to keep getting more passive -- the opposite of what Wargaming wants - and something needs to change in the mechanics or something. Maybe we need to up at least mid section armour plating, maybe we need to add a chance that a really bad angle can bounce the round, maybe we need to go back to a pre IFHE setup without the skill where you need to hit superstructure or weak areas. I don't know. But fires was always a touchy issue. Because you'd get guys constantly getting set on fire if a red ship looked at them funny while you'd have guys complain that after 300 shell hits they started 1 fire. It was all RNG beyond hitting, and it went both ways, why to some degree, frustrating as it was, it was tolerated. Because HE wasn't doing and real damage usually, it was the fires. Cruisers and DD's weren't constantly stripping away 1,2,3k or more per hit every few seconds when fires were balanced. And the pen and fires combined is an issue. 

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56 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

Two modules to reduce ce fire chance and duration, signal flags to reduce fire duration, captain skills to reduce fire chance, fire duration and even the number of active fires to 3 max, plus captain skills and flags to reduce cool down on damage control, which also reduces heal timer, signal flags to make heal more effective, and premium consumables incl DCP and repair party.

There is a lot you can do if you don’t like fires. You could also take more active measures, like 1 shot the enemy ships, or use positioning or teamwork as well. 

So, what is the problem?

even with a full anti fire build, fire still take out tens of thousands of HP from battleships, and it's a problem that disproportionately affects BB players, because fire is % based it deals massive damage because our health pool are large

 

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You'll learn to shoot cruisers out of cover eventually. It's not your job to sit there and tank HE all day as a BB. Any changes to reduce the power of HE and fires will lead to very boring very static gameplay. You already see many trying this and thankfully failing then going on the forums complaining that they are actually getting damaged by smaller ships. These players clearly have never felt the power of a Yamato salvo.

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1 hour ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Just a few things :

-If they are sitting behind an island, they can't spot by themselve meaning someone else is spotting for them, either aircraft or DD. They are properly using game mecanics that every cruiser should do. If you're not happy about that, then kill that DD or aircraft or play something else. Not all ship have the ability to rush like an idiot and get away with low HP.

 

-If you used your damage control, it should be obvious that any player with some intelligence will wait 20 sec and shoot at you again. If you were in a position where a CA managed to forces your damage con while underfire it means you over extended. Learn to read a map then.

 

-Fire is 100% repairable unlike citadel damage.

 

BB is by far the easiest type of ship to play if you have a good build and good position

 

shot-18.10.01_18.11.41-0499.jpg

1. Then why do people keep [edited] at the BB captains who snipe from a distance? They're clearly taking advantage of the game mechanics to keep themselves in an advantageous position.

2. Sure, fire  management is certainly a good skill to have as a player, but no amount of management is going to save your ship when you have cruisers pelt you with HE constantly while you attempt to push a cap.

3. Ease of play is a very subjective thing. I can easily say that playing BBs is very difficult, on account of how BBs are so slow that one must plan far ahead in advance to make sure that you don't paint yourself into a tactical corner. I for one feel that cruisers are very easy to play, with how they have so many tools in their kits to basically do everything.

3 minutes ago, NeoRussia said:

You'll learn to shoot cruisers out of cover eventually. It's not your job to sit there and tank HE all day as a BB. Any changes to reduce the power of HE and fires will lead to very boring very static gameplay. You already see many trying this and thankfully failing then going on the forums complaining that they are actually getting damaged by smaller ships. These players clearly have never felt the power of a Yamato salvo.

If HE becomes of limited use, people will become forced to maneuver to gain the flanks of the enemy.

Edited by sulghunter331
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1 minute ago, Atom_Alchemist said:

even with a full anti fire build, fire still take out tens of thousands of HP from battleships, and it's a problem that disproportionately affects BB players, because fire is % based it deals massive damage because our health pool are large

 

How is it a problem again?

Unless you want to allow cruisers to be able to citadel battleships with AP just as easily as BBs cit cruisers, then HE and fires are the only way for cruisers to practically damage battleships.

Taking that away will negatively affect game balance. 

WG has given you the tools to mitigate fire damage. Use them knowing that WG hasn’t given cruisers the same array of tools to mitigate dev strikes by AP. 

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4 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

How is it a problem again?

Unless you want to allow cruisers to be able to citadel battleships with AP just as easily as BBs cit cruisers, then HE and fires are the only way for cruisers to practically damage battleships.

Taking that away will negatively affect game balance. 

WG has given you the tools to mitigate fire damage. Use them knowing that WG hasn’t given cruisers the same array of tools to mitigate dev strikes by AP. 

yes why is it that the LARGEST slowest target in the game, spot table from tens of km away, can be killed by 6 [edited]HE SHELLS from a DESTROYER a problem.

 

 

Also you know how a [edited]cruiser can mitagrate a dev strike to their citadel from a battleship?

 

[edited]ANGLING..OR YOU KNOW WASD HACKS...OR CONCEALMENT...SMOKE..ETC ETC ETC.. WHAT CAN A [edited]BATTLESHIP CAPTAIN DO AGAIST FIRE? OH WHEN THERE ARE TWO FIRE SURE HE CAN DC, oh sure once the fires are out he can use health regen and get back ~20% of his lossed life..meanwhile two more fires will take out 60% of the battleships [edited]health.

 

the only people who don't understand that HE is [edited]broken right now, are the people not paying [edited]attention.

 

here about a math lesson for the HE defenders among us.

 

A SINGLE fire, with maximum anti fire measures will deal 10% of a battleships hp in damage over 35 seconds.

 

a t10 battleship has between 90k and 100k health, so thats 10,000 damage from a SINGLE fire with MAXIMUM anti fire skills/flags.. that is 10k damage regardless of angling, regardless of the shells shattering, regardless of if the fire was started by a 105mm gun from a t2 destroyer, or a regardless of ANYTHING the battleship player can do, a fire is entirely up to RNG and yes, even a 105 mm t2 ijn dd gun can set a t10 yamato on fire.

 

that means a single fire is equivalent to a "decent" AP volley from a battleship on another BB. a good flamerthrower should be getting more then 10 fires in a game, EASILY, 10 fires is 100k damage against a battleship. THIS IS A [edited]PROBLEM.

 

If they make it so shatter HE shells don't set ship on fire that would help, if they change fire damage from % base to a static damage per tick, THAT would help, there are plenty of [edited]ways to solve the HE spam problem AND YES IT IS A [edited]PROBLEM.

 

 

 

Edited by Atom_Alchemist
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1 hour ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Awareness, positioning, knowing when to get the heck out, these things keep you from eating torps and being burned down. It's really that simple.

QFT. Once I figured this out, the topic became much easier to deal with. 

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11 minutes ago, Atom_Alchemist said:

yes why is it that the LARGEST slowest target in the game, spot table from tens of km away, can be killed by 6 [edited]HE SHELLS from a DESTROYER a problem.

 

Well, a DD should just torp you - it’s more brutal. 

But exaggeration aside, I get that HE and fires are aggravating. I play battleships too, and when you see that pissweak single HE shell slowly float down at its max range and just barely manage to clip your stern, you know 100% it’s going to trigger a raging inferno. 

I get it. 

But let us consider the alternatives...

If you reduce fire chance or fire duration, then cruiser and dd performance against battleships is reduced compared to the status quo. This would result in even more battleships being played, and less variety. Do the stats justify such a broad based boost to battleships? Present your case. 

If you reduce fire chance or duration but sought to keep the balance the same, then other choices include increasing direct damage of HE (noting that damage over time is 100 healable, gives you more time to use DCP, heals or get more shots off so direct damage is always superior) adding more hitpoints to battleship superstructure to take more damage from low calibre guns, increasing cruiser AP effectiveness against battleships prolly to ahistoric levels, or reducing overall BB hitpoints. Each of those changes then have knock on balance implications for BB vs BB, cruiser vs cruiser, etc etc. If that’s what you want, then again, make your case. 

Edited by UltimateNewbie
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32 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

I'm reminded of why I like you so much. :D

Hi! Hope you’ve been well. We should div next time we’re both on!

Edited by UltimateNewbie

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6 minutes ago, Octavian_of_Roma said:

QFT. Once I figured this out, the topic became much easier to deal with. 

[edited], angling, and position doesn't help a battleship against fire damage, it merely prevent them from getting focus fired by a entire enemy team, and remmeber when a battleship "try to get out" they are teh slowest ships in the GAME they can't outrun ANYTHING other then enemy battleships. The DD or cruiser lobbing 50 HE shells a minute can easily keep that bb at max range AND reliably score hits. Theirs a reason why the HIGHEST damage dealers in game are [edited]fireships, it's because fire is broekm, but you guys don't want to admit it.

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1 hour ago, asmodai22 said:

I spend 3/4 of my time running or dodging HE rounds terrified of one hits my BB ship. Then I get hit by ONE and burns through my ship like butter. I use repair and have to wait 2 effing minutes while they sit behind rocks or cover just shooting more HE rounds. Shortly after I use repair while having 3 fires going on and get hit by another one. I always hear the excuse "We have light armor and get hit by one AP round we're done", ok that's great when you can sit behind cover 98% of the time.

What is worse then they all gang up on you lobbing HE rounds like gang [edited] knowing you used your repair when you had no choice. Hell, when you know HE are complete cheese and needing to be nerfed is when people use memes of BB's greatest fear showing a box of matches. It wouldn't be so bad if the repair was a minute but 2 minutes?! and all it takes is ONE to light you up like a Xmas tree.  There is my rant for tonight.

HE is working as designed. It is one of the mechanics to balance the game. It you think BB's have it bad, drive a cruiser.  Use your consumable to put out the fires and then a DD hits you with one shot and you're burning again. With BB's you have the ability to recover fire damage and you can learn to mitigate a lot of the fire damage.

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LOL someone gets into a spot where he is attacked by multiple ships at the same time, and believes he should be able to walk away from that intact :Smile_veryhappy:

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Just now, kgh52 said:

HE is working as designed. It is one of the mechanics to balance the game. It you think BB's have it bad, drive a cruiser.  Use your consumable to put out the fires and then a DD hits you with one shot and you're burning again. With BB's you have the ability to recover fire damage and you can learn to mitigate a lot of the fire damage.

Fun fact, a single fire only deals 7% of a cruiser total HP to them if fitted for maximum anti fire this means the range of somewhere like 3-4k damage, that same fire will deal 10% of a battleship health also, cruisers have a much faster coold down on their damage control. oh, and cruisers are more nimble and smaller then battleships so are harder to hit. OH AND late tier cruisers get [edited]heal.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

LOL someone gets into a spot where he is attacked by multiple ships at the same time, and believes he should be able to walk away from that intact :Smile_veryhappy:

oh they got attacked by a SINGLE flame throwing ship ala flint/atlanta/the usn light cruiser branch, and it became impossible to disengage SINCE BATTLESHIPS ARE THE BIGGEST, SLOWEST, LEAST AGILE SHIPS IN THE [edited]GAME. 

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3 minutes ago, Atom_Alchemist said:

[edited], angling, and position doesn't help a battleship against fire damage, it merely prevent them from getting focus fired by a entire enemy team, and remmeber when a battleship "try to get out" they are teh slowest ships in the GAME they can't outrun ANYTHING other then enemy battleships. The DD or cruiser lobbing 50 HE shells a minute can easily keep that bb at max range AND reliably score hits. Theirs a reason why the HIGHEST damage dealers in game are [edited]fireships, it's because fire is broekm, but you guys don't want to admit it.

No one said anything about angling. 

The rest of what you said doesnt make much sense to me. As you said BBs are the slowest ships in the game, so positioning helps tremendously. 

This was an issue I had when I first started playing, but it's rarely an issue now. Sure sometimes I end up somewhere bad and I get rained on, but that's relatively rare now.

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Seriously, how the [edited] can people be arguing about this.

 

1. FACT

Battleships are the slowest, least agile, largest ships in the game.

 

2. FACT

Fire damage disproportionately affects battleships more then any other ship class due to having the longest cool down of DC and the largest health pool for % based damage

 

3. FACT

HE shells do not need to pen a ship armor to set fire, there zero difference between a shells fire chance and whether that shell pens the armor, it will set fire even on a shatter.

 

As it stands, fire damage against battleships is broken. It's fairly obvious war gaming is aware of this. Sticking your head in the dirt and saying it's not a problem won't make it so.

 

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30 minutes ago, Atom_Alchemist said:

yes why is it that the LARGEST slowest target in the game, spot table from tens of km away, can be killed by 6 [edited]HE SHELLS from a DESTROYER a problem.

 

 

Also you know how a [edited]cruiser can mitagrate a dev strike to their citadel from a battleship?

 

[edited]ANGLING..OR YOU KNOW WASD HACKS...OR CONCEALMENT...SMOKE..ETC ETC ETC.. WHAT CAN A [edited]BATTLESHIP CAPTAIN DO AGAIST FIRE? OH WHEN THERE ARE TWO FIRE SURE HE CAN DC, oh sure once the fires are out he can use health regen and get back ~20% of his lossed life..meanwhile two more fires will take out 60% of the battleships [edited]health.

 

the only people who don't understand that HE is [edited]broken right now, are the people not paying [edited]attention.

 

here about a math lesson for the HE defenders among us.

 

A SINGLE fire, with maximum anti fire measures will deal 10% of a battleships hp in damage over 35 seconds.

 

a t10 battleship has between 90k and 100k health, so thats 10,000 damage from a SINGLE fire with MAXIMUM anti fire skills/flags.. that is 10k damage regardless of angling, regardless of the shells shattering, regardless of if the fire was started by a 105mm gun from a t2 destroyer, or a regardless of ANYTHING the battleship player can do, a fire is entirely up to RNG and yes, even a 105 mm t2 ijn dd gun can set a t10 yamato on fire.

 

that means a single fire is equivalent to a "decent" AP volley from a battleship on another BB. a good flamerthrower should be getting more then 10 fires in a game, EASILY, 10 fires is 100k damage against a battleship. THIS IS A [edited]PROBLEM.

 

If they make it so shatter HE shells don't set ship on fire that would help, if they change fire damage from % base to a static damage per tick, THAT would help, there are plenty of [edited]ways to solve the HE spam problem AND YES IT IS A [edited]PROBLEM.

 

 

 

T2 DDs won’t see T10s in normal battle, and the base fire resistance on a T10 is very high, so actually lighting them will take a while. Feel free to try it in a training room. 

There are two key differences between a fire doing 10k damage and getting hit by a BB for 10k damage:

1) fire is 100% healable - other damage, but particularly citadel damage, is not. So, getting hit by a bb hurts more. 

2) that fire takes 35 seconds - as you say - to do the damage, not essentially immediately like a battleship strike. That gives you time to get into cover, get more shots off, heal up, spot enemy ships for friendlies, cap, or a whole range of things. 

Thus, you should WANT to take all your damage as fire damage. 

 

You still haven’t outlined why BBs need buffs or how you would restore balance. But it does seem that you are shouting and swearing a lot. 

  • Cool 1

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