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BlailBlerg

Which BBs can efficiently use a secondary build to comparable win rate and results to zombie build?

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This is a different question than "does this ship have enough secondaries to be worth trying this as an alternate build" and "is it fun"? 

I find that GK is very difficult to keep alive without fire prevention, so the zombie build seems to be more efficient. 

Gneisenau and Scharn are seen from 15.2 km without CE, and its hard to get into close range due to that. I've been trying AFT on Gneisenau + 2ndary mod, and been very disappointed. 

I've had good success with Tirpitz and Bismarck. Mobile enough to dodge torpedoes and not so large to always be on fire. 

It seems Massachusetts is most effective with full secondaries? 

What about Bayern and Konig?

Also what about Guilio Cesare? I think I've seen people use AFT but likely into an AA build in Ranked. 

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Everything will change soon with the new patch that is eliminating AP secondaries. Many BBs are going to get nastier as brawlers -- Nagato and Kii and Guilio, I expect. 

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Personally I believe Bayern with the 150mms will become quite strong for a secondary build. You don't need IFHE thanks to the HE penetration rule, so you can also snatch another 4 point skill.

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18 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Everything will change soon with the new patch that is eliminating AP secondaries. Many BBs are going to get nastier as brawlers -- Nagato and Kii and Guilio, I expect. 

Almost no ship has AP secondaries.  The Yamato is the only one I know that does. (and the Musashi)

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20 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Everything will change soon with the new patch that is eliminating AP secondaries. Many BBs are going to get nastier as brawlers -- Nagato and Kii and Guilio, I expect. 

Nagato will be a nasty 2ndary build. I might revert back to 10 point survival build + BFT+AFT+AR.

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15 minutes ago, Valdez_Raptor said:

Almost no ship has AP secondaries.  The Yamato is the only one I know that does. (and the Musashi)

Most IJN BBs and some German BBs have AP secondaries.

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6 minutes ago, Valdez_Raptor said:

Is this change a good or bad thing?

It's a buff, flat out. Secondaries, even with manual control, don't have the accuracy or penetration to consistantly damage ships with AP. HE, on the other hand, can still set fires with shatters, can damage systems more easily, and don't care about angles. HE is so much better for secondaries.

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56 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Everything will change soon with the new patch that is eliminating AP secondaries. Many BBs are going to get nastier as brawlers -- Nagato and Kii and Guilio, I expect. 

I said prior to and upon release that Musashi needed HE shells in it’s secondary  guns and not AP since it had powerful secondary guns, but far too few shells being fired by them to have AP be adequate. Now finally Musashi among others will have their HE Secondaries and be more useful.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1
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2 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

This is a different question than "does this ship have enough secondaries to be worth trying this as an alternate build" and "is it fun"? 

I find that GK is very difficult to keep alive without fire prevention, so the zombie build seems to be more efficient. 

Gneisenau and Scharn are seen from 15.2 km without CE, and its hard to get into close range due to that. I've been trying AFT on Gneisenau + 2ndary mod, and been very disappointed. 

I've had good success with Tirpitz and Bismarck. Mobile enough to dodge torpedoes and not so large to always be on fire. 

It seems Massachusetts is most effective with full secondaries? 

What about Bayern and Konig?

Also what about Guilio Cesare? I think I've seen people use AFT but likely into an AA build in Ranked. 

Try it on Montana. She has 5/54 secondaries instead of 5/38s. With 9.4 km secondaries build and the SM flag up, concealment module and CE 19-pt captain, she holds her own at that tier. Many DDs have learned this the hard way. I did not want to blow my monthly retirement check on Massachussetts as I have Alabama already so I gave it a try. Not going back to my old configuration. Sacrificed a bit on range but boy, she plays much better. The plus is to to be effective, you must close the range, so no hanging back map edge crawls with this configuration. Angled properly, with the speed and secondaries flags, you can close and score decently without tanking too much damage.

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Gonna be interesting to see IJN BBs if they have enough firepower to spec for them. 

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Currently Alsace is the strongest secondary ship if you can get around the armour scheme and needing IFHE, but it's worth it for the sheer firepower of the secondaries. Massachusetts is the quintessential secondary spec BB due to being the only BB with secondaries as its main defining gimmick. The German and French line both work especially with a hybrid AA/secondary build. The secondaries on high tier German BBs are the main trait keeping them competitive. Nelson is an outlier in the British nation since it has essentially 2 leanders strapped to each side as secondaries although this might be getting significantly nerfed with an upcoming change to making secondaries HE only. Montana is viable but difficult to use with secondaries, however since it cannot equip the dispersion mod 1 and benefits a lot from BFT and AFT, you might as well equip it with a hybrid secondary build. IJN BBs have a rather weak secondary armament overall. Even if they only fired HE the damage from them would be too minimal compared to German or high tier French BBs to be worth it. 

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As of now such a ship does not exist, and it is unlikely it will ever exist.

Think about it, if secondary builds can compete with concealment builds then this game would turn into a flash game where combat is just a left click.

If you build for secondaries you are purely doing it for fun, there is no "hoping to be effective" with secondary builds because it is not.

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7 minutes ago, DoIphin_Princess said:

As of now such a ship does not exist, and it is unlikely it will ever exist.

Think about it, if secondary builds can compete with concealment builds then this game would turn into a flash game where combat is just a left click.

If you build for secondaries you are purely doing it for fun, there is no "hoping to be effective" with secondary builds because it is not.

When people say this they assume secondary build means that they will rush into secondary range and try to score as many secondary battery hits as possible, and this is about as true as if you were to say that being concealment build means always staying undetected whenever possible. It's just not true. Secondary builds are entirely viable because they are a trade off of captain skills and modules. In actuality not that big of an investment. The lack of concealment expert and some survivability perks is easily made up by getting secondary damage. You're deciding whether you want to take 7-10k more damage (assuming the worst scenario of being constantly on fire all game while still having FP) and having to stay 2-3km further back if you want to make use of concealment on top of the loss of comfort from not having EM (or some damage from AR if you want to go that route)for a good chunk of damage gained from secondaries. Also you certainly can't ignore players with superunicum stats who play secondary skilled BBs, it's proof that they are being effective in them. 

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9 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

This is a different question than "does this ship have enough secondaries to be worth trying this as an alternate build" and "is it fun"? 

I find that GK is very difficult to keep alive without fire prevention, so the zombie build seems to be more efficient. 

Gneisenau and Scharn are seen from 15.2 km without CE, and its hard to get into close range due to that. I've been trying AFT on Gneisenau + 2ndary mod, and been very disappointed. 

I've had good success with Tirpitz and Bismarck. Mobile enough to dodge torpedoes and not so large to always be on fire. 

It seems Massachusetts is most effective with full secondaries? 

What about Bayern and Konig?

Also what about Guilio Cesare? I think I've seen people use AFT but likely into an AA build in Ranked. 

I run full secondaries with IFHE on the GK and the Massachusetts, I love playing them as such. Knowing where to position, when to push, and how to retreat while keeping someone in secondary range are must know things. Way I figure it if you want a tanky BB take the Yamato, if you want a stealthy 12 gun salute take the Montana, GK is a city sized bar fight that can brawl multiple ships at once. Mass so long as you don't run into a Yamato or a conqueror is a super tanky area denial platform not an aggressive brawler though it can be. Woe be to the DD that gets too close, IFHE doubles your secondary damage adding up to usually 1/4 of your entire damage in a game to raw secondary damage, 1/4 fire, 1/2 guns.

Bismark, Tirp, don't need IFHE thanks to 1/4 pen values and can't break any armor thresholds with it. I run manual secondaries and AFT.

Sharn doesn't have the 128mm's if I recall and wouldn't benefit from IFHE. Gneisenau would, haven't tried it yet but sounds too fun to pass up.

Amagi used to be a secondary brawler but those days have passed with the introduction of the KM. Most of its secondaries are AP anyway.

Alsace makes a great secondary platform but as an area denial / pursuit bote, not a brawler as compared to the ze Germans.

Repub as much as I want it to be a secondary ship is better as a min/max build with some AA thrown in.

Yamato is best as a stealthy tank, surprise im the bus that hit you. Its secondaries are anemic.

Montana makes a surprisingly good secondary area denial bote but you shouldn't go all out. My friend went AFT, MFS, concealment on his and likes that build a lot, I intend to follow suit.

Everything else, no not enough range at the lower tiers.


 

 

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Just not the Musashi. Everything is ok to try. Dont know how the HE on secondaries gona effect the brawler, but most tier got problem with brawling, to much meme gun ships to consider.

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I get annoyed when people say secondaries "aren't effective." You aren't using them right. We'll use Kurfurst for example.

Kurfurst is a floating fortress. You position just outside the reds primary push, blast anything attempting to flank with your main battery, and start fires on everything else.

You WANT to be shot at so Red reveals their positions. You can afford to trade some health for valuable information and take the heat off your DDs in the opening moments where so many die right away, just don't sit broadside like an idiot. You're a fire support platform for all the DDs on your team. This pressure doesn't just do valuable chip damage, it's psychological and it FORCES REPAIRS. Never underestimate the difference forcing damage controls can make, especially in high tier matches; perfectly timed use of dam con can win/lose games and this might be the most important thing. I can light fires and often the red ship cannot do it back mitigating their bow in "advantage."

You can build for survivability AND secondaries, no idea how people get it in their head it has to be one or the other. You take concealment so you can trade, reveal locations, draw fire away from your friendlies then kite away going dark if needed and just watch the slaughter as red realizes they got greedy trying to get you. 

Reposition, repeat.

I don't want to hear about my Kurfurst W/R either from the stat-checkers. My stats aren't great because it was my first T10 and I potato'd like crazy before I had a 19pt captain and learned how to use it.

Edited by HeathenForay

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It does take quite a while to get a 19-pt captain to be fair. I'm going with secondaries first on my almost 10-pt captain and then concealment. It may be less effective, but secondaries are oddly fun and add another way to control portions of the map.

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Secondary builds are very powerful assuming you don't potato into battle.  A proper secondary build is played just like a zombie build, only you're utilizing your secondaries to great effectiveness when you're engaging enemy warships in exchange for less fire damage and concealment.  It's always a trade-off, but secondaries can add an enormous amount of damage (~30-70k+) when played properly.  People who say secondary builds are useless just aren't playing them right (sorry, but it's true!).  One caveat though, they're probably not ideal for clan play.

What makes a secondary build effective -

  1. It must be able to supplement your main battery damage output in a meaningful way, meaning it needs to be useful in more than just knife fights.
  2. It must provide some kind of area of denial effect.

Ships I've been able to play very effectively using secondary builds:

  • Massachusetts - Duh.  Doesn't need IFHE like people say though
  • Montana - Extraordinarily powerful in a secondary role because it doesn't trade any main battery performance to skill it, and no one ever expects it.  Also doesn't need IFHE.  My average damage is still climbing, and I very often break 110k+ damage in games.  No turtleback, but very heavily armored.  Much superior firing angles to the Kurfurst.
  • Scharnhorst - Huge fun, does need IFHE though to really make it pop since it uses 105mm's.
  • Gneisenau - Also huge fun, but doesn't need IFHE due to it being uniform 128mm battery.
  • Grober Kurfurst - The party barge of brawling mayhem.  Can be played with or without IFHE and with a variety of module configurations.
  • Bismarck/Tirpitz - You will need IFHE to really get the most out of your secondaries, but perfectly viable.
  • Friedrich der Grober - Too much to say here.  Weak ship.  I did better though when I took ASM1 over SBM2, as the main battery performance was too weak at this tier to make a pure brawling build effective.
  • Warspite - Viable, but not armored like American or German warships; tread carefully.
  • Konig/Bayern - Like most lower tier warships, they lack the range and accuracy needed to really be effective.
  • Arkansas B - Seen through a stream, but not played.  Very viable secondary platform if you happen to have this ship.

I have not played any French or Japanese ships yet, so I can't comment.

Other things of note:

  • Only German 128mm and 150mm batteries use the 1/4 pen rule.  German 88mm and 105mm follow the 1/6 pen rule, and will need IFHE to properly penetrate superstructure armor.
  • The two "major" armor penetration thresholds for secondary builds is 19mm and 32mm. 
    • German 105mm and French 100mm mounts need IFHE to penetrate 19mm
    • German 128mm mounts can penetrate >32mm with IFHE
    • American and French 127mm mounts can penetrate superstructures without the need for IFHE.
  • >95% of your secondary damage is going to come from enemy battleships!  This is why the 19mm and 32mm thresholds are so important.

 

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14 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

This is a different question than "does this ship have enough secondaries to be worth trying this as an alternate build" and "is it fun"? 

I find that GK is very difficult to keep alive without fire prevention, so the zombie build seems to be more efficient. 

Gneisenau and Scharn are seen from 15.2 km without CE, and its hard to get into close range due to that. I've been trying AFT on Gneisenau + 2ndary mod, and been very disappointed. 

I've had good success with Tirpitz and Bismarck. Mobile enough to dodge torpedoes and not so large to always be on fire. 

It seems Massachusetts is most effective with full secondaries? 

What about Bayern and Konig?

Also what about Guilio Cesare? I think I've seen people use AFT but likely into an AA build in Ranked. 

The change isn't really going to turn BBs that had AP secondaries into brawlers. IT's more of a quality of life change to fix the silly notion that AP secondaries were useful. It doesn't turn BBs which previously had AP secondaries into Massachusetts or Bismarck. I'm not saying people should not build for secondaries on other ships. I'm just saying if it wasn't great at it before, this change doesn't make it great now. The thing that makes ships like Mass and the high-tier Germans good secondary brawlers is they have improved ROF and range on their secondaries. Swapping the AP secondaries to HE really just means they can help fish for fires. It would help if someone could do an approximation of how much damage this change will give those BBs, but I highly doubt it is that much regardless of talents. 

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