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Matchup Monday - Scharnhorst vs. Nagato

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WG_SPB_WoWs_Screenshot19_upd060_Nagato_1920x1080.jpg.jpgSharnhorst_WG_SPB_WoWS_Full.psd.jpg 

The IJN Nagato meets the DKM Scharnhorst, which one gets the best of the other?

In one corner is the Nagato. Armed with 410mm main guns with deadly accuracy and the highest stock health pool of battleships in Tier VII, she can rain firepower at long and short ranges.

In the other corner is the Scharnhorst. Despite being armed with smaller 283mm main guns, her high rate of fire and excellent maneuverability made it the perfect platform for raider missions and engaging individual warships.

Nagato vs Scharnhorst, which battlewagon will live to fight another day?

"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy." - Horatio Nelson, Royal Navy

#matchupmonday

#anchorsaweigh

 

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Agreed, Scharnhorst.  I never really felt comfortable with Nagato.  Never really got her to work well.  But Scharn is one of my go-to ships.

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Scharnhorst, without a doubt. The only real advantage Nagato has is the size of the main guns, and that's negated by Scharn's armor scheme and speed. I've wrecked many, many Nagato's with my Scharn. I also firmly believe She'd have lost to Scharnhorst in real life, as well.

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Scharnhorst, unless maybe if Nagato gets an early spotting range advantage and can land shells from max range. 

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Scharnhorst is like Ali with the whole float like a butterfly and sting like a bee theme going. Whereas Nagato is like George Foreman, and hits like a truck. Ali did knockout Foreman during the Rumble in The Jungle because he could hit like a truck as well. Scharnhorst's will knockout Nagato in a one on one confrontation because of it's better maneuverability, and it's torps give it the knockout punch in a close up brawl.

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Scharnhorst without a doubt.  9 20s reload guns, high speed, good armor, torps, German secondaries?  Yeah, Scharn has but to charge Nagato n double torp it, while burning it down with HE on the way in.

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2 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Scharnhorst, without a doubt. The only real advantage Nagato has is the size of the main guns, and that's negated by Scharn's armor scheme and speed. I've wrecked many, many Nagato's with my Scharn. I also firmly believe She'd have lost to Scharnhorst in real life, as well.

With all being equal I agree on both. Considering the state of damage control in the IJN during WW2 and the better optics & gunnery certainly the Scharnhorst. The HMS Glorious was hit by the Scharnhorst at 26,000 yards to match the Warspite's hit of the same distance on the Giulio Cesare, about 15 miles. These are accepted as the longest battleship shots hitting a moving ship.

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The only way the Nagato can win is if it gets in a hard hit early on. Once the Scharnhorst closes the range it is all Scharnhorst.

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In this game, Scharnhorst easily. Once it becomes a closer in fight, Nagato's IJN dispersion/reload times, not to mention the torps and speed Scharnhorst has will make it very onesided. During that tier 7 ranked season Nagatos were nothing more than targets unless the player in one was very good.

Edited by MnemonScarlet
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1v1 I think it would be in Scharnhorst's favor but not by a landslide. The ideal engagement for both ships would be Nagato (survivability build) kiting at an angle and Scharnhorst (secondary build) pushing bow-in.

Nagato has big guns and fair accuracy, but Scharnhorst is extremely durable.

Scharnhorst will inevitably catch up and initiate CQC, but Nagato will not take a lot of damage while kiting due to Scharnhorst lacking caliber.

 

This is Scharnhorst's fight to win, but there are some caveats:

1. She needs to be in close quarters to have any chance at victory against a skilled Nagato, a fight at medium or long ranges is a sure defeat.

2. Scharnhorst will probably have to resort to HE while approaching. German HE is not good, but at least she has a fast rate of fire.

3. A lot of her CQC bite comes from the torpedoes. Failing to use them effectively gives Nagato much better odds at victory.

4. She will be more vulnerable to HE because of the secondary build. This isn't as big of an issue since IJN BBs don't usually fire HE (their secondaries sure don't), but the option is still there for Nagato.

 

Nagato has an uphill battle, but it's not all hopeless:

1. The longer she can stay out of CQC the better the fight will go. Kiting is mandatory. Avoiding the torpedoes is mandatory.

2. Proper damage control will be of utmost importance. Scharnhorst will be throwing out a lot of HE and threaten flooding. If the enemy fails to put up a sufficient amount of DoT damage before entering CQC, then Nagato has better chances of killing the Scharnhorst with raw AP pens before the secondary damage starts to rack up.

3. Disabling or even destroying Scharnhorst's main guns and torpedo tubes is possible due to Scharnhorst's build. The odds are not in your favor, but the tactic is worth considering.

Edited by Flashtirade
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A lot depends on the player skill that we will assume for the captains. For the sake of fairness we shall obviously apply the same amount of skill to each side, as it would otherwise be a flawed comparison.

Why this is important is because while Scharnhorst no doubt has a lower skill floor due to multiple factors (more comfortable gun handling, comfortable ballistics and a reload that make a miss not as crucial, and a very forgiving armor scheme) her skill ceiling is also lower due to the worse accuracy and weaker AP impact.

Assuming that both captains are the most primitive kind of players we can imagine, the battle will be won by Scharnhorst. Both sides, unable to land shells at anything we would consider long range, or even medium range, will be trying to rush the other, where Scharnhorst will shred Nagato due to her protection against catastrophic damage, while being able to land such damage with her Torpedoes.

Going to the other extreme, assuming that both players are seasoned veterans of this game, are praying the game's mechanics before sleeping every night and rarely, if at all, do any mistakes, the balance will shift towards Nagato. Aware of Nagato's limitations the captain of Nagato will be kiting for as long as possible, keeping her well angled to prevent Scharnhorst's AP from dealing significant damage while also being able to migitate the fire damage due to excellent DCP handling and a proper build. While the Scharnhorst captain will no doubt attempt to get close Nagato can land shells in the forward turrets and superstructure semi-reliably, causing painful damage and worst of all module damage.

And somewhere in between these two extremes is the skill level at which both will be equal. No idea tbh where that is, mostly because player skill is difficult to measure.

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5 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

1v1 I think it would be in Scharnhorst's favor but not by a landslide. The ideal engagement for both ships would be Nagato (survivability build) kiting at an angle and Scharnhorst (secondary build) pushing bow-in.

Nagato has big guns and fair accuracy, but Scharnhorst is extremely durable.

Scharnhorst will inevitably catch up and initiate CQC, but Nagato will not take a lot of damage while kiting due to Scharnhorst lacking caliber.

 

This is Scharnhorst's fight to win, but there are some caveats:

1. She needs to be in close quarters to have any chance at victory against a skilled Nagato, a fight at medium or long ranges is a sure defeat.

2. Scharnhorst will probably have to resort to HE while approaching. German HE is not good, but at least she has a fast rate of fire.

3. A lot of her CQC bite comes from the torpedoes. Failing to use them effectively gives Nagato much better odds at victory.

4. She will be more vulnerable to HE because of the secondary build. This isn't as big of an issue since IJN BBs don't usually fire HE (their secondaries sure don't), but the option is still there for Nagato.

 

Nagato has an uphill battle, but it's not all hopeless:

1. The longer she can stay out of CQC the better the fight will go. Kiting is mandatory. Avoiding the torpedoes is mandatory.

2. Proper damage control will be of utmost importance. Scharnhorst will be throwing out a lot of HE and threaten flooding. If the enemy fails to put up a sufficient amount of DoT damage before entering CQC, then Nagato has better chances of killing the Scharnhorst with raw AP pens before the secondary damage starts to rack up.

3. Disabling or even destroying Scharnhorst's main guns and torpedo tubes is possible due to Scharnhorst's build. The odds are not in your favor, but the tactic is worth considering.

Its easier than this.

If Sharn misses it's torps Nagato wins at every range.

Where you aim at German BBs is right under the turrets and they eat full pens and has the added value of knocking the turrets out. Also I have found that most Sharn players will turn and run after you whack them once or twice on approach, unless they feel they can get in close enough to launch torps.

The torps are really Sharn's only hope to win this and the way the game mechanics work Sharn really is a good DD.

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I will take the Nagato all day every day. In a random this weekend I defeated two Scharnhorsts in a Fuso. I kited them across the entire map , was angled will and made them eat salvo after salvo of HE while they struggled to get within Torpedo range. 

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Nagato would have the advantage so long as it could keep the Scharhorst at range, around 12 plus km. Scharnhorst's 11inch guns do not perform well past 12 k. But if Scharnhorst can keep its bow turned in and close the distance, then her 11 inch guns will come alive and her torpedoes are the ultimate trump card.

Further, I believe Nagato was the choice for pros in the last tier 7 ranked season.

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1 hour ago, BlueByYou said:

Scharnhorst is like Ali with the whole float like a butterfly and sting like a bee theme going. Whereas Nagato is like George Foreman, and hits like a truck. Ali did knockout Foreman during the Rumble in The Jungle because he could hit like a truck as well. Scharnhorst's will knockout Nagato in a one on one confrontation because of it's better maneuverability, and it's torps give it the knockout punch in a close up brawl.

Ali knocked out Foreman because George was mentally beat and exhausted from punching himself out on Ali's arms during the rope a dope. He could have gotten up but mentally he was not willing.

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10 minutes ago, Captain_Doll said:

Nagato would have the advantage so long as it could keep the Scharhorst at range, around 12 plus km. Scharnhorst's 11inch guns do not perform well past 12 k. But if Scharnhorst can keep its bow turned in and close the distance, then her 11 inch guns will come alive and her torpedoes are the ultimate trump card.

Further, I believe Nagato was the choice for pros in the last tier 7 ranked season.

Nagato, iIrc was the top BB until the last 2 weeks when the better players already ranked out or quit. I think Nagato was the only BB to average 50K+

Edit:

@HazeGrayUnderway did have the stats and would know better.

Edited by StoneRhino
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27 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

Its easier than this.

If Sharn misses it's torps Nagato wins at every range.

Where you aim at German BBs is right under the turrets and they eat full pens and has the added value of knocking the turrets out. Also I have found that most Sharn players will turn and run after you whack them once or twice on approach, unless they feel they can get in close enough to launch torps.

The torps are really Sharn's only hope to win this and the way the game mechanics work Sharn really is a good DD.

I was not aware of the turret thing, that's pretty convenient. I think one of Nagato's biggest issues in this fight is getting significant damage on Scharnhorst before being forced into CQC. Standard pens into the superstructure can only do so much, but if Nagato can get even more while also knocking out the turrets then that's a big plus.

What I do know is that Scharns in general don't make use of their HE when they are only scratching with their AP. I think a Scharn could easily put one or two fires on a Nagato before entering secondary range, making it harder for the latter to choose when to damecon.

I wouldn't mind being either ship in the 1v1 scenario really.

Edited by Flashtirade
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In this matchup, driving Scharn, I'd use main gun HE for at least part of the approach -- not only does Nag present some hard angles for Scharn's AP, I'd also try to get fires started and hopefully force the Nag to use DCP before secondaries came into range and then torpedoes hit.

 

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6 minutes ago, sPzAbt505 said:

Scharnhorst.  Bow in, close range while chucking HE, eat.

 

 

Bow in is the last thing you should do against Nagato with a Tier VII or lower Battleship.  She will Overmatch and Citadel right through the bow.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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One has overmatch, the other does not.

Nagato wins 100 times out of 100.

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All Nagato has to do is kite away at an angle. Scharnhorst has a soft snout and those 41cm guns can citadel a bow-in Scharnhorst at even the slightest angle due to a soft spot right under the forward turret.

 

Scharnhorst meanwhile has to rely on HE, as an angled Nagato will never be penned by pitiful 28cm AP, and 30 knots does not close adequately quickly on 25 knots for Scharnhorst to rely on torpedoes to finish the job.

 

Scharn gets wrecked.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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15 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

I was not aware of the turret thing, that's pretty convenient. What I do know is that Scharns in general don't make use of their HE when they are only scratching with their AP. I think a Scharn could easily put one or two fires on a Nagato before entering secondary range, making it harder for the latter to choose when to damecon.

I wouldn't mind being either ship in the 1v1 scenario really.

Ya, its a big flaw in their design (In game only). Take them into armor viewer and turn the ship until you see most of the secondaries and those front "Cheeks" become almost flat. Then if they bow in to much they will eat citadels below tier 8.

The secondary range can be a double edged sword verse Nagato. If you open up to much Nagato's AP secondaries can punch through Sharn's bow, stern, upper hull and superstructure. In addition to starting fires too.

Brawling it will come down to the torpedoes.

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