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_RC1138

Submarine Trees

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So with most people seemingly embracing subs as fun, and, while of course tweaks would be needed (I mean in general, do any of the ships in the Halloween Ops work 1:1 the way normal ships in normal modes work?) I think it can be safe to say that Wargaming has proven that, within the established mechanics, subs can work. The rest, aka the most difficult part, is balancing between each other/other classes/broader rebalancing around them. But let's pretend, for a moment, such a thing is 'easy' and rectified; what do you see the tech trees looking like? When you stop and consider it, there are actually an abnormally high amount of sub classes and members of those classes, to say nothing of famous outliers like the Surcouf. And yes, there are MORE than enough subs for a few nations (US and RN especially) to have more than 1 line (how they would differentiate them, perhaps with different torp types or things of that nature, is anyones' guess). The beautiful thing about subs is, baring a few cases, almost NO paper ships are required, more than can be said of almost ANY surface ship line.

Now the trees I propose, obviously take with a grain of salt, are predicated on one common idea: that *historical* submarine speeds will not be adhered to and instead artificial speeds will be chosen on the basis of balance; so for example a Gato couldn't go at 27 knots on the surface, but for balance purposes, if it's at T8/9, it probably should. My justification for this change? If DD's can get unlimited torps (as would subs), and DD's get stealth field generators, and BB's get (mostly) the unique ability to heal, and (soon) CV's will have unlimited planes, and it's HE, not AP, that starts fires, and the million or so OTHER things ignored for balance purposes, I feel giving subs a little kick in the [edited]for surface speeds is NOT a huge ask.

So to start, because I know this is where WGing would, my proposed RU Sub tree is as follows:

Tier III: Osetr Class; a good semi-mini Sub with 3 tubes, 2 fore, 1 aft, typical of what I assume a TIII sub would have to be (much like how TIII DD's are).

Tier IV: My gut says the Akula, but they may want that for a Premium, so failing that the Kaiman class could fit at T4, although it's still more of a mini-sub than a full patrol sub.

Tier V: Bars Class; about as big of a WWI sub as you'd expect to see and slow diving will make her interesting at T5

Tier VI: Dekabrist Class; very likely the T6 (in fact the one I am most sure of) as this is kinda exactly what a Post WWI RU Sub would be expected to be like; for reference, it's very close to an S-Boat in capability, and was fairly modern in design for the time.

Tier VII: Shchuka Class; solid Tier VII; very much a pre-War boat, not flashy, but fairly modern layout for the year of launch

Tier VIII: S-Class; basically a German Type IX. This isn't supposition either; these boats were developed alongside Germany and really were basically a Soviet made Type IX. Likely a solid T8 based on the size of the torp armament and the assumed jump in underwater ability/range

Tier IX: K-Class; honestly this is a tough one; they were great boats, but at TIX might be a bit too far for them. It's not hard to expect Russian subs to get some fantasy upgrades beyond that of their peers, but the K-Class is tough to place; either a strong T8 or a weak T9. The Whiskey, although much newer, could fit here with the Zulu after but that might require some downgrading.

Tier X: Zulu Class; I imagine most of the Tier X's would be soon-ish post war designs, and most, if not all, of them will CLOSELY resemble the Type XXI's, because of how influential these were, and the Zulu's are basically the Soviet version of the Type XXI. If the Zulu's are too large/too many tubes, then a Whiskey Class can fit in snugly for largely the same reasons.

Royal Navy

Tier III: D-Class; heavier than most Tier 3's but it can be balanced with so-so torps

Tier IV: E-Class; stereotypical WWI era RN Boat

Tier V: L-Class; On par with other Tier V's, especially by having the RN Mk II 21" Torp

Tier VI: S-Class; one of the most work-horse like subs in the world

Tier VII: T-Class; a hard to maneuver but hard hitting Alpha strike capable sub

Tier VIII: V-Class; what else would be the RN T8?

Tier IX: Amphion Class; about as heavy of a WWII sub as you're going to find outside an Axis Nation

Tier X: Again, as usual, it's a Type XXI derivative, the Porpoise Class

KM

Tier III: Has to be U1. A bit underpowered for Tier III? Yep, but the first German boat HAS to be the U1.

Tier IV: Type 19; ironically a bit more powerful perhaps than the other Tier 4's (and more flexiable with equal aft and fore tubes)

Tier V: Type UBIII; heavy for a Tier V with a big old deck gun, but this is the stereotypical WWI era U-Boat.

Tier VI: Type IA; although newer than most T6 boats, she was basically a rebuild of WWI era boats

Tier VII: This is the tough spot. Do you make it the Type VIIC? Is a Type VIIC op for Tier 7? It might be, but here it goes

Tier VIII: If the Type VIIC is too strong for T7, then it goes here (with the Type IID at T7); otherwise, this might be the only Paper sub needed; either a Type VIII or Type IX with some kind of downgrade for balance

Tier IX: Type IXC; similar to, but far more flexible than, the Gato class.

Tier X: Obviously, the Type XXI; it keeps coming up for a reason

USN

Tier III: C-Class; oh how I want the Holland to be in the game, but the sad fact is she would struggle at T2, much less T3; the C-Class is the earliest USN Sub class that resembles a WWI era sub

Tier IV: L-Class; rare Tier IV with a deck gun (which I think will be the US 'thing')

Tier V: S-Class; these were great boats, serving all the way into WWII. Could be OP for T5 depending on how they are implemented (otherwise it would be an R at T5 and the S at T6).

Tier VI: Salmon Class: This is when the US started designing boats as 'Fleet Boats' and were comparatively heavier armed than most other nations.

Tier VII: Tambor Class; very heavy torp armament for a T6 and super long ranged, probably one of the most successful interwar Subs

Tier VIII: Gato; yeah this one's tough too, as a Gato can be tuned to be very powerful at T8 or T9, but I think of T8 as when the 'real' ships show up and future USN Subs followed the Gato (with a Guppy upgrade) example for many decades to follow

Tier IX: Balao w/ Guppy IIA upgrade; while technically post war, compared to other T9's this sub will be trading any chance of AA/surface fighting ability for longer undersea time w/ the USN standard of very heavy armaments

Tier X: Part of me really thinks it should be the Nautilus, although balancing an SSN at even TX would be hard due to 'unlimited' dive time (but for fairness, light for T10 torp armaments to say nothing of being oversized and an easier target). There might be a way to do it but that's up to WGing, the Tang-Class is the most appropriate probably because, you guessed it, it's basically an americanized Type XXI.

IJN

Tier III: You *maybe* could do a Type I, with some futzing with torps/spotting to make it fair, otherwise it's a bit underpowered at T3; it's basically a Holland (spoiler alert: until ~WWII, almost all IJN subs are basically 1:1 copies of foreign made subs)

Tier IV: Ha-3 Class; a C-Class (Royal Navy) sub. Very much what I would expect a Tier 4

Tier V:  Ha-7 Class; Basically a home-made Ha-3; give it better torps

Tier VI: S7 Type; kinda small, but it gets Type 93's so it's hard to complain

Tier VII: Kaidai Type II, very heavy deck gun and torp armament, as the IJN Subs start to transfer into being oversized

Tier VIII: J1; the IJN would never look back from basically building undersea cruisers

Tier IX: I-400; oversized? Yes. TX material? Maybe. Should it be a Tier 9 though? Yep

Tier X: I-201, although not STRICTLY a Type XXI it was basically developed on a parallel course and might as well just be a Type XXI; a speed demon in her own right, this is a *solid* TX boat, even compared to post war entries.

French

Tier III:

Tier IV:

Tier V:

Tier VI:

Tier VII:

Tier VIII:

Tier IX:

Tier X:

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Nice list. You should add this to the other thread.

 

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But WG said there would never be submarines....so we don't like them, or want them to bother us while we're boating.

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20 minutes ago, slokill_1 said:

But WG said there would never be submarines....so we don't like them, or want them to bother us while we're boating.

Did not actually say Never. 

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5 hours ago, _RC1138 said:

Tier VI: S-Class; one of the most work-horse like subs in the world

Tier VII: T-Class; a hard to maneuver but hard hitting Alpha strike capable sub

Tier VIII: V-Class; what else would be the RN T8? 

We don't really have much of a guideline to set out potential submarines. With new lines you can compare to existing ships and look for equivalency, with submarines we have a handful of seemingly arbitrarily tiered extra-hyper-gimmick submarines which make very little sense.

The Type VII could be the T5 German submarine, or the T8, though I doubt it would be the T10, we just don't know where they'll go with it.

I'd guess that boats with higher displacement would get more HP, which suggests higher tier. I'd guess that more speed would convert into more speed somehow, but how critical it would be I don't know. I'd guess that smaller would produce better concealment, but I suspect it's likely to be 'very good' for all of them and perhaps irrelevant submerged. Will deck guns matter at all? Will torpedo tube availability? How much will better torpedoes be worth?

For the RN boats I don't even know which characteristics matter when it comes to balance.

As built:

  • The S-class gets 6 forward TT, none aft. Her displacement is slight at 730t. Doing 13.75kt on the surface and 10kt submerged is good.
  • The T-class is very heavily hitting as you say, - up to 8 forward TT and 3 aft. With a 1,330t displacement and doing 15.25kt on the surface and 9kt submerged it's... good I guess?
  • The V-class get just 4 TT in the bow, none aft. They were small - based on the U-class (originally for training) submarines which turned out to be very handy in confined waters - only 660t, less than the S-class boats. Speed is lower on the surface, about the same submerged: 11.25/10kt.

The T's did get a streamlining refit post-war which did improve underwater performance, at the expense of TT and the deck gun. The Amphion class did too. I could see those going to higher tiers even though they lost offensive output, but if every sub's going to do high speeds then... meh.

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11 hours ago, mofton said:

We don't really have much of a guideline to set out potential submarines. With new lines you can compare to existing ships and look for equivalency, with submarines we have a handful of seemingly arbitrarily tiered extra-hyper-gimmick submarines which make very little sense.

The Type VII could be the T5 German submarine, or the T8, though I doubt it would be the T10, we just don't know where they'll go with it.

I based my projections on the way other lines of ships' work; that is to say, T2 is typically turn of the Century stuff, T3, T4, and T5 are typically just barely pre-WWI to just post/during WWI, T6 are usually interwar ships, T7 is 'gearing up' ships (beginning to toss aside treaties too), and T8+, while typically pre-war, are typically the 'workhorse' classes of WWII and/or defining classes of WWII's endstate.

Using that as a framework I went through the sub classes I knew and ones I didn't to find appropriate fits. Likewise I kept in mind certain tiers, T5, T7, T8, and T9 often have BIG jumps in abilities, and that the boats in those spots need to correspond.

As far as the Type VIIC is concerned, yes, that's a tough one. I would argue it would never be a T5 since it is DECIDEDLY a WWII era sub, thus kinda has to be at least T7, but it could be a T8, depending on tuning.

11 hours ago, mofton said:

For the RN boats I don't even know which characteristics matter when it comes to balance.

As for most classes, I'm treating tonnage as a corollary to air-supply, so that the bigger boats get to stay submerged longer. Now what national flavor each side gets, that's a WHOLE other discussion on how to define EACH line. IMO it should go something like this:

RN: Torps that can hit other subs, even submerged to Periscope/First dept, and slightly larger on average (earlier in tree) with decent, if not short ranged, torps.

USN: Speedier than most other subs (to 'replicate' their longer than typical range), with lower ranged, weaker torps (since duds don't exist in game -yet-), deck guns on most with so-so performance, with fast dive times but average below surface time.

RU: Slow divers with brief dive times, shorter, but powerful torps

KM: Stealthiest of the branches, with faster reloading torps, and very fast dive times, but smaller size (comparatively) makes them highly vulnerable to attack

IJN: Toughest to define but very good, long range stealthy torps that can only hit BB's/CV's, but oversized boats with large hit pools but easier to spot.

 

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The only reason they are “fun” is because they have super OP stats and are fighting against bots that might as well be on rails.

Like playing destroyers against battleships, if they had 4k detections and went 80 knots. Sure that would be “fun”. Nowhere close to “balanced” though. 

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19 hours ago, _RC1138 said:

Tier VIII: Gato; yeah this one's tough too, as a Gato can be tuned to be very powerful 

Make the Barb a premium with rockets. They could be used to attack ships or for land-attack in operations. 

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2 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

The only reason they are “fun” is because they have super OP stats and are fighting against bots that might as well be on rails.

Like playing destroyers against battleships, if they had 4k detections and went 80 knots. Sure that would be “fun”. Nowhere close to “balanced” though. 

You win the prize.

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23 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

The only reason they are “fun” is because they have super OP stats and are fighting against bots that might as well be on rails.

Like playing destroyers against battleships, if they had 4k detections and went 80 knots. Sure that would be “fun”. Nowhere close to “balanced” though. 

So, in the same breath, you think the BB's, CA/CL's, CV's and DD's in the Halloween ops work *exactly* the same as they do in Randoms? I didn't realize BB's had less MB range than Cruisers, monster secondaries, and a general area heal (oh and an immortality potion as well). I also didn't realize that CV's had a magic 'freeze' button to use at will and as needed. Nor did I realize that DD's had the ability to heal based on where they were on a map. All new info....

Of [edited]course how subs work *now* in the Halloween Op will only have SPARINGLY to do with how they would work in 'real' matches. How can you be so obtuse to not see that? I highly doubt things like freeze torps, rapid surfacing/submerging, (comparatively) brief undersea time, and the whole way torps function will be 1:1 how they will work when implemented, but subs represent TOO lucrative of a market to not be implemented: people have been asking for them since Alpha, there are TONS of unique and/or famous premiums to mine, to say nothing of EASILY the most complete lines to produce trees (which in turn generates profits from Captain retraining, port slots, free XP, camos, flags (if mountable) consumables, ext). And the fact is, while there ARE plenty of *ships* to still release, there are fewer LINES to release. RN CV's, maybe an RN CC line, a second USN BB line, MAYBE a second USN DD line (and it really would be hard to differentiate them), French DD's, Italian CA/CL's and DD's... and that's about it. But SS's open up at least 1 line for all the main Nations. And that's not something WGing is going to ignore long term.

Edited by _RC1138

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20 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

Out of curiosity @_RC1138, what would be the best tier for the RN's K-class?

Assuming it's 4" are MUCH less potent than the ones present in the Halloween Op, probably around 4-5, maybe T6 as a Premium with some futzing around.

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They can't even correct BBs being overpowered since 2015, DDs being the lowest performing ship type since launch, BBs void of any relevant counter, Torpedoes abysmal performance, much less picking a singular balance model and sticking with it. Not sure how Subs are going to fare.

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54 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

Out of curiosity @_RC1138, what would be the best tier for the RN's K-class?

Well with the way players love to crash into each other in this game the Kalamity class of subs would fit right in.

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Here is what I want to know:

How in the hell is the random implementation going to happen with subs that can barely break double-digit speed, and most cruise at 8kts submerged? 

Something doing 8 knots trying to get away from a DD that can do 40kts with depth charges and sonar seems.....pathetic

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41 minutes ago, Sbane12 said:

They can't even correct BBs being overpowered since 2015, DDs being the lowest performing ship type since launch, BBs void of any relevant counter, Torpedoes abysmal performance, much less picking a singular balance model and sticking with it. Not sure how Subs are going to fare.

Is it not obvious? Subs make a FAR better threat to BB's than DD"s could/should/ If anything, subs make the MOST logical threat and thus counter: they attack from VERY close range, which means a BB, being slow to react is... slow to react. They are very small and thus hard to hit, them randomly disappearing at 5 km actually makes sense unlike DD"s, they are very vulnerable to rapid DD or CA/CL fire but able to maneuver and run away rapidly if need be. At that point, the only class that needs a rework (assuming CV's go through) are DD's: they need their surface combat abilities nerfed a tad and turned into screeners/defenders (you know, like DD"s were IN REALITY).

22 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:


How in the hell is the random implementation going to happen with subs that can barely break double-digit speed, and most cruise at 8kts submerged? 

If you actually read my post you'd see the answer: give them fake speed upgrades. Torps move at ~186-250 knots (when actual speeds, distance, and size is taken into account, DD's carry unlimited reloads and have no citadels. CA/CL's float planes magically run out of fuel in ~1.5 or 45 seconds, CVs will (soon) be getting UNLIMITED planes, overpens below the water line mysteriously don't cause flooding, fires only start from AP. momentum is totally no existent in the WoWs world,  and ships have stealth field generators that render them 100% invisible, including their smoke, at random distances, but it's the SUBMARINE SPEED where you draw the line? THATS where incredulity rules? Get a grip. You make submarrines work by giving them a SPEED that balances their offensive and defensive abilities, and largely ignore real world stats. Unless you are willing to remove ALL that stuff above (and much much more) the pretense of realism was DROPPED a long [edited]time ago, and this can be subs' 'thing' they get that's unrealistic. 

 

Edited by _RC1138

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8 hours ago, _RC1138 said:

I based my projections on the way other lines of ships' work; that is to say, T2 is typically turn of the Century stuff, T3, T4, and T5 are typically just barely pre-WWI to just post/during WWI, T6 are usually interwar ships, T7 is 'gearing up' ships (beginning to toss aside treaties too), and T8+, while typically pre-war, are typically the 'workhorse' classes of WWII and/or defining classes of WWII's endstate.

That's a reasonable framework, and age is generally a good guideline for tier, though it's more correlation than direct causation. It will be interesting to see which nations go with older designs, for T8 cruisers for instance the age range is from the Mogami lain down in 1931 to ships like the Cleveland/Chapayev lain down in 1940-1941.

I'd suspect submarines would stay relatively close to destroyer timing, but who knows. I don't think a T5 Type VII is that likely, but if WG wanted to start with a certain baseline they might. Certainly for aircraft they start much later - the T5 Bogue, playing with Iron Duke gets a circa 1940-1941 airgroup of Wildcats for instance. Submarines might be 'offset' later than most.

8 hours ago, _RC1138 said:

As for most classes, I'm treating tonnage as a corollary to air-supply, so that the bigger boats get to stay submerged longer.

Bigger subs submerging for longer would make some sense (in as much as submarines submerging on the order of minutes makes sense) sure, and more HP based on existing tonnage-based formulae. Should a big sub take longer to recharge air/batteries though? On the downside, bigger should mean worse concealment and you could argue that bigger should mean longer diving times - certainly it was the disadvantage of the Type IX over the Type VII, how important that might be is unknown. Will torpedo 'broadside' matter that much either?

All that means it's hard to judge tiering.

Some national flavors are a good idea too. Yours seem like solid suggestions.

3 hours ago, _RC1138 said:

If you actually read my post you'd see the answer: give them fake speed upgrades. Torps move at ~186-250 knots (when actual speeds, distance, and size is taken into account, DD's carry unlimited reloads and have no citadels.

I know this was directed at someone else, but I do see a huge problem in submarine speed.

In short: "Can submarines be made slow enough that ASW 'works', while remaining fun for the submarine driver?"

So far, every ship has the same in-game speed multiplier (and same for torpedoes, plus 20kt on their historic base speed). If you give submarines a further buff, from say 8kt to 15-24kt (2-3 times relatively faster) then it becomes even more difficult for any kind of ASW ship trying a depth charge attack to close and effectively ram. Ramming a 20kt ship which is trying to avoid it is very difficult. The difference in closing speed between chasing an 8kt and a 24kt submarine at say 35kt in a destroyer is huge - closing speed dropping from 27kt to just 11kt, meaning it takes more than 3x as long to close the same distance.

Given submarines are small targets which may only fleetingly remain on the surface increasing the speed to pretty fast levels also seems problematic. A small, fleeting but only 12-15kt target is far easier to target with guns in-game than one doing 25kt.

In game chasing an 8kt submarine which has teammates is going to be a nightmare, chasing a 24kt one - I don't know how they can readily balance that unless you give depth charges pretty extreme range (I'm talking 4-7km).

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Unless you have an interest in sushi, I see no reason to be discussing kelp farms.

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On ‎11‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 12:00 PM, _RC1138 said:

IJN

Tier III: You *maybe* could do a Type I, with some futzing with torps/spotting to make it fair, otherwise it's a bit underpowered at T3; it's basically a Holland (spoiler alert: until ~WWII, almost all IJN subs are basically 1:1 copies of foreign made subs)

Tier IV: Ha-3 Class; a C-Class (Royal Navy) sub. Very much what I would expect a Tier 4

Tier V:  Ha-7 Class; Basically a home-made Ha-3; give it better torps

Tier VI: S7 Type; kinda small, but it gets Type 93's so it's hard to complain

Tier VII: Kaidai Type II, very heavy deck gun and torp armament, as the IJN Subs start to transfer into being oversized

Tier VIII: J1; the IJN would never look back from basically building undersea cruisers

Tier IX: I-400; oversized? Yes. TX material? Maybe. Should it be a Tier 9 though? Yep

Tier X: I-201, although not STRICTLY a Type XXI it was basically developed on a parallel course and might as well just be a Type XXI; a speed demon in her own right, this is a *solid* TX boat, even compared to post war entries.

In regards to the IJN, what's your opinion on launching a fighter plane while surfaced? 

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10 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

In regards to the IJN, what's your opinion on launching a fighter plane while surfaced? 

Fine as long as it stays surfaced until it recovers it.

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11 minutes ago, gillhunter said:

Fine as long as it stays surfaced until it recovers it.

Whys that? 

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13 hours ago, _RC1138 said:

people have been asking for them since Alpha, there are TONS of unique and/or famous premiums to mine, to say nothing of EASILY the most complete lines to produce trees (which in turn generates profits from Captain retraining, port slots, free XP, camos, flags (if mountable) consumables, ext). And the fact is, while there ARE plenty of *ships* to still release, there are fewer LINES to release. RN CV's, maybe an RN CC line, a second USN BB line, MAYBE a second USN DD line (and it really would be hard to differentiate them), French DD's, Italian CA/CL's and DD's... and that's about it. But SS's open up at least 1 line for all the main Nations. And that's not something WGing is going to ignore long term.

Not to mention, probably super simple to model too.

What a disaster for game play these are going to be. 

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12 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

Here is what I want to know:

How in the hell is the random implementation going to happen with subs that can barely break double-digit speed, and most cruise at 8kts submerged? 

Something doing 8 knots trying to get away from a DD that can do 40kts with depth charges and sonar seems.....pathetic

Simple, rear facing torpedo tubes with t4 isokaze reloads.

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