Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
coldsteelfury

Gneisenau AA

29 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
55 posts
19 battles

I've got a Gneisenau with second hull and the following commander skills: PM, AR, BFT, AFT

AA rating roughly 81, which I thought was pretty good.

Except when I was in a game with an enemy T8 Lexington, the enemy CV didn't seem to fear me at all. Not even though I was next to a friendly T9 Kii.

I had read how awesome the Gneisenau's AA was meant to be but I was disappointed at how the ship's AA didn't really seem to affect the CV strikes against me. I kept being visited by dive bombers and I recall one instance where I was dive bombed and the squadron only took one casualty. Pretty poor!

It seems like if you don't spec the Gneisenau to be full AA with the the MFCAA and turn her into AA-death, that her AA suite is pretty average and no real source of comfort or security.

As I've only got a 10 point commander, I'm experimenting with the AA 2 module to extend my AA range and buff my AA rating to 93. I'm hoping that will provide some protection from CVs until I get 14 points and decide whether I want to go full AA [edited] or manual secondaries. I'd rather go  manual secondaries but I'm wondering if I have to go full AA to be safe.

Thoughts?

[edited]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,882
[RKLES]
Members
8,959 posts
10,828 battles

Make sure you have the Catapult Fighter and AA signal flags for the weekends or on holidays like around Thanksgiving and Christmas when players use CVs more often. The reason the Lexington would have charged you is likely because they often equip their dive bombers with AP bombs which can cause serious damage to ships like Gneisenau. And yes I hated when Wargaming added AP bombs, but still worth using BBs like Gneisenau. And odd are that Kii while it can have powerful AA guns if the user has sorcery some AA on it might not have had their Kii specced for any extra AA. Which is something a CV player can check while loading onto battle by looking at the AArating of the ships, and a higher than basic AA rating means the ship has upgraded AA rating and the CV may want to stay awY from that ship.

Other thing to be aware of is if you have taken a lot of HE hits since not only do those cause fires, but also destroys some AA mounts sometimes with every HE salvo that hits you can loose a little AA, it depends. So if a ship on enemy team has been working on stripping down your AA guns and informs the CV about what they have been doing then the CV knows it might be safe to make an attack run. But having Catapult Fighter is something that enemy HE shells can’t destroy and can help shoot down some incoming planes and makes some CVs a little wary..

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,445
[WOLF3]
Members
19,722 posts
18,080 battles

If you want Absolute Killer AA on Gneisenau, she needs Manual AA Trait in Tier 4.  If you get down to it, the DPS of her medium and short range AA is just passable.  What really makes it good is her long range AA aura.

 

136.4 Base DPS at long range is very high, especially for anything below Tier IX.  This is higher than Atlanta's long range 120.8 DPS.  But you don't have Defensive Fire.  If you have a Full AA Build, that's where Gneisenau is an absolute No Fly Zone where even Taiho's Tier IX planes get swatted easily by her.

 

Without Manual AA your AA Build is still good, but if you want the AA that makes a CV cry in frustration with Gneisenau, that trait is needed on top of all the other stuff.  For most players that is too steep of a commitment.

 

neKAg4A.jpg

Be sure to select the most dangerous enemy squadron so that your AA gets bonus DPS against that target.  Switch targets as the planes get swatted.

 

Again, it's a very heavy investment.  Without Manual AA, lower and same tier CVs will have lots of problems against you.  But it's the CVs higher tier than you with faster, sturdier planes that will plow through your AA.  Manual AA changes that for Gneisenau because her best AA are the 128mm guns.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
168
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
799 posts
6,966 battles

You need the manual AA captain skill, so 14 points in total. That lifts your AA rating to 96 or so and at long range its 180 DPS.

Its easy to then melt planes of any tier and its a troll build, but one that is very effective.

You do give up long range accuracy, so be prepared for your guns at long range to have dispersion of medieval catapults firing together. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
575
[KP]
Members
2,066 posts
20,302 battles
6 hours ago, coldsteelfury said:

I've got a Gneisenau with second hull and the following commander skills: PM, AR, BFT, AFT

AA rating roughly 81, which I thought was pretty good.

Ex wecept when I was in a game with an enemy T8 Lexington, the enemy CV didn't seem to fear me at all. Not even though I was next to a friendly T9 Kii.

I had read how awesome the Gneisenau's AA was meant to be but I was disappointed at how the ship's AA didn't really seem to affect the CV strikes against me. I kept being visited by dive bombers and I recall one instance where I was dive bombed and the squadron only took one casualty. Pretty poor!

It seems like if you don't spec the Gneisenau to be full AA with the the MFCAA and turn her into AA-death, that her AA suite is pretty average and no real source of comfort or security.

As I've only got a 10 point commander, I'm experimenting with the AA 2 module to extend my AA range and buff my AA rating to 93. I'm hoping that will provide some protection from CVs until I get 14 points and decide whether I want to go full AA [edited] or manual secondaries. I'd rather go  manual secondaries but I'm wondering if I have to go full AA to be safe.

Thoughts?

[edited]

Aft, BFT, AA module, AA flag and here is the most important. You need MANUAL AA captain skill. Also Div with a same tier CV for maximum troll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,505
[CNO]
[CNO]
Members
4,614 posts
14,850 battles

I run a full AA on my QE, but the basic concept is the same.  If you want to be terror to CVs in a BB, then you first must have good long range AA, and then you go all in.  Extend Range.  Plus ups.  Flags.  Manual.  Note the plus ups STACK with Manual.  It's not 100% of base.  It's 100% of the plus up.  You need all the plus ups and as much range as possible.  Maximum lethality at maximum distance.

The good CV players usually check the MM lineup, and avoid me in my QE...even the T8 CVs don't engage unless reds have already won and I'm the next "victim".  Or green has won, and the CV player is just going for the most opportune target.

In additional to the fitting up, there is also the tactical side.  When you see them coming, put them in trail.  This extends the strike package time in the bubble while they're trying to get  lined up.  I've wiped many multi-squadron strike packages this way in my QE.  This does require map awareness.  If you don't maneuver away early, then you are forced to maneuver into the strike (for TBDs), which makes the time they spend in the threat bubble greatly reduced, and leaves you with dodging torps instead of eliminating them before they drop.

Lastly, if a CV captain at tier or above wants to hurt you, they can do it.  In my QE, although T8 CVs normally avoid me, if they bring a full strike package, something will usually get me.  I might wipe 'em all out during egress, but if a T8 want me...they can get me.  On the plus side, it's usually one torpedo or a bomb or two.  Also on the plus side, they often can't wait to see if I DCP because if you have a big bubble, they gotta drop in tandem or risk getting wiped while they wait.

A Gneis vs a  T9 CV...they can hurt you.  But if you're "all in" with AA, and position yourself well, then you can make them work for it, and it might turn out badly for them.  Also, even if you get hurt, you are taking precious T9 attention away from the big guys and it's focused on the T7 little guy.  Sometimes, this alone helps the team.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
55 posts
19 battles

Thanks for the advice folks. Sounds like unless you spec manual, Gneis AA is good but won't provide that umbrella of near invulnerability against aircraft.

Fair enough I suppose. I really like secondary builds but if the manual AA is killer and a unique trait of the ship... why not leverage it.

(I know most games don't have CVs but then again most games I find I'm not in a position to use secondaries without YOLO'ing. Brawling seems to depend as much upon the other team's mistakes as my own ability to pick the moment. At least with stronger AA I can feel like I am doing something in a top tier heavy match where getting close to ships like T9 Musashi would be suicidal... assuming I could ever cover the distance before getting HE spammed)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
376 posts
5 battles

Just a reminder for all those giving advice and the OP, AA is entirely RNG reliant right now, it is theoretically possible (but EXTREMELY UNLIKELY) for a langely's aircraft to slip through a worcester's AA field and get to drop. Is the chance low? hell yea, but is it possible? also yes. ON the opposite end of the spectrum if you roll perfect 1000s over and over again even the wakatake could shoot down a full squad of midway planes, equally unlikely but equally possible if the stars aligned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6
[GTA]
Members
37 posts
10,627 battles

Yeah you need the AA upgrade and then spec manual AA for your captain.  But over over 300DPS out to 7.5km will just shred planes.  The salt can be so satisfying.   My high game in the Gneisenau is 68 planes and being accused of hacking by a furious Kaga driver. 

Edited by cheapinkc
  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
402
[HUNGS]
Members
1,659 posts
3,603 battles
6 hours ago, cheapinkc said:

Yeah you need the AA upgrade and then spec manual AA for your captain.  But over over 300DPS out to 7.5km will just shred planes.  The salt can be so satisfying.   My high game in the Gneisenau is 68 planes and being accused of hacking by a furious Kaga driver. 

Must have been the same Kaga player that came after me in my full AA Texas a couple months ago. I shot down 3 squads for no damage to me, he accused me of cheating during the game and wouldn't leave me alone after the match till I finally blocked him lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,445
[WOLF3]
Members
19,722 posts
18,080 battles
11 hours ago, TheNargacuga said:

Just a reminder for all those giving advice and the OP, AA is entirely RNG reliant right now, it is theoretically possible (but EXTREMELY UNLIKELY) for a langely's aircraft to slip through a worcester's AA field and get to drop. Is the chance low? hell yea, but is it possible? also yes. ON the opposite end of the spectrum if you roll perfect 1000s over and over again even the wakatake could shoot down a full squad of midway planes, equally unlikely but equally possible if the stars aligned. 

It's almost as if the CV Rework is still being worked on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
55 posts
19 battles

Slightly off topic but still relates to the Gneisenau....

Just played a game where my Gneisenau was owned by a T8 Baltimore.

I managed to sink an enemy Aoba but the Baltimore was a different kettle of fish. The Baltimore kept his nose firmly pointed to me at all times and HE spammed. What was unbelievable was that my shells either over penned or bounced. We're talking between 5 - 7km here. I know the Gneisenau's 380mm guns aren't the biggest in the game, but since when can a cruiser bounce 380mm shells from a BB off its nose at 6-ish km? Meanwhile he's HE spamming me and one of his BB friends showed up and that was it for me.

Am I missing something? That Baltimore driver clearly knew something I don't. I thought the closer one gets, the greater the penetrative power of the shells and the more likely you can overcome any [edited] overmatch mechanics?

Second question: What would've been the better way to handle that smart alec Baltimore? Spam HE back? Don't engage without support? (Torp'ing him wasn't an option because he kept his nose at me and was in full reverse... so i was struggling to close the distance)

Edited by coldsteelfury

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
162
[-AGW-]
Members
790 posts
11,158 battles

^ I don't know the details but Baltimore is infamous for just that. 

 

As far as AA is concerned Gneisenau is great for it if upgraded to manual secondaries (and AA); which is also a sort of side benefit of a full manual build on Bismarck.  The trick is to keep enough situational awareness to pick targets in the middle of action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,295
[INTEL]
Members
10,012 posts
28,145 battles
On 11/5/2018 at 1:58 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If you want Absolute Killer AA on Gneisenau, she needs Manual AA Trait in Tier 4.  If you get down to it, the DPS of her medium and short range AA is just passable.  What really makes it good is her long range AA aura.

This +1. I ran a manual AA spec Gneis that was really good against planes, even T8 planes. Sold it because I found myself playing my 200 other T7 BBs more often....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
55 posts
19 battles

MFCAA is definitely a win. It's so odd being in a BB and actually *welcoming* the participation of enemy CVs.

I have an 10 point commander so I re-specced to PM, AR, BFT, MFCAA. I know, I know... AFT seems the logical choice before MFCAA because it buffs AA as well as secondaries... the problem with going AFT before MFCAA is that whilst your AA looks good on paper (93 rating), it's actually anemic in practice and a hollow threat. I find that MFCAA before AFT yields startling different result. I use the AA module to help with range as well, which buffs range to 6km whilst I wait for AFT.

Mmmmmm.... taste those salty CV tears..... yum yum!

20181110a - gneisenau.bmp

20181110b - gneisenau.bmp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,875
[-K-]
[-K-]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
6,214 posts
7,773 battles
On 11/5/2018 at 5:10 AM, _greifer said:

be prepared for your guns at long range to have dispersion of medieval catapults firing together. 

Yeah, catapults won't do. I bet they can't even hit a ship 300 meters away with a 90kg projectile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,445
[WOLF3]
Members
19,722 posts
18,080 battles
5 minutes ago, vak_ said:

Yeah, catapults won't do. I bet they can't even hit a ship 300 meters away with a 90kg projectile.

Not even ASM1 helps Gneisenau's dispersion.  With "German BB Dispersion" and 6 total rifles, it was never going to be reliable at range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36
[1IF]
Members
101 posts
3,413 battles
16 hours ago, coldsteelfury said:

Slightly off topic but still relates to the Gneisenau....

Just played a game where my Gneisenau was owned by a T8 Baltimore.

I managed to sink an enemy Aoba but the Baltimore was a different kettle of fish. The Baltimore kept his nose firmly pointed to me at all times and HE spammed. What was unbelievable was that my shells either over penned or bounced. We're talking between 5 - 7km here. I know the Gneisenau's 380mm guns aren't the biggest in the game, but since when can a cruiser bounce 380mm shells from a BB off its nose at 6-ish km? Meanwhile he's HE spamming me and one of his BB friends showed up and that was it for me.

Am I missing something? That Baltimore driver clearly knew something I don't. I thought the closer one gets, the greater the penetrative power of the shells and the more likely you can overcome any [edited] overmatch mechanics?

Second question: What would've been the better way to handle that smart alec Baltimore? Spam HE back? Don't engage without support? (Torp'ing him wasn't an option because he kept his nose at me and was in full reverse... so i was struggling to close the distance)

27mm external plating on T8+ USN and German cruisers.  15in guns can only overmatch 25mm of external plating.  So, the Balti stayed nose onto you, because that player knew as long as you kept shooting AP, he wasn't going to take much if any damage, because their bow armor can bounce 15in AP.  If you were driving a Nagato or Colorado for example (16in guns), you're AP shells could overmatch the Balti's bow armor and cause lots of damage.  

I remember another thread where a German BB driver (believe they were driving Bismarck) got their posterior handed to them on a silver platter by a Des Moines, trying to use secondaries.  The Des Moines bow tanked the AP, chewed up and spit out that Bismarck.  

Keep an eye on where your teammates are.  That Balti was focused on you, so might not have seen that they were giving up their broadside to one of your teammates.  Spam F3 and get the others to shoot the Balti.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,493
[O7]
Alpha Tester, Alpha Tester
11,365 posts
8,084 battles

Just as a note on AA, the Gneis AA power is mostly in its long range AA which can kill a plane every 5 seconds with good RNG and all the AA skills. That means if a CV with healthy planes like a Lex that brings multiple squads in to attack you simultaneously will get planes through your AA because they just wont die fast enough. That is the major difference between it and something like the US BBs which concentrate the AA power in the mid range AA aura. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
373
[LHG]
Members
1,515 posts
6,070 battles
17 hours ago, coldsteelfury said:

Slightly off topic but still relates to the Gneisenau....

Just played a game where my Gneisenau was owned by a T8 Baltimore.

I managed to sink an enemy Aoba but the Baltimore was a different kettle of fish. The Baltimore kept his nose firmly pointed to me at all times and HE spammed. What was unbelievable was that my shells either over penned or bounced. We're talking between 5 - 7km here. I know the Gneisenau's 380mm guns aren't the biggest in the game, but since when can a cruiser bounce 380mm shells from a BB off its nose at 6-ish km? Meanwhile he's HE spamming me and one of his BB friends showed up and that was it for me.

Am I missing something? That Baltimore driver clearly knew something I don't. I thought the closer one gets, the greater the penetrative power of the shells and the more likely you can overcome any [edited] overmatch mechanics?

Second question: What would've been the better way to handle that smart alec Baltimore? Spam HE back? Don't engage without support? (Torp'ing him wasn't an option because he kept his nose at me and was in full reverse... so i was struggling to close the distance)

Several high-tier cruisers get enough bow armor to bounce 380mm AP. Overmatch is purely dependent on caliber and is checked before any other penetration mechanics come into play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
55 posts
19 battles
7 hours ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Just as a note on AA, the Gneis AA power is mostly in its long range AA which can kill a plane every 5 seconds with good RNG and all the AA skills. That means if a CV with healthy planes like a Lex that brings multiple squads in to attack you simultaneously will get planes through your AA because they just wont die fast enough. That is the major difference between it and something like the US BBs which concentrate the AA power in the mid range AA aura. 

Very true.

My AA is only 6km at this stage and I recently was confronted by yet another Lexington. Because I had MFCAA I was able to shoot down a few planes before they struck but, as you said, those planes are pretty tough and my AA range of only 6km was a real hindrance. Once I get AFT my AA will be 7.6km and I think it'll make a world of difference.

Those dive bombers from the Lexington had AP bombs and, boy, do they ever hit like a truck. You think eating a Japanese torpedo is bad? Try eating an AP bomb from a Lexington dive bomber.... I had two dive bomber squadrons attack me and they both nuked 50% - 66% of my health in a few seconds.

Nasty stuff. Very nasty stuff. I'd almost say OP.

When my AA is buffed to 7.6km, I'll be able to kite those Lexington aircraft a bit more and exact more of a penalty before they hit. They'll probably still be able to hit me though...

Edited by coldsteelfury

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,445
[WOLF3]
Members
19,722 posts
18,080 battles
1 hour ago, coldsteelfury said:

Very true.

My AA is only 6km at this stage and I recently was confronted by yet another Lexington. Because I had MFCAA I was able to shoot down a few planes before they struck but, as you said, those planes are pretty tough and my AA range of only 6km was a real hindrance. Once I get AFT my AA will be 7.6km and I think it'll make a world of difference.

Those dive bombers from the Lexington had AP bombs and, boy, do they ever hit like a truck. You think eating a Japanese torpedo is bad? Try eating an AP bomb from a Lexington dive bomber.... I had two dive bomber squadrons attack me and they both nuked 50% - 66% of my health in a few seconds.

Nasty stuff. Very nasty stuff. I'd almost say OP.

When my AA is buffed to 7.6km, I'll be able to kite those Lexington aircraft a bit more and exact more of a penalty before they hit. They'll probably still be able to hit me though...

That's why I said Range is paramount for AA.  All the DPS in the world doesn't matter if it's confined to 4km, 5km or so.  It's what I like to call, "Too Late AA" at such ranges.  When you start dealing with Tier IX-X CVs, this becomes even more important.  You want DPS!  But you NEED Range to start swatting planes from afar.  Your AA needs time to do work and long range lets them do that.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×