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wjp120

How does AP work at 90°?

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I think I'm missing something in the ballistic mechanics of this game. I'm reading http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration and I don't see anything that says that different size AP shells and different thicknesses of armor behave any differently when a bounce can't happen.  Can the smallest AP penetrate the thickest armor at 90°? Or does this armor offer some extra protection against smaller shells? If not, is the only protection against small AP shells at 90° the fact that they have small damage and heavily armored ships have large HP pools?

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Huh?     just know armor means basically nothing in this game.   None armor penetrating HE shots pen bb armor all the time rofl!

 

The programmers made it so the more armor you have, they more damage you take.   I mean look at DD's, no citadels now they don;t want ap to do any damage to them because they have no armor

Edited by WES_HoundDog
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this is an immensely deep question. so without overloading you with 5 paragraphs of info to answer your question.

  • different guns have different amounts of penetration. larger caliber guns have greater penetration most of the time ( i wont say all the time because there might be a few exceptions)
  • of those different guns sometimes, they have different shells which can make a big difference.
  • protection is talked about at 90* because thats the thinnest nominal thickness. or in other words, when the armor is angled it is thicker effectively thicker.
  • even small caliber guns can penetrate citadels if the range is short enough. (DDs can start scoring citadels on cruisers at like 6km)

im going to ping @Lert because hes one of the best informed around here, and has a thing for being able to explain things.

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7 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

Huh?     just know armor means basically nothing in this game.   None armor penetrating HE shots pen bb armor all the time rofl!

 

The programmers made it so the more armor you have, they more damage you take.   I mean look at DD's, no citadels now they don;t want ap to do any damage to them because they have no armor

^has no idea how mechanics work.

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8 minutes ago, wjp120 said:

I think I'm missing something in the ballistic mechanics of this game. I'm reading http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration and I don't see anything that says that different size AP shells and different thicknesses of armor behave any differently when a bounce can't happen.  Can the smallest AP penetrate the thickest armor at 90°? Or does this armor offer some extra protection against smaller shells? If not, is the only protection against small AP shells at 90° the fact that they have small damage and heavily armored ships have large HP pools?

No, the smallest AP can't penetrate the thickest armor, not even at 90°.

From reviewing the wiki, it doesn't state very explicitly that each gun/shell combination has a different armor penetration and that that effective penetration drops off with range. However, that is the case and penetration must beat armor thickness in order for penetration to succeed.

Armor penetration is typically given in millimeters and can be plotted as a curve. Several websites can show you the penetration curves of the various weapons in the game see - 

https://mustanghx.github.io/ship_ap_calculator/

https://wowsft.com/arty

To check if the armor will be penetrated, you need to know armor thickness, the angle of shell impact and the penetration value of the shell at the range it strikes the target.

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14 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

^has no idea how mechanics work.

How so? was anything i said wrong?   Or are you stating that mechanics should be that ap should not do damage to none armored ships?   If so why does HE do damage to armored ships?   I was simply stating how this game works. apparently you don't know how this game works.

Edited by WES_HoundDog

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Thank you for the replies. It would be nice if the wiki hinted at some of this. It spends a lot of words explaining  overmatch and ricochets, which I would think the topic of this thread should be a prerequisite for. 

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When a bounce can't happen, you still get 0-damage shatters if the shell doesn't have enough penetration.

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5 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

How so? was anything i said wrong?   Or are you stating that mechanics should be that ap should not do damage to none armored ships?   If so why does HE do damage to armored ships?   I was simply stating how this game works. apparently you don't know how this game works.

 

26 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

None armor penetrating HE shots pen bb armor all the time rofl!

HE does exactly 0 damage if it does not pen.

28 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

The programmers made it so the more armor you have, they more damage you take

no shells that penetrate a citadel do 100% listed damage, 33% on normal penetrations, and 10% on overpens. This is applicable for AP and HE (although HE by nature cannot overpen).

28 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

 I mean look at DD's, no citadels now they don;t want ap to do any damage to them because they have no armor

this doesnt warrant a written reply. just know that my disappointment is great...

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17 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

no shells that penetrate a citadel do 100% listed damage, 33% on normal penetrations, and 10% on overpens. This is applicable for AP and HE (although HE by nature cannot overpen).

I see where you were going with your response, but the way its worded...

A citadel penetration does 100% damage. (Of the given shell damage number) a pen anywhere else on the ship does a 33%, and 10% for the overpen

Since we are discussing the wiki page it is listed in the comparmentalization section bullet point 4.

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And I am sure WES was being sarcastic in his comments, but if not...just wow!

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1 hour ago, WES_HoundDog said:

The programmers made it so the more armor you have, they more damage you take.

Compare how much damage a Minotaur takes compared to how much damage a Stalingrad takes when being hit. 

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1 hour ago, wjp120 said:

I think I'm missing something in the ballistic mechanics of this game. I'm reading http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration and I don't see anything that says that different size AP shells and different thicknesses of armor behave any differently when a bounce can't happen.  Can the smallest AP penetrate the thickest armor at 90°? Or does this armor offer some extra protection against smaller shells? If not, is the only protection against small AP shells at 90° the fact that they have small damage and heavily armored ships have large HP pools?

Although it is not perhaps where you would expect it, going back and rereading HE and AP sections by where the tables are gives the details regarding determining penetration calculation, and angles of autobounce.

What is glanced over largely is explaining how trigonometry is used to determine the actual thickness of armor at any given angle, but that can be found via the search engine of your choice, and then for the calculations (If you dont have a scientific calculator) you can go to wolframalpha.com.

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1 hour ago, wjp120 said:

I think I'm missing something in the ballistic mechanics of this game. I'm reading http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration and I don't see anything that says that different size AP shells and different thicknesses of armor behave any differently when a bounce can't happen.  Can the smallest AP penetrate the thickest armor at 90°? Or does this armor offer some extra protection against smaller shells? If not, is the only protection against small AP shells at 90° the fact that they have small damage and heavily armored ships have large HP pools?

Wargaming does not release penetration data on the AP shells by default, only when they feature the ship on their YouTube channel do they give the penetration at 5km, 10km and 15km.

The penetration is a rather complex thing, and relies upon a number of factors. The most prominent being the shell mass, the velocity upon impact, the impact angle and the hardness of the shell, also named Krupp.

If you want a really really rough estimate for how the shells compare, use the formula for kinetic energy E = 1/2 m x v^2 so that you have the differences in kinetic energy of the shells. Note that this leaves out a few factors, but the general comparison is somewhat usable.

As for your question, no, Tachibana‘s AP shells will not penetrate Yamato‘s belt at any angle or range.

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1 hour ago, wjp120 said:

I think I'm missing something in the ballistic mechanics of this game. I'm reading http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration and I don't see anything that says that different size AP shells and different thicknesses of armor behave any differently when a bounce can't happen.  Can the smallest AP penetrate the thickest armor at 90°? Or does this armor offer some extra protection against smaller shells? If not, is the only protection against small AP shells at 90° the fact that they have small damage and heavily armored ships have large HP pools?

Basically, if an AP shell hits at exactly 90°, the game checks if the penatration of that shell at that range (the farther away the target is, the less speed and thus penatration the shell has) beats the armor thickness. If it does, the shell penatrates and the game then checks if the armor was thick enough to arm the shell. It gets more complex when you factor in internal armor schemes and such, but that's the basic idea.

Keep in mind, however, that a perfect 90° angle hit is very rare. Most ships don't have perfectly vertical hulls, and even then the shells are coming in at a downward angle.

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1 hour ago, mofton said:

No, the smallest AP can't penetrate the thickest armor, not even at 90°.

From reviewing the wiki, it doesn't state very explicitly that each gun/shell combination has a different armor penetration and that that effective penetration drops off with range. However, that is the case and penetration must beat armor thickness in order for penetration to succeed.

Armor penetration is typically given in millimeters and can be plotted as a curve. Several websites can show you the penetration curves of the various weapons in the game see - 

https://mustanghx.github.io/ship_ap_calculator/

https://wowsft.com/arty

To check if the armor will be penetrated, you need to know armor thickness, the angle of shell impact and the penetration value of the shell at the range it strikes the target.

WOW!!! I’ve been playing the game for almost a year so far and I had absolutely NO idea a website like the wowsft was available!!!! I can’t believe how I had no idea they made checking ships/rounds soooo much easier!!! Thank you for waiting till now to tell me mofton!!! LOL JK but for real thank you. 

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20 minutes ago, Paintpro_1 said:

WOW!!! I’ve been playing the game for almost a year so far and I had absolutely NO idea a website like the wowsft was available!!!! I can’t believe how I had no idea they made checking ships/rounds soooo much easier!!! Thank you for waiting till now to tell me mofton!!! LOL JK but for real thank you. 

WG is pretty stingy with the amount of info they put out. So player made resources like this crop up here and there.

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1 hour ago, c3shooter said:

I see where you were going with your response, but the way its worded...

A citadel penetration does 100% damage. (Of the given shell damage number) a pen anywhere else on the ship does a 33%, and 10% for the overpen

Since we are discussing the wiki page it is listed in the comparmentalization section bullet point 4.

Not even going to go into saturation. It's just a whole new can of worms

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2 hours ago, WES_HoundDog said:

Huh?     just know armor means basically nothing in this game.   None armor penetrating HE shots pen bb armor all the time rofl!

 

The programmers made it so the more armor you have, they more damage you take.   I mean look at DD's, no citadels now they don;t want ap to do any damage to them because they have no armor

What exactly did I just read? :cap_hmm:

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Keep in mind that a shell can also over penetrate the citadel, causing only 10% damage. 
EG: if you are in an Atlanta and you want to torp a Fuso 2km away from you have two options. You either angle for auto bounce, but this becomes tricky at super close range (at this range it becomes difficult to be at auto bounce angle for all the guns), or you show full broadside and go for over pens, because the flight time through your ship when broadside is less than the fuse time. Unless he shoots HE...

So the more angled you are the more time the enemy shell will spend time in your ship, increasing the chance to explode when it is in your citadel. This is also the reason why battleship AP can deal so much damage to destroyers when angled. The shell has time to explode within the ship, causing 33% damage. Ships like the Montana, many guns and good dispersion, just eat DDs.

Edited by LemonadeWarrior

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I've been summoned by @Hanger_18

All the information has already been given, people like @mofton also know how the game works.

But, to reillustrate:

  • AP shells go through a number of checks when they hit armor plate.

 

  1. Overmatch - if a shell's caliber is 14.3x the thickness of the armor plate, it'll just go through unimpeded. If this happens the game skips right to #5, fuse threshold
  2. Ricochet check - different AP shells have a different ricochet range, often between 45 and 65 degrees or 60 and 70 degrees. This is checked after normalization is done. If this happens the game simply skips the rest of the checks and returns 0 damage
  3. Normalization - IE, the shell pulls a few degrees towards the 90 degree 'normal' upon impact
  4. Penetration check - the game checks if the AP shell has sufficient penetration to go through the plate. For example, a 127mm AP shell at 10km range will not have the penetration to go through a 410mm armor belt
  5. Fuse threshold - different AP shells need to hit different thicknesses of plate in order for the fuse to trigger. If the fuse doesn't trigger, the shell doesn't explode and does 10% overpen damage at most

Now, our example shell hits the armor plate at 90 degrees, so the following happens:

  • Overmatch? If so, skip directly to Fuse Threshold and continue from there
  • Ricochet? No. The shell hit at 90 degrees, so it does not ricochet
  • Normalization? No. The shell hit at 90 degrees, so no normalization needs to happen
  • Penetration? Does the shell have enough mass, velocity and krupp to penetrate the armor? If so, continue. Otherwise, skip and return 'shatter' for 0 damage
  • Fuse threshold? Is the armor plate thick enough to trigger the fuse in the shell? Different calibers of AP shells have different fuse thresholds. For example, a 460mm AP shell's fuse will not trigger on a 16mm plate.

Here the checks branch, into fuse triggered yes or no:

  • If the fuse has triggered, the game checks where the shell is when the fuse burns through. Different AP shells have different fuse lengths - British AP for example tends to have shorter fuses than, say, Japanese AP.
  1. If the shell is inside the citadel of a ship when the fuse burns through the shell does 100% of its listed damage and returns a 'citadel' result
  2. If the shell is inside the hull or superstructure of the ship but outside the citadel when the fuse burns through the shell does 33% of its listed damage and returns a 'penetration' result
  3. If the shell has gone through the ship and exited out the other side when the fuse burns through the shell does 10% of its listed damage and returns an 'overpen' result
  4. If the shell is inside an external module like an AA mount, turret or torpedo launcher when the fuse burns through the shell does 0% of its listed damage to the target's hitpoints and returns a 'penetration' result. This concept confuses many people.

 

  • If the fuse has not triggered, the shell simply flies through and through the ship and does 10% of its listed damage and returns an 'overpen' result.

 

Keep in mind that a shell can encounter multiple layers of armor on its journey through a ship, and all these checks from Overmatch on will be done for each layer of armor the shell encounters. Obviously once a fuse is triggered the Fuse Threshold check will not be needed anymore. But it is entirely possible for a shell to, say, penetrate the outer layer of a ship's armor, trigger the fuse, ricochet off a ship's internal armor layout (for example, a turtleback armor scheme on a German BB) and explode inside the ship's hull, for 33% damage.

Also keep in mind that if a shell exits a ship - either because its fuse didn't trigger or didn't have time to burn through - the shell ceases to exist, so you can't overpenetrate one ship and hit the one behind it.

Hope this helps. I probably forgot some things.

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@Lert
I don't fully understand. A battleship overmatches a DD armour so it should do an over penetration, right? So does the shell fuse because it hits multiple compartments within the ship? If that is the case why don't they remove the triggering compartments than, but keep the separate hitboxes (sections)?

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1 hour ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

So does the shell fuse because it hits multiple compartments within the ship?

AFAIK plate thicknesses are not cumulative for purposes of fuse triggering. AFAIK a fuse triggers when it hits a singular plate of sufficient thickness to arm the fuse. So if a fuse needs 25mm to arm, it won't arm no matter how many 19mm plates it hits.

 

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37 minutes ago, Lert said:

AFAIK plate thicknesses are not cumulative for purposes of fuse triggering. AFAIK a fuse triggers when it hits a singular plate of sufficient thickness to arm the fuse. So if a fuse needs 25mm to arm, it won't arm no matter how many 19mm plates it hits.

 

But why do ap shells arm on destroyers when fired by a Yamato?
Thank you for your time in advance.

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9 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

But why do ap shells arm on destroyers when fired by a Yamato?

Because they hit a plate that arms the fuse.

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