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Purg473

G. Cesare/Roma

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As an opinion question, being as I don't have either one. With the Italian CA's being the final quarter ship line, I think...I was looking into acquiring a ship to work on an Italian commander, so I don't wind up starting with a 3 or so when the line hits. Is it worth waiting for the small chance the GC gets sold again, or is the Roma considered adequate enough for it's tier?

Thanks for any help with this.

Purg

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35 minutes ago, Purg473 said:

As an opinion question, being as I don't have either one. With the Italian CA's being the final quarter ship line, I think...I was looking into acquiring a ship to work on an Italian commander, so I don't wind up starting with a 3 or so when the line hits. Is it worth waiting for the small chance the GC gets sold again, or is the Roma considered adequate enough for it's tier?

Thanks for any help with this.

Purg

I've found the Roma to be a great ship. Most people complain about it having somewhat wonky dispersion and too much penetration and weak HE. beyond that, everything else is excellent

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I would recommend either the Duca d'Aosta or Duca degli Abruzzi over the Roma. For one they are cruisers and you can use your captain skills better in them, and for two, they play better and are more fun.

For its tier, d'Aosta is very good, Abruzzi can struggle a bit vs higher tiers.

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I think we're a long way from Italian ships. RN CVs and French DDs are first for sure. With the CV rework and maybe even subs, the Italians are at least a year probably more away.

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The RM CLs are good-looking, fast, and fragile. Giulio Cesare is not quite OP, but close, the best overall BB at T5/T6 that can hold her own against the fast T6s and T7s. Roma I do not have (and at 72$CDN unlikely to get). The two that I have are excellent trainers and decent credit makers once you learn how to play them.

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1 hour ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

The RM CLs are good-looking, fast, and fragile. Giulio Cesare is not quite OP, but close, the best overall BB at T5/T6 that can hold her own against the fast T6s and T7s. Roma I do not have (and at 72$CDN unlikely to get). The two that I have are excellent trainers and decent credit makers once you learn how to play them.

ROFL. Yes, a tier 5 BB that out performs pretty much all tier 6 and 7 bb's while having the worst tier abuse in the game certainly isn't op....:Smile_trollface:

Spoiler

MFJmVRK.png

They stealth removed it from the shop for a reason.....

Edited by awiggin

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Depends on whether you can play a premium light cruiser without IFHE or  a battleship without FP if you aren't willing to spend doubloons to respec.

Abruzzi can kind of pump out enough rounds to get some fires going with just straight DE build. However most players are so used to low fire chance on Italian cruisers they will rep quick. Usually only to have someone else start a fire before you can light the target up again. :cap_viking:

The other problem is the high drag on the shells and to get decent range for fire farming you have to give up dfaa for a spotter plane. If you aren't well versed in rainbow arcs and spotter planes this is not a good combo. To achieve the short range WG desires for Italian cruiser the ballistics get real wonky at the end of their firing range.


The 203/50 203/53 and possibly 203/55 will have a ~13% burn chance. Investing in DE might be worthwhile for the later tier heavy cruiser however the AP should be pretty darn good.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AT_D0e74CViSQMtaDYaW4H6X_feaDjq8x6c1l_v6Lf0/edit#gid=1403895320

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Thanks for all the suggestions folks. Regarding the RN CV's coming first...I thought I'd heard somewhere the last 2 quarters of this year was Brit DDs and the Italian CL/CA line...so we're going to be possibly seeing the Brit CV's first? Come to think of it, that would explain them teasing the tech tree on the dev blog.

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On 11/4/2018 at 6:08 AM, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

The RM CLs are good-looking, fast, and fragile. Giulio Cesare is not quite OP, but close, the best overall BB at T5/T6 that can hold her own against the fast T6s and T7s. Roma I do not have (and at 72$CDN unlikely to get). The two that I have are excellent trainers and decent credit makers once you learn how to play them.

Caesar is completely broken OP.

Spoiler

aTM5XMc.jpg

Even in Ranked, she was not only wildly popular, but a highly successful ship.

Spoiler

sF66iwl.jpg

 

She was the only ship to break 50k Dmg Avg in Ranked, not even the CVs did that.  Not only did she do tons of damage, she was one of the consistent winners in Ranked.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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The Roma is awesome.  I know people complain about her dispersion, but she has so many strengths going for her that it's not as bad as people make it out to be.  Strengths like:

  • Very high shell velocity means you're hitting pretty much every round, even if they are over pens
  • High citadel, but absolutely superb armor profile.  There's even this armor extension into the bow that helps reduce the potential for a Yamato/Musashi overmatch
  • Great speed and good agility.  The ship feels very agile and responsive
  • Excellent firing angles.  I think the rear turret is 31 degrees off the center line, which is great
  • 2nd best concealment at T8.  11.2km is no joke!
  • She's a surprisingly strong credit earner

As long as you manage your own expectations regarding the dispersion, the Roma is an amazing ship.  Seriously, she is so much fun, and I'm a brawling-first kinda player!  If you can pick her up, do it. 

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Cesare is a MUCH better ship at tier 5 than Roma is at tier 8.

That being said, I'm not sure either is good as a cruiser captain trainer.

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Thanks for the suggestions folks...with the Abruzzi coming back to the tech tree for doubloons, I took advantage to pick it up...that being said, either I'm playing this ship wrong, or...eh, I just hope I'm playing this ship wrong.

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Roma is about balanced for tier (maybe a little strong), GC is not really. But we don't know what the actual Italian BB line will be like yet.

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On 11/4/2018 at 12:32 AM, Purg473 said:

As an opinion question, being as I don't have either one. With the Italian CA's being the final quarter ship line, I think...I was looking into acquiring a ship to work on an Italian commander, so I don't wind up starting with a 3 or so when the line hits. Is it worth waiting for the small chance the GC gets sold again, or is the Roma considered adequate enough for it's tier?

Thanks for any help with this.

Purg

I would wait for the Cesare. I bought one i think off the Eu server premium shop couple months ago and i love it. Its the only Premium ship i spent money for and it came with 3 point captain. Best decision i ever made, it's a great ship. Average almost 60k battle damage, 1.5 ships sunk per game and even though my win rate is less than 50% it makes me alot of money even with just the 20% credit flag. It's a good mid to longer range shooter with usually good dispersion but the AP isnt very good at long ranges ive noticed. It has good fire chance without flags, its real fast for its tier pretty maneuverable and it's a smaller target than most BBs at that tier. I also don't mind being uptiered because 85% of the time you will be but the only negative thing about it is terrible AA. So of course Matchmaking 75% throws at least 1 usually 2 carriers in every random battle i am in which is strange because all my other T4-5-6-7ships hardly ever see a CV in randoms but this Cesare is a damm CV Magnet. Alot of the time it's the main reason for my teams collapse and my death. But besides the obvious WG MM [edited] i love the ship to death and its real fun and its real deadly. I dont have the Roma so i can't say anything besides what the Youtubers say so check them out for that info.

Edited by linusboy2118

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On 11/24/2018 at 2:43 PM, Purg473 said:

Thanks for the suggestions folks...with the Abruzzi coming back to the tech tree for doubloons, I took advantage to pick it up...that being said, either I'm playing this ship wrong, or...eh, I just hope I'm playing this ship wrong.

The ship is one giant citadel. Don't sail broadside to a battleship or heavy cruiser and the heal might be able to keep it alive.

Other than that, both premium Italian cruisers currently in the game are kinda shizer. Roma is ... not great. Only Cesare is worth getting.

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I have a 'love and hate' relationship with Roma, this ship have great front armor, good concealment (13km in my configuration), nice shell velocity, but this guns have same german dispersion pattern (sigma 1.80).

Gascogne and Roma keep same level of fun in my collection (tier 8 BBs).

GC is more ovepowered on overall

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On 12/3/2018 at 7:35 AM, Fernando_Maluco said:

I have a 'love and hate' relationship with Roma, this ship have great front armor, good concealment (13km in my configuration), nice shell velocity, but this guns have same german dispersion pattern (sigma 1.80).

Gascogne and Roma keep same level of fun in my collection (tier 8 BBs).

GC is more ovepowered on overall

Same here.   I love both the Roma and Gascogne.    I wish Gascogne had the Roma's nose armor, and I wish Roma had Gasgogne's secondary gun range.     Fun ships.   

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If Roma had more consistent guns she'd be a terror in Tier VIII.

iEUAvm3.jpg

I contrast AP Penetration capability between Roma, NC, and Richelieu.

NC has 406mm guns and those heavy USN BB AP shells.  She's respected for very good Penetration values.

Richelieu sports 380mm guns, but the French 380s have outstanding penetration capabilities as you can see.

Roma has better AP Pen capability than the USN 16"/45 and French 380mm AP shells.  But again, her wild gunnery makes it frustrating to truly leverage this power.  You also Overpen like crazy on Cruisers.  But against Battleships, if you can hit them, you will demand respect with the Italian 381mm AP shells.

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On 11/26/2018 at 12:32 PM, KaptainKaybe said:

Roma is ... not great.

Roma is fine...if you know what you're doing. Plenty of people don't.

If she got her accuracy buffed, she'd be straightout OP against other BBs, like @hazegreyunderweigh points out with the comparison. Even with the overpen issues I delete cruisers occasionally with her, some under 10km where you would think you wouldn't be able to cit them.

Edited by MnemonScarlet

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13 hours ago, MnemonScarlet said:

Roma is fine...if you know what you're doing. Plenty of people don't.

If she got her accuracy buffed, she'd be straightout OP against other BBs, like @hazegreyunderweigh points out with the comparison. Even with the overpen issues I delete cruisers occasionally with her, some under 10km where you would think you wouldn't be able to cit them.

So here's the thing. All ships have pros and cons that highlight a specific playstyle. The more pros you have compared to cons, the better the ship is able to adapt to different scenarios. Roma's problem is she is highly dependent on a small number of pros, whereas she's hosed whenever her cons come into play.

Let's look at her notable pros:
- Great Stealth
- Great armor layout to defend against HE (also a con, see below).

This means that in a match where her concealment can be maintained, AND where she can place herself in a flanking position where she can use cover or angling to protect her sides, AND where she has an escape plan where she is able to disengage without taking fire, then Roma is pretty good. Not great as her highly inaccurate guns means a game changing kill can be denied because of not only extremely bad dispersion, but also a tendency to overpen a lot due to her shell velocity. That being said, that same great shell velocity means enemy ships can't easily dodge, resulting in quite a few hits. And in fact, I believe her hit percentage overall is quite high. But what's not shown is how many of those hits are overpens or bounces. Can Roma citadel the ever living bejesus out of Yamato at max range? Certainly! But then again, so can many other BBs.

Now, here are her cons:
- Miserably easy to hit citadel as it's massive and above the waterline.
- Poor armor layout so that shells hitting her upper belt can still citadel this ship due to Roma's armor spacing
- Very poor AA at longer ranges. Carriers can keep Roma spotted indefinitely.
- No secondaries really worth mentioning.
- That same HE shattering upper belt armor means AP shells will fuse most easily when hitting there. This is the same exact problem German BBs (and other BBs like the Hood) have ... except that many of those ships also have very tough to hit citadels as they tend to be either submerged or behind a turtleback. Roma on the other hand takes brutal citadel damage on top of all the regular AP damage it can take for regular penetrations. And due to her piss poor armor layout, even lower caliber shells can rip out massive AP chunks out of this ship.

So in the end, here's a list of all the issues with Roma:

- If it's in a match with carriers, it's f***ed. Proper f***ed. Carriers can keep it permaspotted, so bye bye concealment advantage. Carriers can strike it with impunity due to that weak AA.
- If Roma is forced to disengage when spotted, it has no choice but to disengage by slowing backing up. If it *ever* turns and shows its side, it can *easily* lose two thirds of more of it's HP within seconds. This is actually the same problem Yamato has ... except Yamato makes up for it by having truly scary and reliable guns.
- If DDs get close, Roma's lack of secondaries and exceptionally bad HE means it's very dead.
- 15 inch guns can't hurt USN or German heavy cruisers ... and they still have a 30 second reload.
- While it's forward guns angles are solid, it's rear angles are HORRIBLE. Worse than Vanguard's. So quite simply, this ship cannot kite. At all. It either needs to be played aggressively, or it needs to wait for an opportunity to go dark and then reposition.

So what you end up with is a VERY situational ship that always has to be played in a very precise and situational way ... and that crumbles the moment the enemy can trump Roma's pros. Keep DDs or carrier planes nearby and Roma can't disengage and has to stay where it is or risk deletion. In fact, DDs and carrier planes trump this ship really hard. As do USN and German heavy cruisers. As do good BB captains who can patiently wait for Roma to angle out just a little too much and then do devastating damage to it by aiming halfway up the hull.

People complain about Hood a lot, but Hood at least is dependable. It's citadel sits below the waterline, so while Hood can take some big hits when disengaging, it's nowhere near as bad as what Roma suffers. Hood's guns are also much more consistent. Hood's AA, if it can keep the rockets alive, is much better at defending itself. And Hood is faster and has significantly better rear gun angles, so it's also much much better at tanking. And I will always pick Hood over Roma as the latter involves too much stress ensuring a perfect positioning whereas Hood allows me to disengage easily if I make a mistake.

So really ... why would anyone choose Roma over any number of more reliable tier 8 battleships? Other than taking advantage of the high potato count in Randoms where many players don't know how to take advantage of Roma's many weaknesses. I can't see this ship being very good in competitive matches where players know what they are doing.

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1 hour ago, KaptainKaybe said:

- If it's in a match with carriers, it's f***ed. Proper f***ed. Carriers can keep it permaspotted, so bye bye concealment advantage. Carriers can strike it with impunity due to that weak AA.

In a match with CVs, I only really worry if it's T10 CVs or it's something with AP bombs. I run full AA build Roma, though, which makes her AA quite nasty. As for what the rework will bring, we'll have to see that since a lot of BBs will potentially have issues there. But in the last few months I have not really had issues with CVs in mine.

1 hour ago, KaptainKaybe said:

- If Roma is forced to disengage when spotted, it has no choice but to disengage by slowing backing up. If it *ever* turns and shows its side, it can *easily* lose two thirds of more of it's HP within seconds. This is actually the same problem Yamato has ... except Yamato makes up for it by having truly scary and reliable guns.

The citadel is nowhere near as high as Yamato's, but no battleship wants to turn out in front of someone's guns. You can easily citadel most of them so the height is immaterial unless it's way underwater like a certain selection of BBs. And for guns, what Yamato really brings to the table is that juicy overmatch, which I'll mention later. BB gunnery is an RNG-slot-machine experience, where having good aim/target selection/timing is only part of it. The best shots can derp wildly in any BB and screw you over. I've had plenty of moments in my Yamato where I just got a bad dispersion roll and couldn't punish the obvious misplay in front of me.

1 hour ago, KaptainKaybe said:

- If DDs get close, Roma's lack of secondaries and exceptionally bad HE means it's very dead.

This is something that changed from before. Before, when full AP pens were a thing, I would rush most DDs. It was ludicrously easy to just full-pen them to death, and the guns were so fast they didn't have much ability to dodge. Roma is pretty maneuverable for a BB so it's not hard to dodge their torps either - if one or two hit you and you made sure it was the belt, your disgustingly high TDS value would cut a lot of the damage off of it. Now you don't get to dump easy damage on them like before and just delete them from existence, but the rest hasn't changed.

The HE yeah, it's horrible. Even bad Romas I run into almost never use it. WG just needs to give the ship her proper SAP shell.

1 hour ago, KaptainKaybe said:

- 15 inch guns can't hurt USN or German heavy cruisers ... and they still have a 30 second reload.

Now this is the big drawback. I played Roma for a ranked season and getting bullied out of a cap by a Eugen wasn't fun. The 27mm bow immunity to her guns isn't completely unmanagable (I shoot out USN cruiser turrets), but against ships with torps you never want to get in that position. USN heavy cruisers I don't really care about...if they get close they're the ones who die, not me (unless already low on hp), as they don't have torpedoes and you can usually delete them unless RNG really decides you should miss.

1 hour ago, KaptainKaybe said:

- While it's forward guns angles are solid, it's rear angles are HORRIBLE. Worse than Vanguard's. So quite simply, this ship cannot kite. At all. It either needs to be played aggressively, or it needs to wait for an opportunity to go dark and then reposition.

I can't say much to that, it hasn't ever really been an issue for me. The big issue I've run into is her rear barbette being so exposed, which makes running away risky if people actually try to shoot it. But Roma is a positional abuse ship, that's what she does well at. She's not a bow on ship (which is a tactic I find very boring anyway), she takes advantage of holes in the red team deployment.

Which comes to why I like the Roma: she works very well in uptiers, provided you keep mindful of what she's good at. The better armor of high tier cruisers just means you citadel them even more easily - the only DDs BB AP can fullpen left in the game are also at T10. Roma's armor is actually pretty good, I routinely bounce Yamatos with it at most ranges; the only T10 I'm really afraid of is Republique due to her AP's performance, it's very fast and keeps pen well over long range, which means if you get caught out some Repub sitting somewhere can just cit you pretty easily. I like to flash my broadside at BBs (good ones included) who think it'll be an easy citadel and then quickly turn in to take heat off of cruisers on my team, if you have some range it's pretty easy to pull off.

Is Roma the best for a comp mode? Nope. But that's because overbuffed ships like Alabama and Massachusetts exist. If you just want to win Ranked games in a BB, those two are easily the best for T8 ranked. Otherwise aside from the overmatch issue with torpedo cruisers, Roma is not a bad Ranked pick - there are worse T8 BBs to bring than her. She's not low skill floor, but if you know what you're doing she'll do pretty well. Her accuracy at most ranges is equal to or better than Amagi (the Amagi only gains a slight advantage around 17km), and no one complains about Amagi's guns being inaccurate, the real issue is her MV which makes overpens of soft targets more likely. But to make up for that, you can quickly hit cruisers at range who think they can run for islands safely - I've deleted a few who thought they'd be able to get behind one and heal up just because the AP is so quick. But is Roma a fun Randoms ship? Definitely. If you can make her work.

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If WG would lower the timer fuse to her AP shells I would not be seeing "over-pen" Sigma is fine with me.

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