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Counter_Gambit

My Thoughts on Submarines

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I find them quite enjoyable, but also a pain in the rear.

I don't have Killer Whale yet (can't wait until I have her, I hear she is hilariously OP, which would explain the 50,000 experience requirement).

Anyway;

Zipper Sub: worst submarine in my opinion. Very long torpedo reload, and only freezing torpedoes to use. With a name like Zipper, one would expect it to be a very fast submarine, but no, it only goes 24 knots, while the fastest is 31 knots (not sure on Killer Whale yet, and don't tell me, I want it to be a surprise). Though I guess it gets its name from the fact that it is the fastest at diving and surfacing, making it easier to get out of danger in some case.

Barracuda: Those Secondaries, MMMM, lovely. Though I find it weird that you can sit yourself at periscope depth stealth, and still fire off those secondaries, if you hit the dive and surface keys properly. Though only for a limited time because that still uses oxygen. Largest oxygen reserves, makes for some nice getaways. Second favorite submarine right here.

Gerfalcon: Fastest Submarine at 31 knots, 2 sets of torpedo tubes in the rear. I occasionally find those rear facing tubes to be a pain, but also times where I find them quite pleasurable. Currently my favorite submarine of the lot.

Seelöwe: Third favorite submarine of the lot. Though I don't play it as often as I do my first and second favorite subs. The rate in which I kill ships when I do play her, is quite nice though.


As for submarines as a whole, I do feel like something is missing, but I just don't know what that is. Maybe a consumable, but I don't know what consumable these could be given.

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25 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

As for submarines as a whole, I do feel like something is missing, but I just don't know what that is. Maybe a consumable, but I don't know what consumable these could be given.

What is missing is creeping up on your target while trying to be quiet as a church mouse and then letting your shots off at your targets. While they are great fun in the alternate Earth of the scenario these are not anything like the subs of the era the game covers..

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I have yet to do any damage with secondaries to the stupid ballistas and crapapults. Ships be different.

The 'win one for the Zipper' is what I figured subs would be rolled out as. Shocked with the starter I had(Barracuda).

So far the Seelowe Green is my go-to, only because I fail-built the first one by not taking T4 concealment since it recommended against it.

The Grumblefalcon/Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfalcon I only play as a destroyer, again with concealment. Get in range, fire the fronts, turn yer but around at the edge of spotting and spam them torps.

Only halfway to the killer whale.

As much as I don't want to be an alarmist or an over-reacting jackwagon, I hope any potential/future development is modeled more closely to the zipper than the others with a  slower oxygen regen. Every other sandwich than the Zipper was effortless.(granted most of the targets in the operation are low to mid tier).

I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally hope hard mode changes things.

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8 hours ago, Counter_Gambit said:

I find them quite enjoyable, but also a pain in the rear.

I don't have Killer Whale yet (can't wait until I have her, I hear she is hilariously OP, which would explain the 50,000 experience requirement).

Anyway;

Zipper Sub: worst submarine in my opinion. Very long torpedo reload, and only freezing torpedoes to use. With a name like Zipper, one would expect it to be a very fast submarine, but no, it only goes 24 knots, while the fastest is 31 knots (not sure on Killer Whale yet, and don't tell me, I want it to be a surprise). Though I guess it gets its name from the fact that it is the fastest at diving and surfacing, making it easier to get out of danger in some case.

Barracuda: Those Secondaries, MMMM, lovely. Though I find it weird that you can sit yourself at periscope depth stealth, and still fire off those secondaries, if you hit the dive and surface keys properly. Though only for a limited time because that still uses oxygen. Largest oxygen reserves, makes for some nice getaways. Second favorite submarine right here.

Gerfalcon: Fastest Submarine at 31 knots, 2 sets of torpedo tubes in the rear. I occasionally find those rear facing tubes to be a pain, but also times where I find them quite pleasurable. Currently my favorite submarine of the lot.

Seelöwe: Third favorite submarine of the lot. Though I don't play it as often as I do my first and second favorite subs. The rate in which I kill ships when I do play her, is quite nice though.


As for submarines as a whole, I do feel like something is missing, but I just don't know what that is. Maybe a consumable, but I don't know what consumable these could be given.

The SUB game presently has lots of things missing...it is for now just a test bed to test the basic functions of operations and were talking REAL BASICs here.  There is no real offense or good marksmanship to sink/damage you. Its just there to make you think you can survive so you can experience what little it can. Basically a arcade shooter on level one.  But there will be many mods and functions added as we go here. Not only that you have to think of what mods will be added on the surface ships to counter Subs.  Then it will not be so easy for Subs to get easy damage points as it is now.   I stopped playing subs a couple of days ago as there is nothing to discover anymore. When you get some real opponents then its a competition but for now..this is shooting fish in a bucket.  

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Just think if they put them in the game the top speed is 16 knots for a ww2 Sub. Not a Fan.

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We really appreciate the feedback!  A lot of you have been playing this week and it's been insightful watching the different ways everyone is using these subs.  While the Seelowe has been my go-to, I've seen some incredible action from some of you in the Zipper.  There really is a variety of options and we're interested how everyone fares in hard mode. 

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2 hours ago, dionkraft said:

The SUB game presently has lots of things missing...it is for now just a test bed to test the basic functions of operations and were talking REAL BASICs here.

This is why I am choosing to be VERY forgiving with any flaws the submarines have at the moment, and why I don't really care if the op is ridiculously easy. Right now I think they need to be confined strictly to operations and not allowed out in PvP play, but in the long term I think they will be a refreshing addition to the game. They are certainly a great change of pace, and the only downside is that I'm so busy with the other tasks in the Cossack grind that I don't have time to do the subs justice. There's too much pressure to get the stars so that everyone else gets them as well; I don't have time to just derp around, take stupid risks and learn their play-style in the school of hard knocks.

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4 hours ago, Raven114 said:

Just think if they put them in the game the top speed is 16 knots for a ww2 Sub. Not a Fan.

Honestly if they got to keep their current sub speed or at least most of that speed I would be ok with it since once you get human players gunning for those subs they will be balanced out for their speed and Torps by being shelled, torpedoed, and depth charged to death.

I have experimentally been putting my subs into situations in the Scenerio where I get various distances from where I know Depth Charges will likely drop so I can judge Damage output on them. And I am approving of the damage not only innthe area of initial boat but also the shockwave that travels out fair distance from the initial explosion and can cause damage just like in real life. And I can imagine what will happen if all the depth charge launchers and racks become functional onnships what being a sub will face.

And I am thinking of not only what a sub player will have to face, but also the surface ships I like using so not having subs too OP is a consideration, but since I will be wanting subs added to my port I will want subs not to be too underpowered either.

 

Subs may seem overpowered to some, but the fact they get max torp range of 8km, but really only effective at 5km or less will mean they have to get in hydro danger zone and once detected enemy ships will not hesitate to unload a lot of Depth Charges. And considering current state of subs they likely will not get to carry combat enhancing signal flags either.

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Nice write up. +1

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3 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

This is why I am choosing to be VERY forgiving with any flaws the submarines have at the moment, and why I don't really care if the op is ridiculously easy. Right now I think they need to be confined strictly to operations and not allowed out in PvP play, but in the long term I think they will be a refreshing addition to the game. They are certainly a great change of pace, and the only downside is that I'm so busy with the other tasks in the Cossack grind that I don't have time to do the subs justice. There's too much pressure to get the stars so that everyone else gets them as well; I don't have time to just derp around, take stupid risks and learn their play-style in the school of hard knocks.

This also shows that without excessive buffs they will be next to useless. I highly doubt they will prove workable in a PvP environment.

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8 hours ago, J30_Reinhardt said:

I have yet to do any damage with secondaries to the stupid ballistas and crapapults. Ships be different.

The 'win one for the Zipper' is what I figured subs would be rolled out as. Shocked with the starter I had(Barracuda).

So far the Seelowe Green is my go-to, only because I fail-built the first one by not taking T4 concealment since it recommended against it.

The Grumblefalcon/Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfalcon I only play as a destroyer, again with concealment. Get in range, fire the fronts, turn yer but around at the edge of spotting and spam them torps.

Only halfway to the killer whale.

As much as I don't want to be an alarmist or an over-reacting jackwagon, I hope any potential/future development is modeled more closely to the zipper than the others with a  slower oxygen regen. Every other sandwich than the Zipper was effortless.(granted most of the targets in the operation are low to mid tier).

I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally hope hard mode changes things.

Can't wait for Hard Mode.

As for secondaries, yeah, all secondaries on submarines should be single barrel, or non-existent. Not all submarines had a deck gun, but a good chunk of WW2 submarines did. The largest deck gun on a submarine being an 8" cannon, on the French Submarine.
 

6 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

This also shows that without excessive buffs they will be next to useless. I highly doubt they will prove workable in a PvP environment.

I'd be more than happy to allow same surface and underwater speed, for submarines, that way they aren't horribly hindered underwater.

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Thanks for sharing.

I think the Zipper's strength is not just the vertical speed but the crazy quick air-resupply rate. You can get really close to enemy targets, surface for one second, dive to periscope to send a "dodge-this"-rated torpedo salvo, and then dive further to avoid incoming fire, both friendly and enemy. 

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I quite like the subs (all I've played since released), while I agree there is a long road ahead for them I think they are a great addition to the game.

Now I happen to agree with CC Jive Turkey, give us a few more operations with subs, so they can continue to be tuned and people get used to them... they might never see PvP (randoms), not sure if they can be balanced for fleet action (I'm willing to try it though).

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I'm wondering if the SUB can do "Silent Running" mode. meaning:

Silent running is a stealth mode of operation for naval submarines. The aim is to evade discovery by passive sonar by eliminating superfluous noise: nonessential systems are shut down, the crew is urged to rest and refrain from making any unnecessary sound, and speed is greatly reduced to minimize propeller noise.

Now of course some games had it as if enabled the SUB would gradually SINK....so its limited as you can see.   But on the other hand some games had it so it stayed level not sinking nor surfacing slowly...WOW would have to choose this reality if its a condition in game play. 

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On 11/2/2018 at 1:14 PM, Counter_Gambit said:


I'd be more than happy to allow same surface and underwater speed, for submarines, that way they aren't horribly hindered underwater.

If you do that... then they are not WW1/WW2 era submarines. 

 

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18 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

If you do that... then they are not WW1/WW2 era submarines. 

 

It's not like any other ship type has massive buffs to make them playable... Oh wait, all the ships do. Unlimited torpedoes when destroyers, except majority of IJN DDs, only had one per tube.

All them paper ships that never existed, some I can't even find except for WoWS websites.

Battleship having boosted accuracy.

Gun turret traverse speed being boosted on some ships to make them more comfortable.

Radar that goes through islands...

So yeah, keep talking specific era, because the only thing even remotely remnant about that era, is the design of the ships that did indeed exist, and that's about it. It's an Arcade Game, not a Simulator. BALANCE TRUMPS REALISM!

For subs to be even remotely viable in randoms, you have to give them something, or else they will simply not work at all.

But if you know me, from the other threads concerning subs: they have own game mode, and shouldn't be in random.

However, I like to think myself as having a more realistic outlook on things, and the realistic outlook: WG wants subs in random one day, we going to get subs in random.

Which means figuring out how to get them to work, and be comfortable, and not unfun to play.

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Are there any ships in the game currently that have 2 to 3 times their historical speed? 

Or 2 to 3 times the armor?

Or 2 to 3 times the range, or ROF?

 

There is literally no way to make submarines fun to play AND fun to play against in the framework of this game.  It is absolutely impossible.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

It's not like any other ship type has massive buffs to make them playable... Oh wait, all the ships do. Unlimited torpedoes when destroyers, except majority of IJN DDs, only had one per tube.

All them paper ships that never existed, some I can't even find except for WoWS websites.

Battleship having boosted accuracy.

Gun turret traverse speed being boosted on some ships to make them more comfortable.

Radar that goes through islands...

So yeah, keep talking specific era, because the only thing even remotely remnant about that era, is the design of the ships that did indeed exist, and that's about it. It's an Arcade Game, not a Simulator. BALANCE TRUMPS REALISM!

For subs to be even remotely viable in randoms, you have to give them something, or else they will simply not work at all.

But if you know me, from the other threads concerning subs: they have own game mode, and shouldn't be in random.

However, I like to think myself as having a more realistic outlook on things, and the realistic outlook: WG wants subs in random one day, we going to get subs in random.

Which means figuring out how to get them to work, and be comfortable, and not unfun to play.

Your right about that...Subs will have attributes which seemingly would look impossible but as you said..the other ships themselves are not exactly rooted in reality so we have to be a little inventive as to what SUBs can do to promote fair gameplay and most of all - FUN!   Now what would that be would be quite a list I am sure LOL!   But hey...its gonna happen..some may seem outlandish but then again..lets compare with other ships...we have to be fair don't we. ??

I can see something like  EXTRA Oxygen Booster, Torpedo Booster, Speedier DIVE and Surface, Concealment expert, Rudder shift, Speed boost,  Upgrade deck gun,  Upgrade damage torpedos,  Better Hull upgrade,  Upgrade propulsion, etc. 

AND if they have SUBS with plane storage capacity then the SUB can spot as well...only deal is that the SUB would have to surface to pick them up and store them.  

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14 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Are there any ships in the game currently that have 2 to 3 times their historical speed? 

Or 2 to 3 times the armor?

Or 2 to 3 times the range, or ROF?

 

There is literally no way to make submarines fun to play AND fun to play against in the framework of this game.  It is absolutely impossible.

 

 

We can't dwell on historical values as this is a game and even as a game we are pretty liberal with what most functions are to promote game play.  In the end WOW will have to decide what values will be used after testing to insure we have some semblance of "balance' and fairness....now those two words don't always mean the same when asked to the player public but some value has to be tried and go from there no matter how some may feel its totally out of bounds. 

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The Zipper is horrible single launchers that take 40 seconds to reload but also the slowest torps as well, it has the lowest health, and it has the lowest oxygen too. The seelowe is decent but its detection is kinda meh. The Cuda is a solidid tank sub and it secondaries are fun. I like the Gerfalcon but find that the opportunity to use its rear launchers i rare until the end of the op.

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On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 12:04 AM, BrushWolf said:

What is missing is creeping up on your target while trying to be quiet as a church mouse and then letting your shots off at your targets. While they are great fun in the alternate Earth of the scenario these are not anything like the subs of the era the game covers..

 You don't seem to be very informed about traditional sub warfare up until nuclear subs, subs did not spend much time creeping up on ships to release torpedoes. Their very limited battery time and 5-7 knot speed under water meant unless they were evading a surface warship they spent their time on the surface though usually attacking at night.  Sub ace Otto Kretschmer favorite tactic was killing convoy ships at on the surface from within the convoy.

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3 minutes ago, misanthrope0 said:

 You don't seem to be very informed about traditional sub warfare up until nuclear subs, subs did not spend much time creeping up on ships to release torpedoes. Their very limited battery time and 5-7 knot speed under water meant unless they were evading a surface warship they spent their time on the surface though usually attacking at night.  Sub ace Otto Kretschmer favorite tactic was killing convoy ships at on the surface from within the convoy.

Submerged endurance.

Gato class 48 hours at 2 knots.

Type 7 20 hours at 4 knots.

Yes they really did spend hours getting into position.

That tactic of night surface attack which was favored by all of the aces during the Happy Time very quickly became non-tenable because of radar which at the beginning of the war was mostly limited to BB's and BC's. By the time the US entered the war it was already being mounted on DD's. Because of that radar they switched to daytime attacks so they could see the escort ships.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

Submerged endurance.

Gato class 48 hours at 2 knots.

Type 7 20 hours at 4 knots.

Yes they really did spend hours getting into position.

That tactic of night surface attack which was favored by all of the aces during the Happy Time very quickly became non-tenable because of radar which at the beginning of the war was mostly limited to BB's and BC's. By the time the US entered the war it was already being mounted on DD's. Because of that radar they switched to daytime attacks so they could see the escort ships.

The above stats are way too slow and are theoretical results not actual. Battery strength depended on a lot of things including how old the batterys were, etc.  And 2-4 knots is way too slow to get into position to hit anything. Typically if they attacked at day time they had to approach from the front on the surface to within a distance they risked getting spotted then submerged and get lucky. Unlike a T5 WOS BB driver surface ships changed course and speed to zig zag which meant you really needed to be close and fire a full spread. The period that you described when centimetric radar breakthrough using the cavity gravitron, german sub success was already on the downswing and more because of air cover having covered the black gap finally drove germans off the surface and drove sub losses up. In the Pacific Americans pretty much enjoyed a happy time the whole war after they got their torpedo problems worked out. Attacked mostly from the surface and up until they pulled main guns off subs were just as likely to shell a lone ship to save torpedoes.

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27 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Are there any ships in the game currently that have 2 to 3 times their historical speed? 

Or 2 to 3 times the armor?

Or 2 to 3 times the range, or ROF?

 

There is literally no way to make submarines fun to play AND fun to play against in the framework of this game.  It is absolutely impossible.

 

 

Battleships with 17% hit rate isn't at all realistic... just an FYI!

The distances in which we fight also isn't at all realistic. Realism takes a side-seat to balance. And if that means a submarine is able to go 3 times faster underwater than it should, for the sake of making the ship fun to play, and give it some balance, if they ever come to randoms, which they likely will, I am perfectly capable of accepting it.

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22 minutes ago, misanthrope0 said:

The above stats are way too slow and are theoretical results not actual. Battery strength depended on a lot of things including how old the batterys were, etc.  And 2-4 knots is way too slow to get into position to hit anything. Typically if they attacked at day time they had to approach from the front on the surface to within a distance they risked getting spotted then submerged and get lucky. Unlike a T5 WOS BB driver surface ships changed course and speed to zig zag which meant you really needed to be close and fire a full spread. The period that you described when centimetric radar breakthrough using the cavity gravitron, german sub success was already on the downswing and more because of air cover having covered the black gap finally drove germans off the surface and drove sub losses up. In the Pacific Americans pretty much enjoyed a happy time the whole war after they got their torpedo problems worked out. Attacked mostly from the surface and up until they pulled main guns off subs were just as likely to shell a lone ship to save torpedoes.

What they would do is make an end around on the surface to get in front of a convoy and as that convoy would approach they would dive and creep in. Between the end around and the final approach they would spend hours. It was easier for the US subs to work on the surface because of the poor quality of the IJN radar and sonar but once again they would spend hours getting into position. The reason the guns were removed was to increase the AA as even as the war wound down planes were their biggest threat.

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