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Poll - Excluding CV, what ship type influences a win the most?

What ship type influences a win the most?  

147 members have voted

  1. 1. What ship type influences a win the most in a Random Battle?

    • Battleships
      12
    • Cruisers
      10
    • Destroyers
      122
    • I do not play Random Battles / I do not know (Bacon)
      2
  2. 2. What ship type influences a win the most in a Ranked Battle?

    • Battleships
      9
    • Cruisers
      17
    • Destroyers
      101
    • I do not play Ranked Battles / I do not know (Bacon)
      19
  3. 3. What ship type influences a win the most in a Clan Battle?

    • Battleships
      9
    • Cruisers
      26
    • Destroyers
      55
    • I do not play Clan Battles / I do not know (Bacon)
      56

65 comments in this topic

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I have been pondering this question for quite some time now, and I'm interested in hearing the community's response.  

I believe that Destroyers have the most influence over all three battle types.  This is due to the nature how a battle plays out, more than the actual class itself.  I think the ability to spot and contest caps, while remaining virtually unseen, is extremely powerful.  Let me know why you believe what you do, but please, keep it civil.

Edited by XpliCT_
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A well played DD has the most impact on a win based on the ability to secure objectives and provide vision for the bigger guns.  DD’s also are wonderful at slowing a push with the threat of torpedoes.

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Without CV as an option.....

DD is like 80% a determine factor at random and ranks.

In Clan battle though, I'll say BB is the most important since there is too many radars there.(some clan don't even brings a DD)

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The shortest answer is the CV.  Within the context of your poll as a general it is the DD, however the much more lengthy and nuanced answer is, it depends upon the circumstances.

 

Each ship class provides influence on the battle in different manners due to their strengths, which in turn are then further filtered by the exact ship strengths and those of the enemy, as well as their team's composition.  This further is broken down by the individual player, not just their own skill but their play style and how it interacts with their teammate's and matches their opponents.

 

In other words, a ninja boat DD influence in a match with a CV, and a half dozen radar cruisers per side is pretty minimal most times.   Even worse in standard or epicenter.  However in that set same match a cap contestor DD could take epicenter and solo win the game.   Whereas their ninja boat counter part had no such opportunity to do so.   Thus influence is not evenly distributed simply by ship type.  

 

Even further in say a domination map, a DD could be a capping machine, spot or kill all enemy DDs, but if the enemy cruisers are DPM monsters, then even if they are never seen or hit, they still are going to lose.   Thus in that situation the most influential ship type was the DPM ships.   

 

Overall DDs seem to have the most opportunities to provide influence as a general rule.   However they are also the lowest surviving.    

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I only play random battles, but DDs by far. Spotting, capping, area denial, and sinking other DDs (to deny spotting, capping, and area denial to the enemy). That wins games. Cruisers that can effectively hunt DDs are also quite influential, because they are killing DDs. The least influential are the long-range, damage farming cruisers, because it takes a long time for them to do enough damage with their DPM to decisively influence a match.

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1 minute ago, SyndicatedINC said:

The shortest answer is the CV.  Within the context of your poll as a general it is the DD, however the much more lengthy and nuanced answer is, it depends upon the circumstances.

 

4 minutes ago, sapient007 said:

Without CV as an option.....

Edited the title to exclude CV.  I didn't add them, because that choice was relatively obvious, and with the rework, I figured it wasn't appropriate to add them.  

 

2 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

Each ship class provides influence on the battle in different manners due to their strengths, which in turn are then further filtered by the exact ship strengths and those of the enemy, as well as their team's composition.  This further is broken down by the individual player, not just their own skill but their play style and how it interacts with their teammate's and matches their opponents.

 

In other words, a ninja boat DD influence in a match with a CV, and a half dozen radar cruisers per side is pretty minimal most times.   Even worse in standard or epicenter.  However in that set same match a cap contestor DD could take epicenter and solo win the game.   Whereas their ninja boat counter part had no such opportunity to do so.   Thus influence is not evenly distributed simply by ship type.  

 

Even further in say a domination map, a DD could be a capping machine, spot or kill all enemy DDs, but if the enemy cruisers are DPM monsters, then even if they are never seen or hit, they still are going to lose.   Thus in that situation the most influential ship type was the DPM ships.   

 

Overall DDs seem to have the most opportunities to provide influence as a general rule.   However they are also the lowest surviving.    

I would agree with that general premise, although I think you need vision to win the DPM battle, and nothing provides vision like a DD.  

Speaking as to why DDs are the lowest surviving class, I believe that's due to their roles on a team.  They're normally put into positions where you can be shot by most, if not all of the ships that are in your vicinity, and they don't have the health or armor to escape with minimal damage.  In order for a DD to get spotted though, a mistake must be made somewhere along the line, and that's where the skill curve comes in.  A good player can both minimize their mistakes, and minimize their exposure to damage, after committing that mistake.  It's a tough predicament to balance for, because giving the class as a whole more survivability could backfire and make them very powerful, albeit, still in the right hands.  

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19 minutes ago, XpliCT_ said:

I have been pondering this question for quite some time now, and I'm interested in hearing the community's response.  

I believe that Destroyers have the most influence over all three battle types.  This is due to the nature how a battle plays out, more than the actual class itself.  I think the ability to spot and contest caps, while remaining virtually unseen, is extremely powerful.  Let me know why you believe what you do, but please, keep it civil.

The biggest problem is the DD babies were never satisfied with being the most influential ship on the game. They cried and wined that they should be able to do as much damage as a battleship each and every game. If you pointed out that they have little pop guns and 2 minute torpedo reloads they would throw themselves on the floor and roll around kicking their feet and hitting the ground with their fists. Whaaaaa Whaaaaa Whaaaaaa this isn't a simulation they would cry. We should be able to do as much damage as a battleship every game for balance they would cry.

 

I blame Wargaming for their stupid scoring system that doesn't really reward players for doing tasks that destroyers were supposed to do. If destroyers scored all their points for capping and spotting maybe the DD babies wouldn't cry so much....but I doubt it. 

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17 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

I blame Wargaming for their stupid scoring system that doesn't really reward players for doing tasks that destroyers were supposed to do. If destroyers scored all their points for capping and spotting maybe the DD babies wouldn't cry so much....but I doubt it. 

It would be the same as the BB mains crying about fire damage.  Or the CA mains crying about being blapped for showing a broadside.  

Everyone has something to complain about, be it right or wrong.  I do think DD scoring needs a definite revamp though.  

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Destroyers without doubt. Team with the most skilled DD's likely to win. Not a sure thing but a serious factor.

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49 minutes ago, XpliCT_ said:

I have been pondering this question for quite some time now, and I'm interested in hearing the community's response.  

I believe that Destroyers have the most influence over all three battle types.  This is due to the nature how a battle plays out, more than the actual class itself.  I think the ability to spot and contest caps, while remaining virtually unseen, is extremely powerful.  Let me know why you believe what you do, but please, keep it civil.

Random - DD's

CW  - Cruisers 

Ranked - Cruisers 

There is a reason why the CW meta is 1-2 DD's , 4-5 CA's and 1 BB. 

due to the low amount of BB's in CW, DD's are relegated to spotting and capping with the odd torpedo strike connecting. 

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13 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

Random - DD's

CW  - Cruisers 

Ranked - Cruisers 

There is a reason why the CW meta is 1-2 DD's , 4-5 CA's and 1 BB. 

due to the low amount of BB's in CW, DD's are relegated to spotting and capping with the odd torpedo strike connecting. 

The reason most higher teams run 1-2 DDs is due to DPM.  If you run too much vision, and don't have the DPM to back it up, the vision is useless.  

The nature of the maps also doesn't lend to DDs being high in numbers.  Many of the maps have two "free" caps, with one single cap being contested over.  You don't need vision everywhere to contest or control a single point.  

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10 minutes ago, XpliCT_ said:

The reason most higher teams run 1-2 DDs is due to DPM.  If you run too much vision, and don't have the DPM to back it up, the vision is useless.  

The nature of the maps also doesn't lend to DDs being high in numbers.  Many of the maps have two "free" caps, with one single cap being contested over.  You don't need vision everywhere to contest or control a single point.  

Exactly , which leads to the point that in CW, the most influence is the team that can apply the most DPM to a called target. 

Usually if you have a team with 2 DD's and one with 1 DD, the one with the 1 DD will win on DPM alone, as long as its properly managed ofcourse. 

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2 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

Exactly , which leads to the point that in CW, the most influence is the team that can apply the most DPM to a called target. 

Usually if you have a team with 2 DD's and one with 1 DD, the one with the 1 DD will win on DPM alone, as long as its properly managed ofcourse. 

That's not necessarily true, it's how the team plans its tactics.  We use both single, and double DD strats depending on what lineup we're running.  Some times, a single source of vision is enough, and if we can control their DD, we'll win easily.  Other times our DD takes a chunk right off the start, and we lose control of the map.  

Hell, you have teams like HON that we were able to exploit due to their 6 Moskva strat.  It took our DD staying 11.8km from their outlier Moskva for us to beat them.  They weren't able to control our vision and do their push unabated.  We wouldn't have won that game on DPM alone.  

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31 minutes ago, XpliCT_ said:

I have been pondering this question for quite some time now, and I'm interested in hearing the community's response. 

I know people always go with the DDs as the most influential but I see it a little differently.  You'll notice people always need to add a caveat to that statement: "a well played DD".  How well played, and how often does that happen?  On an individual level maybe it is DDs.  When you look at DD influence collectively then you have to start to question things.  Many DDs die in the opening minutes of the match so the only influence they are contributing is to their team losing.  The ironic thing is half of those players will end up with a win.

I believe it was @XpliCT_ that posted the average WR for T10 DDs yesterday.  They had a high WR.  However, if you were to normalize for games played that WR would drop like a rock because the Shima and Gearing account for the vast majority of the games played and they both have a sub 50% WR.  I think a lot of people get too caught up in WR.  WR is just a poor measure of the actual influence of any given ship for so many reasons.  I don't really want to debate WR so I'll leave it at that.

I believe DDs are really quite poor at influencing the game when viewed collectively.  On the other hand, collectively BBs are probably to most influential game to game.  How well your BBs play collectively has a very big influence on every match.  They have the firepower and staying power to win games.  You don't need your BBs to be "played well", they just need to be played more competently than the other team.  No one ever notices because this all goes on very quietly in the background.  Game in and game out its the BBs that win the games.    

 

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19 minutes ago, Kombat_W0MBAT said:

But... but... DDs are underpowered!!!

I think the words you are looking for is "Under Compensated".

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Example: You can have a Unicum Hindenburg & Yamato player.  What can they do when their potato DD(s) get rekt and the enemy DDs like Fletcher, Shimakaze, Yueyang, Chung Mu, etc. are running loose in front of them?

 

NOT A D*MN THING.

 

A simple, disciplined Tier VIII Benson will push back far away from the cap the Unicum Tier X Hindy / Yamato players because they know they got zero play against a Stealth Torpedo Destroyer.  What are they going to do?  Charge the opposing Cruisers and Battleships with unspottable DDs in front of them also?

 

Surely you guys have seen something like 6 Non-DDs get pushed back by 1-2 Stealth Torpedo DDs?  I've seen that MANY TIMES.

 

Now, don't mistake my post as, "Wow it's easy being a DD," because it's not.  It's wholly unforgiving.  But outside a Carrier, they determine greatly who wins, who loses.  As a Cruiser Main with Battleships as a second preferred ship type, in all honesty, Cruisers and Battleships typically ride on the coattails of the team's DDs.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Just now, SJ_Sailer said:

I think the words you are looking for is "Under Compensated".

 

Won't argue with that. Unfortunately, many people on this forum think compensation should be fixed by increasing performance instead of addressing the problem directly. 

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I agree with that.  DD's should not be the most powerful ship and they should not deal as much damage as BB's however exp should be awarded equally ( on average with equal play ) with BB's for things DD's do like spotting, capping, etc.

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13 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I know people always go with the DDs as the most influential but I see it a little differently.  You'll notice people always need to add a caveat to that statement: "a well played DD".  How well played, and how often does that happen?  On an individual level maybe it is DDs.  When you look at DD influence collectively then you have to start to question things.  Many DDs die in the opening minutes of the match so the only influence they are contributing is to their team losing.  The ironic thing is half of those players will end up with a win.

I believe it was @XpliCT_ that posted the average WR for T10 DDs yesterday.  They had a high WR.  However, if you were to normalize for games played that WR would drop like a rock because the Shima and Gearing account for the vast majority of the games played and they both have a sub 50% WR.  I think a lot of people get too caught up in WR.  WR is just a poor measure of the actual influence of any given ship for so many reasons.  I don't really want to debate WR so I'll leave it at that.

I believe DDs are really quite poor at influencing the game when viewed collectively.  On the other hand, collectively BBs are probably to most influential game to game.  How well your BBs play collectively has a very big influence on every match.  They have the firepower and staying power to win games.  You don't need your BBs to be "played well", they just need to be played more competently than the other team.  No one ever notices because this all goes on very quietly in the background.  Game in and game out its the BBs that win the games.    

 

Speaking on your first point, every ship type has their potatoes in it.  I've seen people from all 4 classes, CV included, die within the first few minutes of a battle.  Is it more prevalent for destroyers?  Yes, I'd argue due to their mobility and their ability to even contest a cap.  That is also kind of their job, which in actuality is very difficult to do.  I believe that a DD is given more tools to influence a battle, when you compare them to BB or CA.  Whether or not you are able to use those tools is a different story.  

I did post the chart yesterday reflecting on W/R, and you're probably right.  If I actually spent time normalizing for battles played it would be a bit closer, but what you fail to realize is that, by a pretty good margin, the Montana and Yamato have the most battles for BB, and the Des Moines and Hindenburg, with the Zao trailing slightly, have the most battles for CA.  Those 5 ships are all at or around 49.5%, and are within .25% of each other, with the Montana and the Yamato bringing up the rear as the lowest winrates.  The Gearing is at 49.46%, and the Shima is at 49.43%, both higher than the Yamato and the Montana.  If I get some time, I'll try to make you a normalized chart tonight.  

The issue with saying that BBs have the most influence comes down to utility.  BBs do damage, and nothing more.  In order to do that damage though, you need both vision and time, and DDs can either prevent, or enable that.  A BB is also EXTREMELY difficult to cap in, while staying alive and combat effective.  Is it impossible?  Of course not, but it is far easier to do it in a DD.  You need caps or kills to win a game, preferably both, and DDs directly contribute to both of them.  

Edited by XpliCT_

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