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AP Penetration on 0.7.11 Discussion Thread.

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From Developer Bulletin 0.7.11 https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/public-test/bulletin-0711/

Changes in the Damage Mechanics

The testing of changes to the damage mechanics of AP shells continues, allowing the exclusion of rare cases when large caliber shells inflicted excessive damage on destroyers. This happened when a shell hit destroyers’ armor at an acute angle. The thickness of the armor allowed the shell to arm and cause considerable damage inside of the ship's hull.

To avoid such cases, we have introduced a limit on the maximum damage caused by an AP shell to all destroyers, with the exceptions of Khabarovsk and Harugumo. The loss of ships’ HP from an AP shell with a caliber of 280 mm and higher will no longer exceed 10% of the maximum possible damage caused by such a shell. Although 10% might seem like a rather small value, hits will still inflict significant damage to destroyers.

38928cca-dcfd-11e8-81a4-d89d6715223c.jpg

This change will also affect the interaction of destroyers with battleships and some heavy cruisers. Ships carrying a caliber of 280 mm and more will have to be more careful when choosing the type of shells to be fired, depending on the game situation. A close-range salvo with AP shells will still cause considerable damage to a destroyer, which will not allow her to "fly in" at an enemy ship and launch her torpedoes without much risk.

Considering the new mechanics, destroyers’ Commanders will be less troubled by the situations when an occasional volley threatens half of their HP, which would bring the ship out of active combat.

Besides that, there are certain changes to the mechanics of causing damage to bulges, secondary battery/AA defense, and fully destroyed parts of a ship. Now, when these areas are hit, the ship will receive guaranteed damage of 10% of the maximum damage that can be caused by such a projectile or torpedo. The new mechanics will reduce the number of cases when, despite receiving the "Penetration" ribbon, no damage to the ship’s HP was inflicted.

 

Seems like these changes will at least make it on the test server. I don't know if this will be a good solution or open a whole new can of worms, especially the part about causing damage to bulges and mounts. As for the DDs, as a DD enthusiast I would just be happy with the removal of double dipping. That said, all this info is preliminary and could change any time. Just thought it would be interesting to at least try and have a civil discussion on these changes instead of picking our "mafias".

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I don't agree with this. They introduce a broken mechanic in radar. DDs cry because 1 in 1000 times that they get zapped with radar a lucky BB salvo will insta-delete them. It's bad enough that DDs can stalk BBs around the map with amazing stealth and then throw upwards of 16 torps at them when factoring things like reload boosters, but now BBs will get very little in the means of self defense. Come on...with the WASD hacks, BBs are lucky to even land a shell on an actively maneuvering DD. Now the shell will do squat. What you are going to see is more chances of yolo torping and other things.  Am I wrong here? 

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It seems like a reasonable change, but it sounds like it may be addressing a problem that only happens on rare occasions.  I don't really know, though.  When I'm driving a DD and I get spotted, it's hard to tell which of the 5-6 ships that pound me are the ones doing the damage.  It's rarely just one BB firing.

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Yeah I guess they needed to test but I am surprised it’s so soon. I feel like they should also buff secondary guns for BB and CA to help with this main gun nerf. 

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3 minutes ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

I don't agree with this. They introduce a broken mechanic in radar. DDs cry because 1 in 1000 times that they get zapped with radar a lucky BB salvo will insta-delete them. It's bad enough that DDs can stalk BBs around the map with amazing stealth and then throw upwards of 16 torps at them when factoring things like reload boosters, but now BBs will get very little in the means of self defense. Come on...with the WASD hacks, BBs are lucky to even land a shell on an actively maneuvering DD. Now the shell will do squat. What you are going to see is more chances of yolo torping and other things.  Am I wrong here? 

Switch shell types. 

Yolo torping should be an option. Many DDs have lower torp range than visibility and that is what they are designed to do.

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1 minute ago, zubalkabir said:

It seems like a reasonable change, but it sounds like it may be addressing a problem that only happens on rare occasions.  I don't really know, though.  When I'm driving a DD and I get spotted, it's hard to tell which of the 5-6 ships that pound me are the ones doing the damage.  It's rarely just one BB firing.

The one that makes that awful reverberation and takes most of your life, that's the BB shell.

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13 minutes ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

I don't agree with this. They introduce a broken mechanic in radar. DDs cry because 1 in 1000 times that they get zapped with radar a lucky BB salvo will insta-delete them. It's bad enough that DDs can stalk BBs around the map with amazing stealth and then throw upwards of 16 torps at them when factoring things like reload boosters, but now BBs will get very little in the means of self defense. Come on...with the WASD hacks, BBs are lucky to even land a shell on an actively maneuvering DD. Now the shell will do squat. What you are going to see is more chances of yolo torping and other things.  Am I wrong here? 

Meh.  I don't know.  I don't seem to have a problem killing DDs when I'm driving a BB.  Of course, I tend to favor BBs with decent secondaries, like Alsace, Massachusetts, Bayern, Konig, and Nassau.

 

Edit:  And I also usually take Expert Loader commander skill on my BBs.  And on the Mass, I took it with the John Doe commander, so switching back and forth from AP to HE takes something like 7.5 seconds.

Edited by zubalkabir

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This change does not exist because DD's never get buffs, only nerfs. That's what DD players always say so it must be true. Bunch of [edited].

At any rate I think this change will actually make DD's *less* tanky then more, as it means instead of waiting to see a DD turn and show some angle to get shells to detonate inside, BB's will just let em rip on reload, which means more shells flying, more shells hitting broadsides, and likely deader DD's.

Edited by _RC1138

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9 minutes ago, Lonewolfpj said:

Yeah I guess they needed to test but I am surprised it’s so soon. I feel like they should also buff secondary guns for BB and CA to help with this main gun nerf. 

Lol Buff my Bismark secondary guns?

7D865E60-E8E5-48D1-9C5D-65DB14700EDA.gif.baa6e09bf7defd9a09b00f033bcaaf73.gif

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Just now, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Lol Buff my Bismark secondary guns?

7D865E60-E8E5-48D1-9C5D-65DB14700EDA.gif.baa6e09bf7defd9a09b00f033bcaaf73.gif

Yeah I don’t have high tier German BB so that might be to much. I am interested to see where this goes. 

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9 minutes ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

I don't agree with this. They introduce a broken mechanic in radar. DDs cry because 1 in 1000 times that they get zapped with radar a lucky BB salvo will insta-delete them. It's bad enough that DDs can stalk BBs around the map with amazing stealth and then throw upwards of 16 torps at them when factoring things like reload boosters, but now BBs will get very little in the means of self defense. Come on...with the WASD hacks, BBs are lucky to even land a shell on an actively maneuvering DD. Now the shell will do squat. What you are going to see is more chances of yolo torping and other things.  Am I wrong here? 

It would be nice if radar only spotted my DD 1 in 1000 times however the reality is more like 1 in 7 times.  Which DD can fire a 16 torpedo spread?  Only certain IJN DD can equip the torpedo reload booster and some have to give up smoke to do so.  How are BB defenseless against DD?  If you are actively using WASD, does not this mean the DD is close to you?  Yolo torping, do you mean area denial?

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You can yolo torp in low tier matches, but above T6 it begins to get very difficult. 

I dont think any of these AP changes are necessary. I accept occasionally getting BLAPPED by BBs as an occupational hazard of DD play. 

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I know where they're coming from with this change, but it's not the right way to go.

They're focusing on is a shell traveling the length of the ship or travelling through enough to detonate inside, which given the damage a BB shell can do on it's own can take a DD out of the game with just one round, but given the mechanics of the AP round, it was fair as the player was lucky enough to land a round on the bow of a DD (this is probably the biggest factor given Battleship dispersion and general RNG), the player should be rewarded with a normal damage pen.

They could have changed the mechanic or added code that determines at what angle the shell impacts and if it's larger than say, 65 degrees from 90 (a flat broadside) the shell would be able to do normal damage as it could reasonably be seen as giving the shell enough time to arm and detonate inside the ship for standard pen damage rolls. But anything narrower would be an over-pen and stick to the same damage model as is current.

But given that they're doing it to fix the double dipping issue, it seems like a more scorched-earth kind of fix that if they can't fix the double dipping issue, then they'll just make sure BBs can't do anything more than 10% normal shell damage.

I'm not a fan of that approach but for now will wait to see what happens as more player feedback is given..

 

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25 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

It seems like a reasonable change, but it sounds like it may be addressing a problem that only happens on rare occasions.  I don't really know, though.  When I'm driving a DD and I get spotted, it's hard to tell which of the 5-6 ships that pound me are the ones doing the damage.  It's rarely just one BB firing.

It’s not rare. It’s trivially easy to do. Just fire at a DD that is angled in any way and you stand a good chance of getting a 33% pen. The thin plating is an automatic overmatch with any hit of BB shells. 

This is a VERY needed change, as BB are currently far too strong against DDs.

Edited by HazardDrake
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This happened  to me last night in my shimmy. I was taken out by a BB on the other side of the map. I was bobbing and weaving because I was spotted and getting shot at by several ships. I was impressed that he hit me and after I got deleted I told him nice shot because it was. BB players shouldn’t be penalized for marking good shots. I hope this goes through testing for a while. 

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Yay, so 16" guns will now only beable to overpen.  Cruiser guns will now be better then BB guns, as those will be able to actually score more then 1000 dmg at a time.

Sooo BB sigma and acc buffs when?

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10 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

Yay, so 16" guns will now only beable to overpen.  Cruiser guns will now be better then BB guns, as those will be able to actually score more then 1000 dmg at a time.

Sooo BB sigma and acc buffs when?

Ummm. This change is happening because BB accuracy WAS buffed, way back when. Back in beta, BB generally didn’t bother trying to shoot at DD unless at Yolo range because they didn’t have the accuracy.

Also, what BB AP shell does only 10,000 damage? Maybe Scharnhorst and some of the low tier stuff. 

Expect no buffs. This is happening because even WG realizes that it’s too easy for a BB to kill DDs with AP.

Edited by HazardDrake
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46 minutes ago, _Caliph_ said:

Switch shell types. 

Yolo torping should be an option. Many DDs have lower torp range than visibility and that is what they are designed to do.

I feel like you either don't play any high tiers, or don't play BBs.  You probably don't do either.  

There isn't a DD at T10, with the exception of the Khab, that has a stealth torp window of less than 4km.  Switching shell types in a BB takes 30 seconds, 15 if you actually spend a skill point on expert loader.  The chance of a DD being spotted, you having the ability to switch shell types, then being able to accurately fire on said DD are incredibly slim.

This change does not fix the only problem that needed to be addressed; double dipping.  If you know how to play DDs, you know that you don't angle in or out on a BB.  You wait for his salvo to land while showing as much broadside as possible, then you turn out and evade.  This is just a buff to DD survivability, that isn't needed.  A good DD player is already hard enough to kill, and this gives them far more freedom.  

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So how does khab fit into this? Will shells not arm on a bow penned 50mm khab?

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1 hour ago, _Caliph_ said:

Switch shell types. 

Yolo torping should be an option. Many DDs have lower torp range than visibility and that is what they are designed to do.

Invisible torping is one of the main causes of the stagnant gameplay so many say they hate in Randoms.

 

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BB AP shell hits a DD and doesn't do significant damage............many a WWII DD skipper wishes they had this mechanic

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Obviously this is a huge nerf to the Graf Spee; a ship that already is highly vulnerable to DD attacks due to the limited number of main battery guns and its slow reload.....this is simply sad.....

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@XpliCT_ Whether this change or a proper fix for the double dip is implemented both generate an increase in DD survive-ability however in the case of proper fix it restores the survive-ability the DD should have had to begin with.  The question is, if this change goes thru how much more survive-ability the DD will attain over what a proper fix would provide?

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10 minutes ago, XpliCT_ said:

I feel like you either don't play any high tiers, or don't play BBs.  You probably don't do either.  

There isn't a DD at T10, with the exception of the Khab, that has a stealth torp window of less than 4km.  Switching shell types in a BB takes 30 seconds, 15 if you actually spend a skill point on expert loader.  The chance of a DD being spotted, you having the ability to switch shell types, then being able to accurately fire on said DD are incredibly slim.

This change does not fix the only problem that needed to be addressed; double dipping.  If you know how to play DDs, you know that you don't angle in or out on a BB.  You wait for his salvo to land while showing as much broadside as possible, then you turn out and evade.  This is just a buff to DD survivability, that isn't needed.  A good DD player is already hard enough to kill, and this gives them far more freedom.  

Indeed... I see a lot of DDs appear and disappear in the time it takes a BB to reload or change shell types. 

But this change is typical Wargaming... killing houseflies with howitzers.   Just fix double-dipping, and be done with it.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Xanshin said:

So how does khab fit into this? Will shells not arm on a bow penned 50mm khab?

Read the OP and your question will be answered. 

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