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Madwolf05

When is the next USN Heavy Cruiser rework?

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Prior to the USN Cruiser split WarGaming put out yet another USN CA rework. This time, even less spectacular than the first two.

The highlights of the rework included:

* Starting off bottom Tier ships, with a massive, and ridiculous sucker punch with the nerf bat. Shockingly, this proved too much for the dumpster bin performance of the Tier 7, and 8 ships, as well as the middling performance of the Baltimore. Despite moving down a Tier.

* The Pensacola defied all logic by retaining these nerfs. Nerfs which took the fixes which made the ship so unpleasent to play in years prior, and gutted them to restore the "fun and engaging" play style of being seen from Outer Space all over again.

* The Pensacola doubled down on horrible ideas, by removing what she did well. Rudder shift and descent turret traverse, and turned her into a ship that has no strengths other than "lul 10 guns," which hilariously doesn't work even based on the underlying numbers before you even include the fact that her glacial turrets can't track targets 10km away in over a 1/4th rudder turn.

* To "fix" the Pensacola a player needs to take a module that nerfs her already less than impressive theoretical DPM, and also take a Captain Skill that is utterly uneeded for every other ship in the line. So open your wallets I guess to fix your Captain when you get to the New Orleans.

* Summing her up? A poor ship that is also no longer "fun." For all the balancing "effort" spent on her, she's gone from worst Tier 7 to Tier 6 Cruiser.

* Tier 7 New Orleans actually ended up okay.  Not good, but at least it's not in the gutter. So, good I guess.

* Tier 7 Indianapolis got more updates you won't notice because they make no difference. Now however it looks like a bigger pile of crap thanks to the New Orleans being better in every way minus Radar, which frankly is a joke on Indy no matter how long the range is. Fairly useless at 8km is fairly useless at 9.9km. How about making the ship good without tying Radar around its neck and acting like everything is super? 

* Tier 8 Baltimore is now a worse Baltimore than she was at Tier 9, and reminds us all to ask "why?" No one asked for this, and not having Repair Party is crippling for a line with 0 frills, and 0 to make up for it outside of your bounce angles which don't matter in most situations since players have learned about angling at Tier 7.

* Witchita is so far going from a meh ship to another turd in the punch bowl. Who wants another version of the Indianapolis to waste their money on, and feel completely cheated? This time without the excuse of bounce angles fix everything! Anyone? No one. That's what I thought. Just scrap it already. Another half-assed attempt like the Indianapolis with all the tone-defness of WV '41.

* Buffallo! Oh boy! Inserting a ship with a design from the mid 30s after the Baltimore, which no one hated just reeks of genius. Add a 4th turret in there just to ruin the progression of the standard USN 3x3 gun placement on all 203mm gun Cruisers for extra flavoring, kill the mobility, make those traverse angles extra bad, and add in a citadel 30 feet above the waterline, and the fun just won't stop.

* Des Moines is a great ship until you get experience in every other Tier 10 CA, and then her short comings become super annoying. Just enough range to not be able to engage in early combat with your 20 minute long flight times at max range I can totally see how having a 19-20km range would be soooooo game breaking. Combine this with her 3rd worst HP for whatever reason we're giving now, and being able to be citadeled from wherever doesn't exactly help.

So what are the plans to fix it this time? 100hp added to all USN CAs? The Indianapolis getting a .05second reload buff and .01km added to her Radar? 8 months of data gathering to make changes that are barely worth mentioning combined with some nerf that is so head scratching it defies all efforts to deduce?

I'm so tired of waiting for WGing to put forth any semblence of effort with this line. After all the money I put in from Alpha to about 6 months ago, I just stopped support the lack if effort going on. 

This is like being told to do a good job and you'll be rewarded, and just coming to the point of understanding that is just something to keep you quite while the person making the promises continues to take advantage of you.

 

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I hope you're not holding your breath for any of this.

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While I agree the USN CA line is more of a mess than before, I don't really agree with all points, not all the ships are bad after changes, you are being a bit harsh on Baltimore I think, even if it is true that she was vastly better at T9 in her Mini-Moines form. (T6 Pensacola can go to the orphanage though - Aoba any day of the week). Plus, Buffalo is a design from 1940, and while she doesn't make much sense inbetween Balti & Des Moines, the Walking Mediocrity is only there because WG are lazy and tried to save modelling effort on the rework. Wichita... just hold it.

Unfortunately though, I can't see any changes happening anytime soon. Not at least until we have 3 Italian lines up and running, along with French DDs, and the possibility of Commonwealth or European trees. Even then, USN CAs got some attention, while other lines might be more of a priority for a rework (Plox let it be RN BBs).

 

Edited by Trainspite
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The fact that they need attention is all that really needs to be said.

The Buffalo is based on a design study, but the design the study was based on is from how we designed ships in the late 20s to mid 30s. No USN CA was going to be decked like that post 1937. And the fact that they screwed up the flow of the 3x3 in the line on top of it to shove a square peg in a round hole is just pure lazy.

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  • What have you got against bullet points?
  • While I agree on some points, a rework is a bit excessive
  • There is some value to ships being 'different' if not necessarily 'good'

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I don't think we'll see any rework in the foreseeable future.  We'll see if the CV rework will make US cruiser AA relevant again.  That might give these ships a little more value.

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20 minutes ago, mofton said:
  • What have you got against bullet points?
  • While I agree on some points, a rework is a bit excessive
  • There is some value to ships being 'different' if not necessarily 'good'

Cell phone.

Let another line be cra... I mean "different."

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14 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I don't think we'll see any rework in the foreseeable future.  We'll see if the CV rework will make US cruiser AA relevant again.  That might give these ships a little more value.

In the CV beta they're all worse in AA effectiveness. Much worse.

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46 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

After all the money I put in

I knew this line was going to appear eventually. Paragraph after paragraph of subjective negativity, and then the kicker. YOU don't deserve to be treated like this because YOU'RE a paying customer. Really? What about the free-to-play crowd? Do THEY deserve lesser treatment? Do THEY deserve a lesser voice at the table? Should we play less heed to THEIR words just because THEY can't or won't cough up the money?

Leave what you've spent out of this and address the issues at hand, calmly and rationally, or you'll find not only WG but also other forum members pushing your complaints way down to the bottom of the proverbial barrel and holding them there till they drown.

You're going back on my ignore list and this time you're not coming off it again, because this post has just reminded me of exactly why I started ignoring you in the first place.

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1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I knew this line was going to appear eventually. Paragraph after paragraph of subjective negativity, and then the kicker. YOU don't deserve to be treated like this because YOU'RE a paying customer. Really? What about the free-to-play crowd? Do THEY deserve lesser treatment? Do THEY deserve a lesser voice at the table? Should we play less heed to THEIR words just because THEY can't or won't cough up the money?

Leave what you've spent out of this and address the issues at hand, calmly and rationally, or you'll find not only WG but also other forum members pushing your complaints way down to the bottom of the proverbial barrel and holding them there till they drown.

You're going back on my ignore list and this time you're not coming off it again, because this post has just reminded me of exactly why I started ignoring you in the first place.

Let me get this straight. You're upset at me because I noted I paid for something in the game.

Some how this makes you a "victim" of some sort of discrimination because by not mentioning you some how means that I don't support you even if you agree or disagree with me?

The leap in your logic hear is truly mind boggling.

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23 hours ago, Madwolf05 said:

Prior to the USN Cruiser split WarGaming put out yet another USN CA rework. This time, even less spectacular than the first two.

The highlights of the rework included:

* Starting off bottom Tier ships, with a massive, and ridiculous sucker punch with the nerf bat. Shockingly, this proved too much for the dumpster bin performance of the Tier 7, and 8 ships, as well as the middling performance of the Baltimore. Despite moving down a Tier.

* The Pensacola defied all logic by retaining these nerfs. Nerfs which took the fixes which made the ship so unpleasent to play in years prior, and gutted them to restore the "fun and engaging" play style of being seen from Outer Space all over again.

* The Pensacola doubled down on horrible ideas, by removing what she did well. Rudder shift and descent turret traverse, and turned her into a ship that has no strengths other than "lul 10 guns," which hilariously doesn't work even based on the underlying numbers before you even include the fact that her glacial turrets can't track targets 10km away in over a 1/4th rudder turn.

* To "fix" the Pensacola a player needs to take a module that nerfs her already less than impressive theoretical DPM, and also take a Captain Skill that is utterly uneeded for every other ship in the line. So open your wallets I guess to fix your Captain when you get to the New Orleans.

* Summing her up? A poor ship that is also no longer "fun." For all the balancing "effort" spent on her, she's gone from worst Tier 7 to Tier 6 Cruiser.

* Tier 7 New Orleans actually ended up okay.  Not good, but at least it's not in the gutter. So, good I guess.

* Tier 7 Indianapolis got more updates you won't notice because they make no difference. Now however it looks like a bigger pile of crap thanks to the New Orleans being better in every way minus Radar, which frankly is a joke on Indy no matter how long the range is. Fairly useless at 8km is fairly useless at 9.9km. How about making the ship good without tying Radar around its neck and acting like everything is super? 

* Tier 8 Baltimore is now a worse Baltimore than she was at Tier 9, and reminds us all to ask "why?" No one asked for this, and not having Repair Party is crippling for a line with 0 frills, and 0 to make up for it outside of your bounce angles which don't matter in most situations since players have learned about angling at Tier 7.

* Witchita is so far going from a meh ship to another turd in the punch bowl. Who wants another version of the Indianapolis to waste their money on, and feel completely cheated? This time without the excuse of bounce angles fix everything! Anyone? No one. That's what I thought. Just scrap it already. Another half-assed attempt like the Indianapolis with all the tone-defness of WV '41.

* Buffallo! Oh boy! Inserting a ship with a design from the mid 30s after the Baltimore, which no one hated just reeks of genius. Add a 4th turret in there just to ruin the progression of the standard USN 3x3 gun placement on all 203mm gun Cruisers for extra flavoring, kill the mobility, make those traverse angles extra bad, and add in a citadel 30 feet above the waterline, and the fun just won't stop.

* Des Moines is a great ship until you get experience in every other Tier 10 CA, and then her short comings become super annoying. Just enough range to not be able to engage in early combat with your 20 minute long flight times at max range I can totally see how having a 19-20km range would be soooooo game breaking. Combine this with her 3rd worst HP for whatever reason we're giving now, and being able to be citadeled from wherever doesn't exactly help.

So what are the plans to fix it this time? 100hp added to all USN CAs? The Indianapolis getting a .05second reload buff and .01km added to her Radar? 8 months of data gathering to make changes that are barely worth mentioning combined with some nerf that is so head scratching it defies all efforts to deduce?

I'm so tired of waiting for WGing to put forth any semblence of effort with this line. After all the money I put in from Alpha to about 6 months ago, I just stopped support the lack if effort going on. 

This is like being told to do a good job and you'll be rewarded, and just coming to the point of understanding that is just something to keep you quite while the person making the promises continues to take advantage of you.

 

Ok ... 

First off the US Heavy Cruiser line is not in need of fixing any more than any of the other cruiser lines are.  Des Moines is what Des Moines is, the rework didn't change her much at all so status quo there. 

New Orleans vs Pensacola at T7.  This is a welcome change giving you a tougher ship rather than the glass cannon the Pensacola was at this tier. 

Baltimore at Tier 8 is no worse that New Orleans at that tier and maybe a bit tougher as well. Losing the heal is only an issue if she were a T9 ship, which she no longer is.  

Buffalo at T9 seems to be a solid ship with lots of firepower and appears to be a tougher ship than Baltimore was.  Once again she's a slight trade up from what Baltimore was at this tier before the rework. 

Pensacola and T6.  Ok there is something of a point to be made with Pensacola here.  She is nothing like the nimble glass cannon she was at T7 and you can't fight her as if she were.  What she does have now is a ridiculously heavier punch than the other cruisers she faces at T6.  This transforms her from the nimble dancer trying to dodge every shot coming her way (because she had to) to the big dog on the block in terms of firepower.  Figure that out and use her as such as she actually can do pretty well.  

Indianapolis was always just a bit better and tougher than Pensacola at Tier 7, now she's slightly worse than the New Orleans at that tier.  However she hasn't really been changed by the new US lines so she is no better, or worse at that tier than she has ever been.  Once again, no change status quo. 

Honestly, there's not a lot to complain about here other than things have changed and sometimes people don't like change. 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel
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The only ship to come out of the rework bad was the Pensacola, which is just... brutal.  It pays way too much for that firepower, it's ungainly as hell and can't even keep its guns trained on target while it turns.  It has mediocre cruiser armor and BB-level agility.

The tier 7 New Orleans is wonderful, IMO, a good blend of toughness, maneuverability, and firepower.

 

 

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

The only ship to come out of the rework bad was the Pensacola, which is just... brutal.  It pays way too much for that firepower, it's ungainly as hell and can't even keep its guns trained on target while it turns.  It has mediocre cruiser armor and BB-level agility.

The tier 7 New Orleans is wonderful, IMO, a good blend of toughness, maneuverability, and firepower.

 

 

To he frank, for what she lost, Pensacola gained beast status by having the sbility to lolpen equal and lower tier cruisers. Her only downside is her atrocious turret traverse. In fact Pensacola is even nore beast in t6 operations where most of the cruisers snd destroyers can be over matched by her 203mm guns.

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  • Pensacola shines in Operations where you know where her turrets will have to point 30 minutes hence.  Not so much in other modes. 
  • Frankly, I'm less in love with T7 New Orleans than any other ship in the line.  But I haven't player her a lot because of that. 
  • Baltimore is terrific at T8. 
  • Buffalo I have only a few games in, but it feels like driving an armor-less BB. 
  • DM I don't have yet.

Based on my experience, the line could use a little work.  But I don't have the data that WG does so my opinion isn't worth as much as theirs.

 

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5 hours ago, Trainspite said:

While I agree the USN CA line is more of a mess than before, I don't really agree with all points, not all the ships are bad after changes, you are being a bit harsh on Baltimore I think, even if it is true that she was vastly better at T9 in her Mini-Moines form. (T6 Pensacola can go to the orphanage though - Aoba any day of the week). Plus, Buffalo is a design from 1940, and while she doesn't make much sense inbetween Balti & Des Moines, the Walking Mediocrity is only there because WG are lazy and tried to save modelling effort on the rework. Wichita... just hold it.

Unfortunately though, I can't see any changes happening anytime soon. Not at least until we have 3 Italian lines up and running, along with French DDs, and the possibility of Commonwealth or European trees. Even then, USN CAs got some attention, while other lines might be more of a priority for a rework (Plox let it be RN BBs).

 

Honestly, I feel that the USN heavy cruiser line is in a pretty good place right now. 

- Pensacola is a freaking train wreck that I hate to play now.  It's literally the only ship in the line I /care/ about since my favorite ship is the Salt Lake City, but whatever.  One stinker per line is fine.  It's no longer a line of bottom feeders.  I can do damage in the ship, but it's not fun.

- NOLA.  I love the Nola at T7.  She's great, a joy to play.

- Indy still sucks.  She's premium though, so caveat emptor.

- Baltimore is OK.  She's good if not as OP as some folks claim, or as bad as others claim.  Performance stats say she's better than only the Hippers and Takaos.  That's fine.  I've got no problems with a ship balanced to be in the middle.  Sounds like...balance.

- Buffalo.  I haven't played her much because I don't like T9 and 10 games.  She's been fun and effective the games I played with her.  I'd like some changes sure, but I don't feel like WTH is this crap?  She seems solid.

- Des Moines is good.  I haven't played it since beta, but I don't see much to indicate there's a problem with the ship that can't be explained by the long duration radar that sees though islands.  Oh yeah, we're talking about weaknesses.  Uhm...she's not as strong in open water as I'd like?  Oh, Hi there Salem, pleasure to meet you.

If I had to make any suggestions, it would probably be to remove the improved auto-bounce angles from the non SHS so Pensacola can be "adjusted" (although her performance to me looks like I was dead on when I said she needed no nerfs to be demoted to T6)  If all else fails just take the Mk 19's away and give her older shells.  the rest of the line is pretty solid though.  I don't think there's a lot to complain about.

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5 hours ago, Madwolf05 said:

* Tier 8 Baltimore is now a worse Baltimore than she was at Tier 9, and reminds us all to ask "why?" No one asked for this, and not having Repair Party is crippling for a line with 0 frills, and 0 to make up for it outside of your bounce angles which don't matter in most situations since players have learned about angling at Tier 7.

You think?  No one asked for that?  I dunno, I saw a lot of suggestions to lower Baltimore a Tier, which obviously would be coupled with nerfs and the removal of Tier IX options.

This section epitomizes the lines of thought that either a ship should be balanced against the highest tier ship it can see, an absurd idea that followed to its logical conclusion make a Tier II balanced with a Tier X, or that US ships should be better than non-US ships.

Of course Tier VIII Baltimore isn't going to be as strong as Tier IX Baltimore was.  To expect that is to set yourself up for a guaranteed disappointment.  Tier VIII Baltimore is fine.

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3 hours ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

Pensacola and T6.  Ok there is something of a point to be made with Pensacola here.  She is nothing like the nimble glass cannon she was at T7 and you can't fight her as if she were.  What she does have now is a ridiculously heavier punch than the other cruisers she faces at T6.  This transforms her from the nimble dancer trying to dodge every shot coming her way (because she had to) to the big dog on the block in terms of firepower.  Figure that out and use her as such as she actually can do pretty well.  

 

That's not true.  Graf Spee out alphas her.  There are a lot of better heavy cruisers than Pensacola.  Her big alpha isn't everything.  While I would say that Aoba is in a worse place right now, Pensacola sucks.

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15 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

If I had to make any suggestions, it would probably be to remove the improved auto-bounce angles from the non SHS so Pensacola can be "adjusted" (although her performance to me looks like I was dead on when I said she needed no nerfs to be demoted to T6)  If all else fails just take the Mk 19's away and give her older shells.  the rest of the line is pretty solid though.  I don't think there's a lot to complain about.

Taking away the /55 caliber gun and giving her better traverse rates is my preferred option, but people threw a huge fit about losing the /55 and angles. So we're stuck with 10 8"/55 and there's no real way to make that fair without making the ship really bad at applying it.

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12 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Taking away the /55 caliber gun and giving her better traverse rates is my preferred option, but people threw a huge fit about losing the /55 and angles. So we're stuck with 10 8"/55 and there's no real way to make that fair without making the ship really bad at applying it.

Worse 55 cal shells.  She doesn't need Mk19s and 55 cals.  Performance stats says she shouldnt have been nerfed at all though.  I don't give a rip about the AB angles, my Myoko clones hit citadels just fine without them.  Pensacola could too.  AB angles are pretty overrated imo.

Edited by crzyhawk

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The suggestion the Pensacola is "workable" is laughable.

There are basic ways you balance a ship. If it's weak in one area then it's because it's countered by being strong in another.

The Pensacola takes all these ways that offsets weakness and doubles down with another weakness.

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Pensacola rankings of Tier 6 Cruisers on NA as of Oct. 30th, 2018.

Win Rate: 15 out of 15.

Avg Frags: 15 out of 15.

Avg Damage: 15 out of 15.

Avg Experience: 15 out of 15.

KDR: 15 out of 15.

What a MONSTER. 

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15 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

Honestly, I feel that the USN heavy cruiser line is in a pretty good place right now. 

- Pensacola is a freaking train wreck that I hate to play now.  It's literally the only ship in the line I /care/ about since my favorite ship is the Salt Lake City, but whatever.  One stinker per line is fine.  It's no longer a line of bottom feeders.  I can do damage in the ship, but it's not fun.

- NOLA.  I love the Nola at T7.  She's great, a joy to play.

- Indy still sucks.  She's premium though, so caveat emptor.

- Baltimore is OK.  She's good if not as OP as some folks claim, or as bad as others claim.  Performance stats say she's better than only the Hippers and Takaos.  That's fine.  I've got no problems with a ship balanced to be in the middle.  Sounds like...balance.

- Buffalo.  I haven't played her much because I don't like T9 and 10 games.  She's been fun and effective the games I played with her.  I'd like some changes sure, but I don't feel like WTH is this crap?  She seems solid.

- Des Moines is good.  I haven't played it since beta, but I don't see much to indicate there's a problem with the ship that can't be explained by the long duration radar that sees though islands.  Oh yeah, we're talking about weaknesses.  Uhm...she's not as strong in open water as I'd like?  Oh, Hi there Salem, pleasure to meet you.

If I had to make any suggestions, it would probably be to remove the improved auto-bounce angles from the non SHS so Pensacola can be "adjusted" (although her performance to me looks like I was dead on when I said she needed no nerfs to be demoted to T6)  If all else fails just take the Mk 19's away and give her older shells.  the rest of the line is pretty solid though.  I don't think there's a lot to complain about.

It might good in the sense it received attention, but I think the results of that attention have been rather mediocre. 

- Thoroughly agreed on Pepsi. If she was considered a stopping block and turn off at tier 7 because of her playstyle and disadvantages, the T6 Pepsi asks her old self to hold the metaphorical pint of bitter and proceeds to be the biggest single turn off for anyone heading up the USN CA line. 

- New Orleans is probably the biggest success of the changes, she is very comfortable ship to play, and taking the only poor performer in the previous line and making her into one of the peaks has something to be said for it. Unfortunately, New Orleans success comes at the cost of dumping Pensacola in the trash. 

- Baltimore I can agree on. At times she feels too big at T8, too clumsy and unmaneuverable, and while she still has her firepower, her limitations hold her in balance. There isn't anything exciting about her however, while at T9 she was a very well rounded precursor to Des Moines. If ever there was a time for a T9 Oregon City FXP premium a la T9 Baltimore, now is it. 

- Buffalo... stealing the phrase 'Walking Mediocrity' from Urinating Tree describing the Bills and applying it to the Buffalo in game is almost a perfect match. The alternative description is the 'Sh*tty Zao'. She is an uncomfortable jolt in playstyle, and while has her place, it probably should be in a different USN CA line. Her performance doesn't seem that exceptional, and she is probably at the low end of the spectrum for T9 cruisers on account of her more pronounced disadvantages. Still above Ibuki though.

- Des Moines, my only tier 10, but is all that Salem geared me up to look forward to. No regrets about FXP'ing to unlock her in the twilight days of T9 Baltimore. 

Overall though, I don't see much difference. There is still one poor ship in the line, (NO vs Pepsi), there are two good ones (Balti & DM, NO & DM), while the rest have a distinctly mediocre aura around them. While the jolt in playstyle remains at T6 with Pepsi taking up Cleveland's old mantle, Buffalo now adds another layer of complexity, which in my opinion was rather unnecessary. 

Personally, the changes I would make would be made with a split in USN Heavy cruisers, between the smaller faster RoF 2 forward turrets, 1 aft ships, with another line being made up of 2F and 2A more well balanced ships. Two different flavours of USN CA. Pensacola, New Orleans and Baltimore all return to their previous tiers, while Buffalo and Pensacola are shifted across to the new line. New Orleans gets balanced closer to a certain T8 premium, and should ideally receive an HP repair as most T8 standard cruisers should. There is no reason why these ships can't be balanced well afterall, at either tier. Northampton inherits her playstyle from T7, as perhaps a premium San Fran would too. Long term plans that would sound like madness to you, I'm sure. I don't really like having a Pepsi with no nerfs at T6 though. If she could carve out her niche as an overall meh ship at T7, the devastation that could be wrought on the other T6s... Maybe a bit extreme, but considering the overall opinion of Pensacola wasn't bad at T7, the changes to put her into T6 made her two faced, perhaps there is a middle ground to be had.

 

Just going add a passing mention on Aoba for any who care for her, almost thought she was at the low end of T6, and then checked in and came around. It's probably just the turret traverse and/or range combined with the MM getting people down. Like how the torpedo reload keeps Gallant from shining and comparing well. She is still a very solid ship. Lack of potential DPM isn't really the same as lack of applied DPM, (and DPM is trash for balancing on it's own anyway). I'll take the plucky little 6-gun all-arounder over the ungainly overcompensating 10 gun ship all day. She sits with the other T6 regulars in equal standing. Buffs would be welcomed, but no serious problems found here.

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I quite enjoyed Aoba when I played through her. I applied Yuro’s “How to Furutaka” lessons at both tiers as a newer player with some degree of success. I always found her accurate, maybe that was my imagination. 

Pensacola, on the other hand, was the reason I stopped playing USN Cruisers. A truly awful experience. The line split allowed me to skip her entirely, and now I am on the Baltimore. I played a game with her at Tier 6, confirmed I still hated her, sold her and moved on.

New Orelans suffered from Shchors disease for me. I enjoyed playing her, smacked lots of people around with good guns...but, just could not get wins...at all. Both are great damage dealers, but depend heavily on the team in a game in which teams are not dependable. Sold her and moved on. 

Baltimore seems like a fine ship, to me. A bit vanilla, perhaps. Comparatively, I struggle to output damage with her like I did with New Orleans. That’s a functoin of facing much tougher opponents in a much more passive style of play, I think. Still, Baltimore is reasonably useful to the team and her guns are good.

Cleveland gives up the 203mm alpha for Swiss Army Knife consumables and omnivorous guns. The caveat is that IFHE is important and if your 14 pt Captain pairs IFHE with CE, you’re not bringing as much to the team for AA...but, happily, you still pack DFAA. Gives up a turret and torpedoes to Mogami, but has much better firing angles and radar. Which I prefer depends on mood.

I’m not necessarily dissatisfied.

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