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Snipereagle23

V-170, overlooked super-ship?

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The V-170 is by far the best Destroyer, (or any ship, for that matter) that I have played. It's just so much fun, and I think it's a commonly overlooked vessel when comparing many different tier 4 DDs. Let's start with the obvious. It has a strange setup. Two forward facing torpedo tubes make for an interesting profile, but this is what makes this German shine. The forward facing torps help you rush enemy BBs and Cruisers without taking much damage. 

For me, my torpedoes reload every 37 seconds, (With TAE) allowing the V-170 to attack BBs while they are reloading or just keep plunging torpedoes into smoke screens. The torpedoes feel very multi-purpose, and the reload time of the torpedoes is another thing that makes me adore this ship. Plus, they reach out to 7.0 km, allowing for stealth torping. 

Artillery is nice as well. Not the fastest firing, but increased AP pen helps citadel CVs and low-armored Cruisers. The fire chance is nice, at 5.0%, and with Dem Expert mastered it makes the V-170 a great BB torcher. 

The maximum speed is excellent, at 35 knots, and with Sierra Mike mounted brings it up to 37.0. It's maneuverable, with a rudder shift of only 2.7 sec, and it has such a small profile that dodging shells is easy. 

All together, the V-170 is one fun ship. An excellent DD for new players to learn on, and a great one for experienced sailors to pick up if they keep getting pounded in the high tiers. A great 'lil guy to train commanders on. 

 

Spoiler

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I have issues. 

 

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Skill setup. I have yet to get Dem Expert. 

 

Edited by Snipereagle23
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V-170 is pretty fun, it's just that she shares the same tier with Clubson and Shenyang.

The forward tubes are funky though.

Edited by warheart1992
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59 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

V-170 is pretty fun, it's just that she shares the same tier with Clubson and Shenyang.

The forward tubes are funky though.

I didn't enjoy the Pan-Asian DDs. Not my kind of ship. The Clemson is okay...

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I have some of my best stats in the V-170. Certainly it did not prepare me for the disappointment that was the V-22.  The problem is, most of the campaign tasks cannot be accomplished with a Tier 4 ship.

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The interesting thing is that the low tier German DDs were very fun.  But once you start climbing higher tiers in this line, they're a lot less fun.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On 11/7/2018 at 7:23 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The interesting thing is that the low tier German DDs were very fun.  But once you start climbing higher tiers in this line, they're a lot less fun.

Where do they start to go downhill?

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The T-22 sucks. 

The Gaede can be frustrating, what with high detection and slow turrets.

But after that, they get a LOT better.  The Maass is the first real cap bully in the game, the Z-23 is a monster bully with by far the most potent guns on a DD in the game, and the Z-46/52 are excellent.

It helps that KM torpedoes are, by far, the most useful ones in the game:  very good range, low detectibility, and good (but not overwhelming) damage, with a fast reload (60 seconds for high-tier KM DDs in some situations).

 

I liked the V-170, but as I don't spend much time playing T4, it's not on my keeper list.

Edited by LAnybody
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13 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

The V-22 sucks. 

The Gaede can be frustrating, what with high detection and slow turrets.

But after that, they get a LOT better.  The Maass is the first real cap bully in the game, the Z-23 is a monster bully with by far the most potent guns on a DD in the game, and the Z-46/52 are excellent.

It helps that KM torpedoes are, by far, the most useful ones in the game:  very good range, low detectibility, and good (but not overwhelming) damage, with a fast reload (60 seconds for high-tier KM DDs in some situations).

 

I liked the V-170, but as I don't spend much time playing T4, it's not on my keeper list.

V-25 to V-170 are nice fun boats especially due to their unique forward firing torps. I take V-170 out from time to time just to relax.

T-22 isn’t as bad as ppl make it out it be. The Torps are quiete fast reloading and decent enough to make the ship work. Her guns are by far enough to shred IJN DDs.

T7 MAASS is a great fun Allrounder. 

 

But saying that Z-23 has the most potent guns on a DD is a very questionable statement. They are large and have good AP against cruisers. But the Russian DD line packs a lot better guns. Even Maass’ guns are better against DD vs DD engagements due to higher DPM. Don’t get me wrong I like Z-23 as well but faster firing guns are in game superior. Grozovoi’s guns for example are quite monstrous. Insane AP, Great RoF, flat arcs, probably my favourites

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50 minutes ago, lron_Dog_of_Jutland said:

But saying that Z-23 has the most potent guns on a DD is a very questionable statement. They are large and have good AP against cruisers. But the Russian DD line packs a lot better guns. Even Maass’ guns are better against DD vs DD engagements due to higher DPM. Don’t get me wrong I like Z-23 as well but faster firing guns are in game superior. Grozovoi’s guns for example are quite monstrous. Insane AP, Great RoF, flat arcs, probably my favourites

No, simply having faster firing guns are not inherently superior, unless you cannot aim.  Remember the Z-23 gets a 5th gun when it upgrades to 150mm - it now has some of the best AP DPM in the game of ANY DD, and  very good HE DPM.  It also has the best HE and AP alpha of any DD at all. Not to mention by far the best HE Fire chance, period (either per salvo OR over time).  And you don't need to invest 3 points in BFT to get this great DPM, or 3 in DE for the fire.

Single-salvo kills in DD knife fights are also extremely important. A single HE salvo from the 150mm can deleted DDs up to just under 3700 HP. 128mm guns can't even get to 3000, and many struggle to get to 2500 per salvo.  Not to mention that the 150mm are vastly more likely to cause module damage than 128mm - much larger splash radius in addition to higher per-hit damage more likely to knock out the module hit.

Moreover, 150mm also does better in pen than 128-class guns:  24mm vs 20mm, which matters a WHOLE lot.  150mm won't shatter on a lot of stuff, whereas 128 shatters on virtually everything not a DD or superstructure.  So the ACTUAL HE DPM of the 150mm is higher than any other DD's, in game, that hasn't taken IFHE.

 

So again, you don't have to spend 7 points on BFT and IFHE to get stellar gun performance. Nothing else in the game can say that. And if you take IFHE on the 150mm, not only do you retain a huge fire chance, but you now can pen 90% of the armor you see on opponents. IFHE on 128-class guns would be lucky to pen 50%.

So you have really excellent guns on a 10-point captain. No other DD can claim that. 

 

DPM is not everything, either.  The 150mm can reliably start a fire in 1 or 2 salvos, at most. The smaller 128mm-class guns require a LOT of shells to get one (including the 130mm on the French/Russian DDs).  And all that time you're blasting away to get a fire, you're visible. The 150mm allows you to spend not more than 7 seconds shooting to get a fire - you'd be lucky to get a fire in twice that of shooting with 128-class guns. Less time shooting for same results = more time being alive.

The 150mm also have the most useful ballistics of all DDs - arc-ing enough to get over all but the largest islands, flat enough that hitting things in a gunfight is easy. This is one of the strengths of all KM DDs, but the rest of the characteristics of the 150mm make this an outstanding utility.  Russian guns are mostly useless behind islands. US/PA/RN guns suffer hitting fast-moving targets at range. IJN guns are anemically slow. 

So, yeah, in reality, the 150mm on the Z-23 are by far the more useful and powerful guns on a DD, regardless of nation AND tier

Edited by LAnybody

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23 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

No, simply having faster firing guns are not inherently superior, unless you cannot aim.  Remember the Z-23 gets a 5th gun when it upgrades to 150mm - it now has some of the best AP DPM in the game of ANY DD, and  very good HE DPM.  It also has the best HE and AP alpha of any DD at all. Not to mention by far the best HE Fire chance, period (either per salvo OR over time).  And you don't need to invest 3 points in BFT to get this great DPM, or 3 in DE for the fire.

Single-salvo kills in DD knife fights are also extremely important. A single HE salvo from the 150mm can deleted DDs up to just under 3700 HP. 128mm guns can't even get to 3000, and many struggle to get to 2500 per salvo.  Not to mention that the 150mm are vastly more likely to cause module damage than 128mm - much larger splash radius in addition to higher per-hit damage more likely to knock out the module hit.

Moreover, 150mm also does better in pen than 128-class guns:  24mm vs 20mm, which matters a WHOLE lot.  150mm won't shatter on a lot of stuff, whereas 128 shatters on virtually everything not a DD or superstructure.  So the ACTUAL HE DPM of the 150mm is higher than any other DD's, in game, that hasn't taken IFHE.

 

So again, you don't have to spend 7 points on BFT and IFHE to get stellar gun performance. Nothing else in the game can say that. And if you take IFHE on the 150mm, not only do you retain a huge fire chance, but you now can pen 90% of the armor you see on opponents. IFHE on 128-class guns would be lucky to pen 50%.

So you have really excellent guns on a 10-point captain. No other DD can claim that. 

 

DPM is not everything, either.  The 150mm can reliably start a fire in 1 or 2 salvos, at most. The smaller 128mm-class guns require a LOT of shells to get one (including the 130mm on the French/Russian DDs).  And all that time you're blasting away to get a fire, you're visible. The 150mm allows you to spend not more than 7 seconds shooting to get a fire - you'd be lucky to get a fire in twice that of shooting with 128-class guns. Less time shooting for same results = more time being alive.

The 150mm also have the most useful ballistics of all DDs - arc-ing enough to get over all but the largest islands, flat enough that hitting things in a gunfight is easy. This is one of the strengths of all KM DDs, but the rest of the characteristics of the 150mm make this an outstanding utility.  Russian guns are mostly useless behind islands. US/PA/RN guns suffer hitting fast-moving targets at range. IJN guns are anemically slow. 

So, yeah, in reality, the 150mm on the Z-23 are by far the more useful and powerful guns on a DD, regardless of nation AND tier

 

Err no (not sure of you are pulling my leg)

 

The 15cm guns are fun and they are somewhat useful against cruisers. But AP DPM doesn’t tell you anything - especially not on a DD. And in a DD vs DD fight it is all about the damage you can pump out in a short time. The 15cm are clearly lacking in this department due to the long reload.

 

But no prob. I let you find out yourself 

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55 minutes ago, lron_Dog_of_Jutland said:

 

Err no (not sure of you are pulling my leg)

 

The 15cm guns are fun and they are somewhat useful against cruisers. But AP DPM doesn’t tell you anything - especially not on a DD. And in a DD vs DD fight it is all about the damage you can pump out in a short time. The 15cm are clearly lacking in this department due to the long reload.

 

But no prob. I let you find out yourself 

As I indicated, pure DPM matters little in a gunfight, and is MUCH less important than other factors in all other situations.  That's from almost 5000 games in DDs talking.  What matters is how hard a shell hits WHEN IT LANDS *plus* the ability to land them, and there's no difference in landing a 150mm than a 128mm (actually, the 150mm are very slightly easier to land, being a faster but heavier shell with a flatter arc). Unless you can't aim at all, and rely on pure ROF to make up from the inability to hit what you shoot at.

f you're taking on full HP opponents in a gunfight on a regular basis, you're not being smart. Because, even if you win, you're going to come out seriously depleted in HP.  That's foolish.  DD gunfights are about stalking a wounded DD and finishing them off with 1 or two salvos. A DD "gunfight" (where both parties are trying to nuke the other) shouldn't last more than 15 seconds. Even in an "extended" engagement (where you're trying to gun down a fleeing opponent), you're seldom engaged more than 30 seconds.

Let's do a little math, on Maass' 5x128mm vs Z-23's 5x150mm, shooting HE:

150mm: 2200/shot, 6.7 second reload. 

128mm: 1500/shot, 4 second reload.

So, for a single salvo, the Z-23 does 45% more damage. In 10 seconds, the Z-23 gets 2 salvos to the Maass' 3, and the DPM is about equal (2% in favor of the Maass). At 15 seconds, it's 3 salvos vs 4, and the Z-23 is ahead again (10%).  At 20 seconds, it's 3 vs 5, 12% in the Maass' favor, and at 30 seconds, it's 5 vs 8, 9% in the Maass' favor.  This of course doesn't take into account the roughly 33% better module damage that the 150mm does.

So, only in a LONG gunfight does the better ROF dominate in damage.  And if you're in a long gunfight, you're a bad DD player. Sorry, but that's the truth. The reality is that the larger per-salvo damage means its easier to delete low-health DDs with the 150mm than it is the 128mm.  That's because DPM is in discrete values, and isn't a continuous smooth curve. You can't do a partial shell hit's worth of damage.

Vs a 6-gun Z-46 or Z-52 or Russian DD, yes, their better turret rotation vs the Z-23 multiplies the additional barrel's advantages.  But against a T8 Kiev, for instance, the Z-23 trades even.

 

And you completely glossed over what I pointed out - that the 150mm are VASTLY superior in most other situations, especially in fire-starting (where, in a 30-second engagement, a Z-23 has over 25% better chance to start a fire than the Maass), and actual damage caused to anything but DDs - that is, any target which has armor.  

Don't presume that the AP is only for shooting at cruisers. AP (of either 128mm or 150mm) is what you farm damage on BB superstructures with, and the Z-23+150mm AP totally dominates every single other DD in DPM of any duration (where you actually WILL sit and farm for a minute or more).  Notice good Russian players fire AP once they've got any sort of a not-completely-angled BB or CA to shoot at.  Same for good KM players.

150mm is also not "somewhat" useful against cruisers. At mid and close range, it's a MONSTER.  Mid-range it easily penetrates bow, stern, and superstructure without shattering (something 128mm AP, let alone HE, has problems doing). At close ranges, it will citadel T10 cruisers. Yeah, at 2km you can punch right through the BELT armor on a Des Moines or even Kronstadht for citadels. No 130mm or less can do that.  Yes, you have to have somewhat of a broadside to shoot at. But that's fairly often.

 

But hey, what do I know. I've only played Z-23s close to 800 games and have over a 65% WR in them.  The Z-23 itself isn't a super-monster (it has noticeable weaknesses, as it is a T8, after all), but the guns are absolutely the best in the game on a DD.  It fits with the german "flavor" of a "Jack of All Trades" line.

Edited by LAnybody
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12 hours ago, LAnybody said:

The V-22 sucks. 

 

(V-22?) Do you mean T-22? There's no DD with that name.

If you mean V-25, I enjoyed the V-25, G-101, and of course the V-170. I have the same number of kills/battles in my 170. 

Spoiler

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Average of 1.05 kills per battle :cap_rambo:

 

 

Edited by Snipereagle23

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I should have said T-22, not V-22.  The successor to the V-170 as the T5 KM DD. It's the runt of the KM DD line, and by far the least fun and least successful of them all. 

 

(I went back up and edited the post to correct my mistake)

Edited by LAnybody

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2 hours ago, LAnybody said:

I should have said T-22, not V-22.  The successor to the V-170 as the T5 KM DD. It's the runt of the KM DD line, and by far the least fun and least successful of them all. 

 

(I went back up and edited the post to correct my mistake)

Yeah, I heard so much bad stuff about the T-22 that I didn't even buy it. 

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9 hours ago, Snipereagle23 said:

Yeah, I heard so much bad stuff about the T-22 that I didn't even buy it. 

It used to be terrible but is okish now after some buffs. Torps are decent and fast reloading and the guns are good enough to fight equal tier DDs. It is still not good but wouldn’t waste Free XP tbh it is at least playable 

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On 12/3/2018 at 8:39 AM, lron_Dog_of_Jutland said:

It used to be terrible but is okish now after some buffs. Torps are decent and fast reloading and the guns are good enough to fight equal tier DDs. It is still not good but wouldn’t waste Free XP tbh it is at least playable 

I'll check it out again, thanks. 

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