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Radical_20

Is Captain Skill meta inherently flawed?

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Is the current meta regarding captain skills flawed? I believe it is.

I watched Notser's youtube video regarding Concealment Expert skill (at level 4) and how (probably) everybody elects to train that skill. Thus rendering it useless. But it got me to thinking, it's only an advantage for the player with a 10 pt captain, versus a player with less than a 10 pt captain. Then that got me to thinking about captain skills as a whole.

Let us examine the abilities of a player with a year or more of experience, versus the player that started playing last week.

 

The experienced player has hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of game play experience to call upon. He/she has an advantage.

But also, that time spent has also allowed him/her to level up the captain(s) under his/her command. Also an advantage.

As such, the experienced player has "double dipped" from the experience pool.

If you imagine a chess game. The experience player gets all 16 pieces. The new player, only gets 5. The new player has to struggle/grind through game after game, at a double disadvantage, earning more pieces. It's an uphill battle.

 

There really isn't a simple way to mitigate the player experience advantage, but the second advantage could be mitigated.

Do away with captain XP, and that mechanic. Every captain, once recruited, gets 19 points right off the bat. The player personalizes the captain to his/her tastes. This gives both players all 16 chess pieces from the beginning.

 

Thoughts?

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4 minutes ago, Radical_20 said:

Is the current meta regarding captain skills flawed? I believe it is.

I watched Notser's youtube video regarding Concealment Expert skill (at level 4) and how (probably) everybody elects to train that skill. Thus rendering it useless. But it got me to thinking, it's only an advantage for the player with a 10 pt captain, versus a player with less than a 10 pt captain. Then that got me to thinking about captain skills as a whole.

Let us examine the abilities of a player with a year or more of experience, versus the player that started playing last week.

 

The experienced player has hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of game play experience to call upon. He/she has an advantage.

But also, that time spent has also allowed him/her to level up the captain(s) under his/her command. Also an advantage.

As such, the experienced player has "double dipped" from the experience pool.

If you imagine a chess game. The experience player gets all 16 pieces. The new player, only gets 5. The new player has to struggle/grind through game after game, at a double disadvantage, earning more pieces. It's an uphill battle.

 

There really isn't a simple way to mitigate the player experience advantage, but the second advantage could be mitigated.

Do away with captain XP, and that mechanic. Every captain, once recruited, gets 19 points right off the bat. The player personalizes the captain to his/her tastes. This gives both players all 16 chess pieces from the beginning.

 

Thoughts?

My thought is you are trying to skip the work of making your captain 19 points by asking WG to give everyone 19 points off the bat. Those with 19 point captains deserve any advantage they have since they EARNED it by leveling their captain.

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Is it a good idea? Sure. Will it happen? Not in a million years. Wargaming depends on that process to make money since only premium ships allow players to move around captains for free. If every ship you owned gave you a 19 point captain right when you purchase it, it would remove probably the single biggest incentive to own premium ships.

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13 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

My thought is you are trying to skip the work of making your captain 19 points by asking WG to give everyone 19 points off the bat. Those with 19 point captains deserve any advantage they have since they EARNED it by leveling their captain.

Couldn't be further from the truth....  I have multiple 19 pt captains.

I'm trying to look at it from a fairness perspective. The experienced players have both the time they've spent playing the game.. .AND... they've got the 19 pt captains as well. Is that fair to the newb?

Shouldn't the hours of game-play I've done be enough of an advantage against a newcomer? Or do you want Wargaming to disable their 'fire' button so they can't shoot at you as well?

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I would like them to have captain levels have baked in bonuses for specific things such as CE, and the tree to be rebalanced to all either A) meaningfully affect how you play or B) just add flavor like current which just slightly modifies certain ship attributes.

The problem right now is that the skills range from worthless to mandatory.  If I had to choose between say AR and a 2 pt skill that healed my boat for 10% every time I hit DC or something, well now I have an interesting choice to go hp monster or dpm.

Edited by FlakKnight

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TBH, past 10 points it is a matter of diminishing returns. You get your most important tier 1, 2, 3 and 4 skill, and everything after that is a matter of "that's nice to have" and not a must have.

Also, contrary to what some people believe, Concealment Expert is not the best choice for a lot of ships, Gun DD's that even with it will be out-spotted by torp and general purpose DD's don't really need it, especially needing IFHE, AFT and RPF and many of the battleships it's a waste of points on.

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29 minutes ago, Radical_20 said:

Couldn't be further from the truth....  I have multiple 19 pt captains.

I'm trying to look at it from a fairness perspective. The experienced players have both the time they've spent playing the game.. .AND... they've got the 19 pt captains as well. Is that fair to the newb?

Shouldn't the hours of game-play I've done be enough of an advantage against a newcomer? Or do you want Wargaming to disable their 'fire' button so they can't shoot at you as well?

It is extremely fair as it is. Someone wants to play with a 19 point captain they earn it like everyone else has.  Like I said those using 19 point captains earned the right to be better than a 10 pointer.

 

I do not worry about my "hours of gameplay" versus others since I pretty much only play T10 everyone there should be a big boy by now.

Edited by Vaffu
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44 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Is it a good idea? Sure. Will it happen? Not in a million years. Wargaming depends on that process to make money since only premium ships allow players to move around captains for free. If every ship you owned gave you a 19 point captain right when you purchase it, it would remove probably the single biggest incentive to own premium ships. 

Sadly, you probably hit the nail on the head.

I should have titled the thread "Is the captain skill meta unfair to new players?"  and it would have been more accurate.

The game was/is developed to make the Wargaming money. But I wonder if they're loosing potential customers because a new comer shows up, and gets outplayed by experienced players not only because the experienced players have that experience, but also because they have better weapons.

MM tries to counter that, by matching tier-by-tier. But it doesn't take into account captain skill, or player experience.

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1 minute ago, Radical_20 said:

Sadly, you probably hit the nail on the head.

I should have titled the thread "Is the captain skill meta unfair to new players?"  and it would have been more accurate.

The game was/is developed to make the Wargaming money. But I wonder if they're loosing potential customers because a new comer shows up, and gets outplayed by experienced players not only because the experienced players have that experience, but also because they have better weapons.

MM tries to counter that, by matching tier-by-tier. But it doesn't take into account captain skill, or player experience.

There are low tiers for people to sharpen their personal skills along with captain skill points. I see no reason for penalizing those that put the work in to make a full 19 point captain.

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3 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

It is extremely fair as it is. Someone wants to play with a 19 point captain they earn it like everyone else has.  Like I said those using 19 point captains earned the right to be better than a 10 pointer.

Let's say you and I have the same ship. You've played the game for thousands of hours, and I am new.

So, as a new player.. I shouldn't oh.. maybe not be able to shoot as fast as you because I haven't earned it yet? Or I shouldn't be rotate the turret as fast as you because I haven't earned it yet? Or you can see me before I see you because I haven't earned it yet?


Let's say you've played thousands of hours.. shouldn't that be enough?


There's nothing stopping you from moving your 19 point captain into a tier 3 ship and seal club us newbs.. Is that fair?


When you were starting out, did you like it when you were the seal?  And now that you've earned the right to be the clubber, you're OK with the system?

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36 minutes ago, Radical_20 said:

Couldn't be further from the truth....  I have multiple 19 pt captains.

I'm trying to look at it from a fairness perspective. The experienced players have both the time they've spent playing the game.. .AND... they've got the 19 pt captains as well. Is that fair to the newb?

Shouldn't the hours of game-play I've done be enough of an advantage against a newcomer? Or do you want Wargaming to disable their 'fire' button so they can't shoot at you as well?

YOU got to your 19 point captains the same way EVERYONE ELSE IS.....

so NO... not a good idea at all.. I was a NEWB once too... as were you,,, and the Newbs we have now will get their 19 point capts just as fast as you, maybe even FASTER with the current game as it is with FLAGS FOR DAYS with all kinds of capt perks....
Remember when  situational awareness was something you had to TRAIN FOR???
the newbs don't... they already have it...

why would you want to give them an advantage over the game by giving them what we all busted our assses for...

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4 minutes ago, Radical_20 said:

Sadly, you probably hit the nail on the head.

I should have titled the thread "Is the captain skill meta unfair to new players?"  and it would have been more accurate.

The game was/is developed to make the Wargaming money. But I wonder if they're loosing potential customers because a new comer shows up, and gets outplayed by experienced players not only because the experienced players have that experience, but also because they have better weapons.

MM tries to counter that, by matching tier-by-tier. But it doesn't take into account captain skill, or player experience.

 

I do not understand the idea of "fairness" or the conspiracy theories of Wargaming screwing people to make money. This is a game of competence, skill, knowledge, intelligence, and perseverance. None of the preceding characteristics are "fairly" distributed to people. Some players will always be better than others. Experienced players will almost always defeat inexperienced players. What is the goal here? Get everyone closer to a 50% win rate or simply make the game very easy? What is your goal, @Radical_20

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1 minute ago, Radical_20 said:

Let's say you and I have the same ship. You've played the game for thousands of hours, and I am new.

So, as a new player.. I shouldn't oh.. maybe not be able to shoot as fast as you because I haven't earned it yet? Or I shouldn't be rotate the turret as fast as you because I haven't earned it yet? Or you can see me before I see you because I haven't earned it yet?


Let's say you've played thousands of hours.. shouldn't that be enough?


There's nothing stopping you from moving your 19 point captain into a tier 3 ship and seal club us newbs.. Is that fair?


When you were starting out, did you like it when you were the seal?  And now that you've earned the right to be the clubber, you're OK with the system?

AGAIN... you got to where you are by getting clubbed and getting GOOD.... no it's THEIR turn... please stop trying to troll us with "GIVE THE NEWBS OUR STUFF in stead of them earning what WE BUSTED OUR HUMPS TO GET>.. its just GD silly

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1 hour ago, Radical_20 said:

Is the current meta regarding captain skills flawed? I believe it is.

I watched Notser's youtube video regarding Concealment Expert skill (at level 4) and how (probably) everybody elects to train that skill. Thus rendering it useless. But it got me to thinking, it's only an advantage for the player with a 10 pt captain, versus a player with less than a 10 pt captain. Then that got me to thinking about captain skills as a whole.

Let us examine the abilities of a player with a year or more of experience, versus the player that started playing last week.

 

The experienced player has hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of game play experience to call upon. He/she has an advantage.

But also, that time spent has also allowed him/her to level up the captain(s) under his/her command. Also an advantage.

As such, the experienced player has "double dipped" from the experience pool.

If you imagine a chess game. The experience player gets all 16 pieces. The new player, only gets 5. The new player has to struggle/grind through game after game, at a double disadvantage, earning more pieces. It's an uphill battle.

 

There really isn't a simple way to mitigate the player experience advantage, but the second advantage could be mitigated.

Do away with captain XP, and that mechanic. Every captain, once recruited, gets 19 points right off the bat. The player personalizes the captain to his/her tastes. This gives both players all 16 chess pieces from the beginning.

 

Thoughts?

you want us to believe that example is what the game is about to new players???

it is hard to imagine anything than BAIT for this thread as motive as you have several 19 point capts but want to give NEWBS an advantage we never had as newbs....

 

every NEWB will soon be in for thousands of battles.... and will have an advantage over newbs.... and over it repeats... and over...
 

Edited by neptunes_wrath

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1 minute ago, neptunes_wrath said:

AGAIN... you got to where you are by getting clubbed and getting GOOD.... no it's THEIR turn... please stop trying to troll us with "GIVE THE NEWBS OUR STUFF in stead of them earning what WE BUSTED OUR HUMPS TO GET>.. its just GD silly

I'm sorry this wreaks of  "This is the way it's always been, and this is the way it always should be."

So... If I got bullied as a little kid.. it's perfectly OK to be the bully after I got older? Because it's my turn to be the bully? It's now some younger kid's to get be bullied?

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1 minute ago, Radical_20 said:

I'm sorry this wreaks of  "This is the way it's always been, and this is the way it always should be."

So... If I got bullied as a little kid.. it's perfectly OK to be the bully after I got older? Because it's my turn to be the bully? It's now some younger kid's to get be bullied?

Np00X5p.gif

 

 

you are giving terrible examples of a video game that REWARDS HARD WORK... as opposed to a bully... thats just a GD STUPID analogy dude... and I have nothing more to ad to this ridiculous thread   as you will not accept ANY ANSWER other than "YES MAN YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!!!"

 

 

I7d4QeH.gif

 

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10 minutes ago, Radical_20 said:

Let's say you and I have the same ship. You've played the game for thousands of hours, and I am new.

So, as a new player.. I shouldn't oh.. maybe not be able to shoot as fast as you because I haven't earned it yet? Or I shouldn't be rotate the turret as fast as you because I haven't earned it yet? Or you can see me before I see you because I haven't earned it yet?


Let's say you've played thousands of hours.. shouldn't that be enough?


There's nothing stopping you from moving your 19 point captain into a tier 3 ship and seal club us newbs.. Is that fair?


When you were starting out, did you like it when you were the seal?  And now that you've earned the right to be the clubber, you're OK with the system?

Now you are starting to catch on. People with 19 point captains earned the right to be more powerful and can use them on whatever tier they want.

When I started out the game was new and I was never really seal clubbed nor do I ever play low tiers for that purpose but if I wanted to I certainly would use a 19 point captain because I earned it.

So yes. I am perfectly fine with the system.

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2 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

Now you are starting to catch on. People with 19 point captains earned the right to be more powerful and can use them on whatever tier they want.

When I started out the game was new and I was never really seal clubbed nor do I ever play low tiers for that purpose but if I wanted to I certainly would use a 19 point captain because I earned it.

So yes. I am perfectly fine with the system.

3NaDSOF.gif

 

and yes   my umikaze  and CLemson have a 19 point capt in it...
yHKbBAr.gif

Edited by neptunes_wrath
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1 minute ago, neptunes_wrath said:

e0lBnKB.jpg

You have way too many memes available at moments notice. Haha

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uhh no. Longer play time also gives you nice rewards. 

Also, frankly, capt skills are important (esp essentials) but frankly, I ranked out with 12 and 14 pt captains more than I did with 19pt capts. The ships, the rank, my own play skills dramatically overwhelmed the advantage of a high level captain. 

In other words, if you're a potato, having a 19pt captain simply makes you a potato still. 

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