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KaptainKaybe

Vanguard Buffs as per Dev Blog

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Oh this is MUCH better.

- Concealment is noticeably worse
- Shells have normal BB fuse times again.
- Citadel is significantly lowered, being just barely over the waterline. More vulnerable than tech tree RN BBs, but still MUCH better than before.
- Rudder is *greatly* improved. To cruiser levels.
- Repair cooldown dropped to 60 seconds.

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Does this give her the worst BB concealment in the RN tree? 

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4 minutes ago, STINKWEED_ said:

Does this give her the worst BB concealment in the RN tree? 

Well, in the tier 8+, yes. Hood and Nelson still have worse. Roughly, the new minimum surface concealment will hover around 12 or 12.1km. Which given all the other buffs, I am more than okay with.

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6 minutes ago, STINKWEED_ said:

Does this give her the worst BB concealment in the RN tree? 

Hood's a bit worse. Hood has a 16.2 km base detection range.

I like the idea of a super dancy BB though. Even with the so-so T6 15" Gun (and only 8 of them) at T8, a BB that can change direction every 7.2 seconds (with upgrades applied) is an interesting thing. They should give her the RN Cruiser/DD acceleration and turn speed preservation. Up her detection a hair to 16.5 km default and you have a very interesting ship.

Edited by _RC1138
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1 minute ago, _RC1138 said:

Hood's a bit worse. Hood has a 16.2 km base detection range.

I like the idea of a super dancy BB though. Even with the so-so T6 15" Gun (and only 8 of them) at T8, a BB that can change direction every 7.2 seconds (with upgrades applied) is an interesting thing. They should give her the RN Cruiser/DD acceleration.

It's my understanding that the shells on Vanguard will be much better. Aside from the fact that they do a bit more damage, clearly indicating a different shell, they also have much better muzzel firing velocity. Meaning they'll have better penetration. I don't know what the krupp on this is.

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6 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

It's my understanding that the shells on Vanguard will be much better. Aside from the fact that they do a bit more damage, clearly indicating a different shell, they also have much better muzzel firing velocity. Meaning they'll have better penetration. I don't know what the krupp on this is.

The issue is that they are 15" guns at T8, which means ~2/3's of the Cruisers she'll see she cannot overmatch. And with a 30 second reload (as it should) there is a real issue with being out DPM'd even by other T8 Cruisers like Mogami (although to be fair, the Mogami can out DPM MOST of the T8 BB's). But if they make her Dancy as hell, then she can be a mid-long range tank, always spotted yes (like GK or Yamato) but dancy enough to cause most salvos to miss. If she gets the speed preservation/acceleration of the RN Cruisers/DD, then she might not have much in the way of teeth, but she could outlast/draw fire better than most cruisers.

I don't collate the Rudder shift times, and am too lazy to add a new line of code to grab them: does anyone know if this is the fastest Rudder shift in a T6 or higher BB? I think it is, but I'm not sure.

Edited by _RC1138
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Not sure why they are having such a hard time with this ship. Its literally a Lion hull with 4 15" turrets. Shouldn't take this much effort. 

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Just now, Gen_Saris said:

Not sure why they are having such a hard time with this ship. Its literally a Lion hull with 4 15" turrets. Shouldn't take this much effort. 

The hard time is coming from the problem of a tiering system instead of a sandbox. It's T8 not tier 9, which means she isn't balanced with the T9+ perks in mind; so no special RN heal to make durability an afterthought (and make up for the alarming about of 32mm plating for CA's and IFHE 152mm CL's hungry), nor does she have guns appropriate to the time tier (BL 15" mK2's at T8 are ify).

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2 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

The issue is that they are 15" guns at T8, which means ~2/3's of the Cruisers she'll see she cannot overmatch. And with a 30 second reload (as it should) there is a real issue with being out DPM'd even by other T8 Cruisers like Mogami (although to be fair, the Mogami can out DPM MOST of the T8 BB's). But if they make her Dancy as hell, then she can be a mid-long range tank, always spotted yes (like GK or Yamato) but dancy enough to cause most salvos to miss. If she gets the speed preservation/acceleration of the RN Cruisers/DD, then she might not have much in the way of teeth, but she could outlast/draw fire better than most cruisers.

There's only two ship lines that have 27mm bows at tier 8 and up: USN Heavy Cruisers and German Heavy Cruisers.
There are five that have 25mm bows and gets overmatched by 15 inch shells: USN Light Cruisers, RN cruisers, Russian Cruisers, French Cruisers, IJN cruisers.
So it's more 2/7ths, not 2/3rds, lol.

Also, here are the list of other tier 8 battleships that use 15 inch shells: Bismarck, Tirpitz, Monarch, Gascogne, Richelieu, Roma. Really, only the USN and IJN BBs at tier 8 use 16 inch shells.

And *obviously*, cruisers will out DPM this ship. ALL cruisers out DPM battleships. What keeps them in check is the lack of penetration power that battleships have.

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Just now, _RC1138 said:

The hard time is coming from the problem of a tiering system instead of a sandbox. It's T8 not tier 9, which means she isn't balanced with the T9+ perks in mind; so no special RN heal to make durability an afterthought (and make up for the alarming about of 32mm plating for CA's and IFHE 152mm CL's hungry), nor does she have guns appropriate to the time tier (BL 15" mK2's at T8 are ify).

So it's a tier 9 hull with tier 7 guns. Sounds like a solid fit at tier 8 to me. 

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Interesting that they choose to re-do 'Repair Party' as 'Repair Team'.

The India-Delta +20%/s repair signal only applies to Repair Party specifically, for instance it doesn't work on Magnu-S's 'Repair Zone'.

Therefore getting a 0.6%/s repair is exactly the same as the 0.5%+signal repair of any other ship. It just saves you a signal. The improved repair on Warspite gets to stack with the India-Delta. Improved cooldown is very nice.

 

These look like generally sensible tradeoffs, the rudder lets you at least take some control of your own destiny for avoiding showing too much broadside to shoot. The citadel is also an improvement. Reducing concealment (and with the CE change add another 2% compared to currently) is a good idea for cruisers.

Normal fuses will actually allow you to try and use battleship guns as intended, Vanguard does have reasonably better AP than Monarch, though it's second-weakest penetration at T8, at least you can try and use that anti-battleship rather than just having your short-fuses deny citadels anyway.

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Just now, Gen_Saris said:

So it's a tier 9 hull with tier 7 guns. Sounds like a solid fit at tier 8 to me. 

Actually, her hull is both worse and better than Lion's: Less health, but worse citadel.
Her guns are also very much tier 8 as they are comparable in velocity to Bismarck's while having better sigma but slightly worse reload.

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4 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

There's only two ship lines that have 27mm bows at tier 8 and up: USN Heavy Cruisers and German Heavy Cruisers.
There are five that have 25mm bows and gets overmatched by 15 inch shells: USN Light Cruisers, RN cruisers, Russian Cruisers, French Cruisers, IJN cruisers.
So it's more 2/7ths, not 2/3rds, lol.

Also, here are the list of other tier 8 battleships that use 15 inch shells: Bismarck, Tirpitz, Monarch, Gascogne, Richelieu, Roma. Really, only the USN and IJN BBs at tier 8 use 16 inch shells.

And *obviously*, cruisers will out DPM this ship. ALL cruisers out DPM battleships. What keeps them in check is the lack of penetration power that battleships have.

You're missing the fact that within her tier range, not only does she see those two lines, but their premiums as well (Pinz, Salem, Alaska), and the other ships with odd ball plating like the Stalingrad. Also the Moskva has faux bow that is essentially 50 mm thick (that belt is a bit too high IMO) as you cannot actually cit it through the front (other than barbet pens). And you're missing the full story: the Bismarck twins have 28 second reloads to buff their DPM (plus very high MV), as do the Rich and Roma, and the Monarch, who all have superior gun layouts and/or more shells per salvo.

Edited by _RC1138
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a tier8 warspite?well that looks good now.

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1 minute ago, mofton said:

Interesting that they choose to re-do 'Repair Party' as 'Repair Team'.

The India-Delta +20%/s repair signal only applies to Repair Party specifically, for instance it doesn't work on Magnu-S's 'Repair Zone'.

Therefore getting a 0.6%/s repair is exactly the same as the 0.5%+signal repair of any other ship. It just saves you a signal. The improved repair on Warspite gets to stack with the India-Delta. Improved cooldown is very nice.

Pretty certain it's just a translation mistype. Every BB in the game that's not an event ship has Repair Party. They won't make an exception to this ship.

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1 minute ago, Cruxdei said:

a tier8 warspite?well that looks good now.

Warspite is stealth w/ short range and insanely powerful/accurate guns (highest accuracy of any BB in the game at the moment overall (when considering dispersion and sigma together, obvious Yamato has a higher simga but worse dispersion). This seems like a medium range tank that keeps enemies wasting salvos on it.

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2 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

 And you're missing the full story: the Bismarck twins have 28 second reloads to buff their DPM (plus very high MV), as do the Rich and Roma, and the Monarch, who all have superior gun layouts and/or more shells per salvo.

I will be disappointed if she comes out with a 30s reload for twin 15" turrets. The fast reload is one thing which makes Monarch playable. 

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1 minute ago, _RC1138 said:

You're missing the fact that within her tier range, not only does she see those two lines, but their premiums as well. Also the Moskva has faux bow that is essentially 50 mm thick (that belt is a bit too high IMO) as you cannot actually cit it through the front (other than barbet pens). And you're missing the full story: the Bismarck twins have 28 second reloads to buff their DPM (plus very high MV), as do the Rich and Roma, and the Monarch, who all have superior gun layouts and/or more shells per salvo.

You don't balance a tier 8 ship by comparing her to tier 10. You balance tier 8 ships by comparing them to other tier 8 ships. Also, Vanguard has a 28s reload while the Bismarcks I believe are at 26. Gascogne has a 28 second reload while Richelieu has a 30 second reload. Monarch has 25 seconds, but Monarch has shells with really bad pen.

RC, no offense, but that's twice already on this thread where you misquote stats. I strongly urge you to read up on the dev blog and the WOWS Wiki before commenting.

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Just now, Gen_Saris said:

I will be disappointed if she comes out with a 30s reload for twin 15" turrets. The fast reload is one thing which makes Monarch playable. 

No way she's not going to have a 30 second reload, and she should (the real one did, only a few tests managed to get it down to 25 seconds and that didn't include re-aligning the barrels). But if they make her EVER so slightly dancyer, with an upgraded rudder at 7 secs and faster acceleration/turn speed preservation, she would be VERY different than any existing BB, but interesting nontheless.

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2 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Warspite is stealth w/ short range and insanely powerful/accurate guns (highest accuracy of any BB in the game at the moment overall (when considering dispersion and sigma together, obvious Yamato has a higher simga but worse dispersion). This seems like a medium range tank that keeps enemies wasting salvos on it.

yeah,that's how i played my warspite. at medium range,bouncing people and hitting all 8 shells.

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6 minutes ago, Gen_Saris said:

I will be disappointed if she comes out with a 30s reload for twin 15" turrets. The fast reload is one thing which makes Monarch playable. 

Wrong.

Monarch is unplayable.

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2 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

You don't balance a tier 8 ship by comparing her to tier 10.

You balance ships by what they can see throughout their tier spread. That's why some ships have gotten heals and others have not. Among T8's, the Prinz Eugen was fine, it didn't need heal. Nor did the Atago, but against T9 and T10's they were failing MISERABLY (as was the Hipper) and as such were buffed. Same was true for the Baltimore of old; it was the worst ship in the game and was buffed to make it somewhat playable against T10's (especially T10 planes as it initially had TERRIBLE AA stats and then had the best AA stats (at the time)). So comparing her against the T10's is 100% valid especially with a Premium which they've done so in the past with.

As far as the rest, I mixed up Bismarck and and Gasc, and I was not implying that Roma/Rich had reduce reloads, but rather far more comfortable guns than the Vanguard who has very bad firing angles AS well as a 2x4 arrangement.

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3 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

No way she's not going to have a 30 second reload, and she should (the real one did, only a few tests managed to get it down to 25 seconds and that didn't include re-aligning the barrels).

Remember, arcade NOT simulation. The KGV class sure weren't firing every 25s, even under ideal conditions. In the engagement vs Bismarck they could barely get the guns to fire at all. 

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Also, side note, in doing a cursory look through the Wiki, no BB in the entire GAME has a rudder shift that low. Mikasa is the closest at slightly over 10 seconds.

At her tier, she can, with modifications, get her rudder shift down to 7.776, which is lower than the unupgraded default close to a number of cruisers, like Mogami, faster than Atago, about equal to Baltimore, almost faster than the UPGRADED Hipper, outright faster than the upgraded Pinz, and faster than than even the upgraded T10 CA's Hinde and Moskva. That's a serious thing.

7 minutes ago, Gen_Saris said:

Remember, arcade NOT simulation. The KGV class sure weren't firing every 25s, even under ideal conditions. In the engagement vs Bismarck they could barely get the guns to fire at all. 

They also didn't arbitarily set platting and overmatch is not a real thing, but we have *some* real limitations and the Vanguard should not be a Machine gun, not when the same guns, and some of the same TURRETS are on other ships that do not have <30 second reloads.

 

Edited by _RC1138
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