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deresistance

Remove Situational Awareness - Fixes many problems

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Situational Awareness is the most powerful skill in the game given to all ships.   It used to NOT be this way many years ago.   I think we should remove this skill and priority target.     however I believe you can keep Incoming Fire and Radio Location.   So why remove such a core mechanic? 

  • This will fix the radar problem - Radar is simple in use when you know your detected you pop it, every DD knows this has been a balance problem for far to long
  • it will allow for more strategic play since no one will know if they are spotted or not.  
  • It would make skills like Incoming Fire very valuable without being such a huge power curve
  • What do ships do when they are first spotted?  Typically they turn, maneuver, which is a massive advantage when really you should do that once you see shells in the air.  
  • Surprise attacks are actually a thing again.    I know hydro/radar goes through terrain but least that is not nearly as impactful as Situational awareness. 

The balancing issue is that there is to much information given to the player.    Imagine if in an FPS you had an indicator knowing a player was looking at you.   it would dramatically change how the game is played.   People would bunny hop, duck for cover etc.  You wouldn't get your first surprise shot like you should. 

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OK.  In the old days, how did a battle group know they've been detected?  The first water spouts nearby?  The first torpedo track?  The first DD calling in an observation?  The first CAP calling in contact?  All of this, pre-1942 or until radar changed the game.  Now, and most specifically, OTH spotting became the "expansion of the battle space", which, I might add, had terrible accuracy issues..........  The extra distance allowed for greater choices in deployments and weapons systems.....and, since there weren't any weapons to do so, SA became really important when battle groups closed....

That is UNTIL, aircraft changed the entire game....  AC operate outside of LOS guns and torps....(except maybe the Type 93 torp....)

WG needs to make up its mind and soon.....  Pre-radar or post-radar becomes LOS or OTH; and, if OTH, only two weapons apply: missiles or aircraft....

OP:  situational awareness becomes "something else" at some point.....  If WG goes pre-radar, you thread makes sense.  Post radar:  SA is called Radar and Sonar to include aircraft and sub radars....

Edited by Asym_KS

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32 minutes ago, deresistance said:

it will allow for more strategic play since no one will know if they are spotted or not.

It will encourage behind-island camping like nothing else on earth.

No, a thousand times no. The fact that SA is built into every ship these days is the ONLY thing that gives a lot of players the nerve to venture out, IMO. There's a reason they put it in. You might want to reflect for a while on what that might have been.

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Just now, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

It will encourage behind-island camping like nothing else on earth.

No, a thousand times no. The fact that SA is built into every ship these days is the ONLY thing that gives a lot of players the nerve to venture out, IMO. There's a reason they put it in. You might want to reflect for a while on what that might have been.

I see your point but island camping is already a thing.   Ships who require is already do it.   The ones who need to venture out are brawlers and DDs.    I would argue the point of knowing your spotted means you turn around.   We see it all the time.   When a DD spots a BB, CA they often turn and leave LOL. 

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The game as it stands today is a very complex interaction of a large number of variables.  SA is so intertwined in the complexity it cannot simply be removed.   For example, for most radar ships, detection exceeds radar range.  This delta is carefully managed by WG during the design of a ship's stats.  If SA is removed from the equation, then radar is no longer managed against a threshold.  Balance would require extending the radar ranges or duration of ships.  This would upset other balances issues....etc.  In our zeal to "fix" a perceived problem with SA, we get a cascading snowball of other problems.   

Edited by Soshi_Sone
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2 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

I imagine salt is being delivered soon.

 

 uwtB4B9.gif

We all know WG isn't going to remove this.   I just want people to think about how much of an impact it is.  DDs hate radar not because it exist, its that anytime a cruiser is spotted he can instantly pop radar and counter it.   Its powerfully mostly because its a counter to situational awareness.     Have to say imagine putting this in an FPS how drastically different it changes the game.

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1 minute ago, deresistance said:

I see your point but island camping is already a thing.  

But not the only thing.

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45 minutes ago, deresistance said:

Situational Awareness is the most powerful skill in the game given to all ships.

Perhaps WG can create a new "Hardcore Random" mode.  where perks like SA are removed. and radar doesn't go through mountains. and you can only see LOS ships. 

But i live and die by that little pop up of information. Newbies need it to learn the game. 

Also, its one thing if all ships were Line of sight. but detection means your team sees you too. 

Edited by skillztowin
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If you want something removed, remove proxy spotting.  Show ships spotted by teammates only on the minimap.

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10 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

It will encourage behind-island camping like nothing else on earth.

No, a thousand times no. The fact that SA is built into every ship these days is the ONLY thing that gives a lot of players the nerve to venture out, IMO. There's a reason they put it in. You might want to reflect for a while on what that might have been.

Honestly, it couldn't make things any worse. SA is now the turn and run indicator. "Oops, detected, time to head for the J line". I propose WG install a pennant on each ship. The pennant will read " It's just a game, all damage heals in 20 minutes or less, now grow a pair and get in there."

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I totally agree with you, I say get rid of long range incoming fire alerts...noting more frustrating than having that cruiser lined up perfectly, you click the button and instantly they start maneuvering. Not a fan of RDF either......the game was much more fun before Wargaming started dumbing down the game to accommodate the low skill level NPC that makes up the majority of the players in this game.

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8 minutes ago, deresistance said:

We all know WG isn't going to remove this.   I just want people to think about how much of an impact it is.  DDs hate radar not because it exist, its that anytime a cruiser is spotted he can instantly pop radar and counter it.   Its powerfully mostly because its a counter to situational awareness.     Have to say imagine putting this in an FPS how drastically different it changes the game.

I can actually spot a cleveland before he can radar me. As I believe the case is with all radat cruisers. So if they're popping radar the instance they are spotted they are wasting it in most cases. Removing SA would seriously change the way the game is played. At first there might be some very fast battles till players decided to go to a sneaking game just to stay alive longer. 

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5 minutes ago, skillztowin said:

Perhaps WG can create a new "Hardcore Random" mode.  where perks like SA are removed. and radar doesn't go through mountains. 

I know myself as well as a few CCs wanted a "realism" mode where it stripped the UI of tons of info.   I am all for this.

 

1 minute ago, MikeLWX said:

If you want something removed, remove proxy spotting.  Show ships spotted by teammates only on the minimap.

I don't think its a bad idea it would slow the game down a lot.   I would make 1 change at a time and test.   

 

2 minutes ago, Doombeagle said:

Honestly, it couldn't make things any worse. SA is now the turn and run indicator. "Oops, detected, time to head for the J line". I propose WG install a pennant on each ship. The pennant will read " It's just a game, all damage heals in 20 minutes or less, now grow a pair and get in there."

I agree it fundamentally changes how the game is played because of this little indicator.  Watch any twitch scream doing shooty boats...   That indicator dictates their every move

 

15 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

The game as it stands today is a very complex interaction of a large number of variables.  SA is so intertwined in the complexity it cannot simply be removed.   For example, for most radar ships, detection exceeds radar range.  This delta is carefully managed by WG during the design of a ship's stats.  If SA is removed from the equation, then radar is no longer managed against a threshold.  Balance would require extending the radar ranges or duration of ships.  This would upset other balances issues....etc.  In our zeal to "fix" a perceived problem with SA, we get a cascading snowball of other problems.   

.  100% a re balance would be required.  But if radar were longer distance would that be an issue?    Besides radar through terrain, its not that radar exist.  Its that its a counter to situational awareness.   Would it impact other items, I am sure.    But throw it in PTS and lets find out right

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4 minutes ago, MikeLWX said:

If you want something removed, remove proxy spotting.  Show ships spotted by teammates only on the minimap.

As a compromise instead of removing it all together limit the range proxy spotting works. For example you need to be within 8k of the ship doing the spotting for you to see the target. 

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Let's be realistic here. WG wants  shorter matches, not longer ones. Remove Sa and you'll have just about every ship refusing to move out of island cover for fear of being dev struck unaware. Do you really want this game to become WoT naval edition more than it already is?

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2 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

As a compromise instead of removing it all together limit the range proxy spotting works. For example you need to be within 8k of the ship doing the spotting for you to see the target. 

i believe that is how it works today... you will only animate objects within your "cone of vision" 

 

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3 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

I totally agree with you, I say get rid of long range incoming fire alerts...noting more frustrating than having that cruiser lined up perfectly, you click the button and instantly they start maneuvering. Not a fan of RDF either......the game was much more fun before Wargaming started dumbing down the game to accommodate the low skill level NPC that makes up the majority of the players in this game.

 

3 minutes ago, _Gax_ said:

I can actually spot a cleveland before he can radar me. As I believe the case is with all radat cruisers. So if they're popping radar the instance they are spotted they are wasting it in most cases. Removing SA would seriously change the way the game is played. At first there might be some very fast battles till players decided to go to a sneaking game just to stay alive longer. 

I think Incoming fire skill is still acceptable only becuase you could actually see shell fires in real life and turn.   RDF/RPF is very OP in clan battles/ranked but not as bad in randoms.   I am not opposed to it in randoms simply for helping the team have a rough idea where that last person is. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

As a compromise instead of removing it all together limit the range proxy spotting works. For example you need to be within 8k of the ship doing the spotting for you to see the target. 

Id be open to testing this honestly its a good suggestion. 

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SA often makes me afraid to move out of cover for fear of being struck.

If its some pseudo radar, you should be able to detect the general area of the person detecting you based on the pings. This is often why people wouldn't use radar in real life during WW2, because just like radio communications this could lead to a reliable DF reading and scrub an entire operation/get you killed. This is still how AA is located in air operations.

Edited by Tanuvein
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57 minutes ago, deresistance said:

image.png.64b2820e4496888b7f2cd84ec0687e90.png

Situational Awareness is the most powerful skill in the game given to all ships.   It used to NOT be this way many years ago.   I think we should remove this skill and priority target.     however I believe you can keep Incoming Fire and Radio Location.   So why remove such a core mechanic? 

  • This will fix the radar problem - Radar is simple in use when you know your detected you pop it, every DD knows this has been a balance problem for far to long
  • it will allow for more strategic play since no one will know if they are spotted or not.  
  • It would make skills like Incoming Fire very valuable without being such a huge power curve
  • What do ships do when they are first spotted?  Typically they turn, maneuver, which is a massive advantage when really you should do that once you see shells in the air.  
  • Surprise attacks are actually a thing again.    I know hydro/radar goes through terrain but least that is not nearly as impactful as Situational awareness. 

The balancing issue is that there is to much information given to the player.    Imagine if in an FPS you had an indicator knowing a player was looking at you.   it would dramatically change how the game is played.   People would bunny hop, duck for cover etc.  You wouldn't get your first surprise shot like you should. 

And while we're removing SA, we might as well just eliminate DD's also.

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1 minute ago, DarkStormy said:

And while we're removing SA, we might as well just eliminate DD's also.

Why?

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... this is very interesting. .. hmm, idk what the game would look like without SA. 

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Just now, deresistance said:

Why?

stating what i think is obvious. 

DDs live and die with that little nugget of crucial information. I know i depend on it. look to it constantly when sailing dds and most CA's

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19 minutes ago, deresistance said:

We all know WG isn't going to remove this.   I just want people to think about how much of an impact it is.  DDs hate radar not because it exist, its that anytime a cruiser is spotted he can instantly pop radar and counter it.   Its powerfully mostly because its a counter to situational awareness.     Have to say imagine putting this in an FPS how drastically different it changes the game.

Hate to break it to ya, but Radar and hydro weren't a temporary thing during WWII. Radar and sonar (hydro) were always on and went quite a ways out. Hell, Lucky A spotted planes 160miles out. So sure take SA out, but then u have to make smoke and ships gradually appear on the horizon and radar and hydro is always on.

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