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Ranked Sprint Balance Thoughts

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I would just like to say that its been a long time since I played tier 5 and the ranked sprint has given me a way to play it without feeling needlessly dirty.

 

It has been an incredible experience playing a tier that is better balanced than the high tiers. Cruisers are almost as useless as they deserve to be and CVs are hardly a threat at all if they even exist (has yet to be confirmed). According to the current results on wows numbers the class distribution has been much more favorable than previous ranked matches:

image.png.e7344db54d6827badd398088d096e28f.png

Source: https://na.wows-numbers.com/season/id,101/

 

As you can see the battles consist mostly of BBs and DDs with a few masochistic Loser players trying to get citadeled in the process.

 

If we look at the performance results:

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.9ffafda925f14d58353e5abfb107d8f6.png

You will note that DDs represent themselves almost as strongly as they deserve to be taking 5 of the top 10 spots while 1 BB, 1 CV, and 2 Losers also somehow manage to make the top 10, no doubt because of poor balance on WGs part. Unfortunetly this is not as balanced as it seems because thee of the ships on that list are clones, eliminating the repeats we see a different story:

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.7c82f6f7a45ee8d3697ec93c5b900589.png

Skipping Kamikaze R and Fujin we see that a more accurate analysis shows 4 DDs, 2 BBs, 1 CV, and 4 Losers.

Sorting by damage tells an even worse story:

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.88d18c7de3d18af101ec6c79fbaf454f.png

Unfortunately WG balance falls flat on its face here with 0 DDs making the top damage lists, and instead BBs take the entire list. Since DDs like the Kamikaze/Fujin focus primarily on sinking BBs you would think that their damage numbers would be significantly higher, especially given that there are few other ships besides the BBs and the ships were removed because they were unbalanced or so WG claimed.

 

So while this tier is much more balanced without radar and those over powered cruisers at the high tiers there is still much work required. Torpedoes are still significantly weaker than high caliber guns and DDs are often reduced to spotting for larger ships or stealing caps.  However not all is lost, DDs at this tier can compete with several of the Losers somewhat equally 1v1 because of the ability to citadel ships like the Omahas or Konigsberg at reasonable ranges. In team engagements it turns even worse against the Losers because BB AP can overmatch those impure ships at any angle and it only takes a couple shells to sink any of the cruisers. The Furry taco is a massive exception however, WG probably should start with examining that ship, with longer range torpedoes than any tier 5 DD, armor that can bounce BB shells, and guns that not only deal significant amounts of damage but AP that can overmatch other Losers it seems significantly overpowered in its tier. The fact that the Aoba at tier 6 is almost identical should be a clue to people...

 

Anyways thanks WG, it has been a great break from the tier 10 everything the last year. Enjoy some DD play without having to worry about the proliferation of unbalanced spotting consumables.

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You are asking a company who can't even copy paste a decent MMR from other games to design balanced ships?  LOL.  

Edited by JonnyFreedom
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54 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

I would just like to say that its been a long time since I played tier 5 and the ranked sprint has given me a way to play it without feeling needlessly dirty.

 

It has been an incredible experience playing a tier that is better balanced than the high tiers. Cruisers are almost as useless as they deserve to be and CVs are hardly a threat at all if they even exist (has yet to be confirmed). According to the current results on wows numbers the class distribution has been much more favorable than previous ranked matches:

image.png.e7344db54d6827badd398088d096e28f.png

Source: https://na.wows-numbers.com/season/id,101/

 

As you can see the battles consist mostly of BBs and DDs with a few masochistic Loser players trying to get citadeled in the process.

 

If we look at the performance results:

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.9ffafda925f14d58353e5abfb107d8f6.png

You will note that DDs represent themselves almost as strongly as they deserve to be taking 5 of the top 10 spots while 1 BB, 1 CV, and 2 Losers also somehow manage to make the top 10, no doubt because of poor balance on WGs part. Unfortunetly this is not as balanced as it seems because thee of the ships on that list are clones, eliminating the repeats we see a different story:

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.7c82f6f7a45ee8d3697ec93c5b900589.png

Skipping Kamikaze R and Fujin we see that a more accurate analysis shows 4 DDs, 2 BBs, 1 CV, and 4 Losers.

Sorting by damage tells an even worse story:

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.88d18c7de3d18af101ec6c79fbaf454f.png

Unfortunately WG balance falls flat on its face here with 0 DDs making the top damage lists, and instead BBs take the entire list. Since DDs like the Kamikaze/Fujin focus primarily on sinking BBs you would think that their damage numbers would be significantly higher, especially given that there are few other ships besides the BBs and the ships were removed because they were unbalanced or so WG claimed.

 

So while this tier is much more balanced without radar and those over powered cruisers at the high tiers there is still much work required. Torpedoes are still significantly weaker than high caliber guns and DDs are often reduced to spotting for larger ships or stealing caps.  However not all is lost, DDs at this tier can compete with several of the Losers somewhat equally 1v1 because of the ability to citadel ships like the Omahas or Konigsberg at reasonable ranges. In team engagements it turns even worse against the Losers because BB AP can overmatch those impure ships at any angle and it only takes a couple shells to sink any of the cruisers. The Furry taco is a massive exception however, WG probably should start with examining that ship, with longer range torpedoes than any tier 5 DD, armor that can bounce BB shells, and guns that not only deal significant amounts of damage but AP that can overmatch other Losers it seems significantly overpowered in its tier. The fact that the Aoba at tier 6 is almost identical should be a clue to people...

 

Anyways thanks WG, it has been a great break from the tier 10 everything the last year. Enjoy some DD play without having to worry about the proliferation of unbalanced spotting consumables.

What?  You don't think the Kamikazes are worth the analysis?  What are the spotting damage numbers for dds?

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1 minute ago, pinkship9001 said:

If cruisers are useless, how is it balanced well? Why do cruisers deserve to be useless?

Because he's either a DD or BB main. Given his assessment of a how a Kami should be played, hopefully a BB player. 

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7 minutes ago, Nachoo31 said:

What?  You don't think the Kamikazes are worth the analysis?  What are the spotting damage numbers for dds?

No, maybe I was not clear enough. I just lumped the Kamikazes and Fujin together since all three are identical ships and counting one ship three times ruins the analysis.

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Hey, Zim!  Interesting analysis.  It begs several questions, none of which are necessarily 'on topic', so if you want to take these up on another thread that's cool with me.  These are all honest questions, no snark and I do not mean to be contentious.  (And if I've missed any cues for tone, forgive me.)

57 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Cruisers are almost as useless as they deserve to be

 

57 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

without radar and those over powered cruisers at the high tiers

First one is a two-parter:  Why do cruisers deserve to be useless?  Also, aside from radar (don't want to get the discussion locked, so I'll try to avoid the third rail), what makes high tier cruisers OP?  I'm just getting into tier 8 & 9 play in Randoms, and haven't been spending much time in the Random Battle pool lately.

1 hour ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Unfortunately WG balance falls flat on its face here with 0 DDs making the top damage lists, and instead BBs take the entire list.

Do you feel that the damage potential should be roughly equal for each type in any given tier?  I'm not saying I think it shouldn't - I hadn't thought about it to form an opinion before.

Last one, from the 'Potpourri' category - what do you think should be adjusted to improve these balance issues?

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4 minutes ago, Zairinzan said:

Because he's either a DD or BB main. Given his assessment of a how a Kami should be played, hopefully a BB player. 

Actually, I didnt say anything about how to play the Kami since I play the Gremy. I wouldnt want to tell people how to play a ship I have insufficient experience in after all.

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Nice Post Zim. Always appreciate your point of view.

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2 minutes ago, Fishrokk said:

Hey, Zim!  Interesting analysis.  It begs several questions, none of which are necessarily 'on topic', so if you want to take these up on another thread that's cool with me.  These are all honest questions, no snark and I do not mean to be contentious.  (And if I've missed any cues for tone, forgive me.)

 

First one is a two-parter:  Why do cruisers deserve to be useless?  Also, aside from radar (don't want to get the discussion locked, so I'll try to avoid the third rail), what makes high tier cruisers OP?  I'm just getting into tier 8 & 9 play in Randoms, and haven't been spending much time in the Random Battle pool lately.

Do you feel that the damage potential should be roughly equal for each type in any given tier?  I'm not saying I think it shouldn't - I hadn't thought about it to form an opinion before.

Last one, from the 'Potpourri' category - what do you think should be adjusted to improve these balance issues?

Short answer:

Spoiler

this is completely tongue in cheek

Long answer:

 

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i am curious as to why no one else but me apparently plays the Murmanskin ranked sprint... I have been playing pretty much just that and the Kamikazi and doing OK with it..... it is GREAT for burning BBs... Cit'ng Cruisers and wrecking DDs...GUess I am the only one... and I have only seen TWO marble heads in 22 battles so far and 5 Murmansk players.... interesting stats...

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Why do you say CV's are useless in T5 Ranked Sprint? Actually I seen more CV's in this than any other ranked battles so far. (There may have been more CV play before I joined WOW.) There are fewer good AA ships in T5, opening the door for carriers. Excellent in spotting and harassing DD's. Good for helping spot and fight in cap battles. A good counter balance for the top T5 BB, the GC.

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1 hour ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

As you can see the battles consist mostly of BBs and DDs with a few masochistic Loser players trying to get citadeled in the process.

Would this be a bad time to post multiple screenshots of me placing #1 on my team with Murmansk and Konigsberg?

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1 minute ago, desmo_2 said:

Would this be a bad time to post multiple screenshots of me placing #1 on my team with Murmansk and Konigsberg?

Feel free, there is no rule saying you cant, however you should note that sample size and probability will effect the results especially for small sample sizes. If the rest of your team fumble while playing good boats like the GC or Kamikaze is your first place a result of your ship choice or your teammates mistakes? I like to tell a friend of mine that I play with a lot that he could sink ships in this game in a rowboat with a BB gun, not because I think that particular setup would perform well, just because he is a really good player and I have seen him get himself out of situations he had no right to survive.

When people say a ship is inferior or bad or whatever else they mean just that you have to work harder and be smarter in how you play or alternatively be a more lucky player. Same with a good ship, if WG released a tier 5 Seawolf someone would still find a way to lose.

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I am seriously surprised that the data says that all top 10 damage dealers are BBs (and no DDs). I thought it was bad, but not that bad. 

 

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1 hour ago, pinkship9001 said:

If cruisers are useless, how is it balanced well? Why do cruisers deserve to be useless?

They don't and they aren't.  If you look at the OP analysis, 40% of the top 10 are classified by his as being "Losers" which should give someone an insight to that validity of that part of his analysis. 

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This is top tier troll bait. Ten outta ten.

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Yup it's a trashtier. Also Konigsberg needs a DPM buff...

Edited by Stand_Alone97

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You do know that wows numbers only counts ships that have fought at least 10 battles.  So, for example, my Emerald at 78% over 9 battles and Marblehead at 60% over 5 battles is not included.  None of my battles will end up counting if I finish up without running the Emerald again.  I am at Rank 3 after 16 battles.

The numbers are also skewed by the newer players which this mode was designed to provides opportunities to.  Looking at the Emerald, there is a player at 46% over 65 battles, one at 33.3% over 54 battles, and one at 41% over 41 battles.  That is a result of players still learning how to play cruisers.  Any players that know how to play cruisers will be done in very few battles.

Nice bait...

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1 hour ago, BlailBlerg said:

I am seriously surprised that the data says that all top 10 damage dealers are BBs (and no DDs). I thought it was bad, but not that bad. 

 

I think it might have to do with the type of ships each type fights and the survival rate.  Damage wise, DDs will probably end up fighting other DDs most of the time, which yield lower damage totals.  Also, DD torps do not cause an especially high amount of damage on BBs.  Not a DD, but it took eight torps from my Emerald and gunfire to take down a full health BB at close range in one battle with four torps to each side of the BB.

As an aside, BBs with high average damage are not very high in win rate.  The top three win rate ships are DDs and six of the top ten win rate ships are DDs with only one a BB.  The GC, with the highest average damage, is seventh in win rate and the only BB to make it into the top ten for win rate.  The second highest average damage, Oktober, is 16th in win rate.  The third highest in average damage., Iron Duke, is 13th in win rate.

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Tell you what. I'd rather take my Emile Bertain into T7 battles in regular randoms than be confronted by OP premiums like Cesare or Kami R in every match.

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1 hour ago, BlailBlerg said:

I am seriously surprised that the data says that all top 10 damage dealers are BBs (and no DDs). I thought it was bad, but not that bad. 

 

That's because OP didn't consider all the Kongo clones to be the same ship like he did with the Kamikaze triplets.

It doesn't change much if you do though. The top  10 would become 8 BB and 2 CV.

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2 minutes ago, grumpymunky said:

That's because OP didn't consider all the Kongo clones to be the same ship like he did with the Kamikaze triplets.

It doesn't change much if you do though. The top  10 would become 8 BB and 2 CV.

Oh good catch, I totally missed that. Unfortunately that only adds the two CVs to the top 10 list so it ends up being 8 BBs and than 2 CVs at the bottom.

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4 hours ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

I would just like to say that its been a long time since I played tier 5 and the ranked sprint has given me a way to play it without feeling needlessly dirty.

 

It has been an incredible experience playing a tier that is better balanced than the high tiers. Cruisers are almost as useless as they deserve to be and CVs are hardly a threat at all if they even exist (has yet to be confirmed). According to the current results on wows numbers the class distribution has been much more favorable than previous ranked matches:

image.png.e7344db54d6827badd398088d096e28f.png

Source: https://na.wows-numbers.com/season/id,101/

 

As you can see the battles consist mostly of BBs and DDs with a few masochistic Loser players trying to get citadeled in the process.

 

If we look at the performance results:

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.9ffafda925f14d58353e5abfb107d8f6.png

You will note that DDs represent themselves almost as strongly as they deserve to be taking 5 of the top 10 spots while 1 BB, 1 CV, and 2 Losers also somehow manage to make the top 10, no doubt because of poor balance on WGs part. Unfortunetly this is not as balanced as it seems because thee of the ships on that list are clones, eliminating the repeats we see a different story:

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.7c82f6f7a45ee8d3697ec93c5b900589.png

Skipping Kamikaze R and Fujin we see that a more accurate analysis shows 4 DDs, 2 BBs, 1 CV, and 4 Losers.

Sorting by damage tells an even worse story:

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.88d18c7de3d18af101ec6c79fbaf454f.png

Unfortunately WG balance falls flat on its face here with 0 DDs making the top damage lists, and instead BBs take the entire list. Since DDs like the Kamikaze/Fujin focus primarily on sinking BBs you would think that their damage numbers would be significantly higher, especially given that there are few other ships besides the BBs and the ships were removed because they were unbalanced or so WG claimed.

 

So while this tier is much more balanced without radar and those over powered cruisers at the high tiers there is still much work required. Torpedoes are still significantly weaker than high caliber guns and DDs are often reduced to spotting for larger ships or stealing caps.  However not all is lost, DDs at this tier can compete with several of the Losers somewhat equally 1v1 because of the ability to citadel ships like the Omahas or Konigsberg at reasonable ranges. In team engagements it turns even worse against the Losers because BB AP can overmatch those impure ships at any angle and it only takes a couple shells to sink any of the cruisers. The Furry taco is a massive exception however, WG probably should start with examining that ship, with longer range torpedoes than any tier 5 DD, armor that can bounce BB shells, and guns that not only deal significant amounts of damage but AP that can overmatch other Losers it seems significantly overpowered in its tier. The fact that the Aoba at tier 6 is almost identical should be a clue to people...

 

Anyways thanks WG, it has been a great break from the tier 10 everything the last year. Enjoy some DD play without having to worry about the proliferation of unbalanced spotting consumables.

Ranked out in Konigsberg and Murmansk, exclusively from Rank 3. And they saved a star in virtually every match I lost.

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