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I am not the best RTS player in the world.  I loved games like starcraft II and the entire command and conquer series, so I was naturally drawn to the CV play.  I agree that the current RTS needed some sort of overall to make it more like the other ships, HOWEVER, with this rework several other things have come up in the test that needs to be addressed.  Please keep in mind these are in absolutely zero order.

 

  • Repetitiveness - The nature of CV goes with this.  One could argue that the current RTS is repetitive as well, however with everything else you are doing in the RTS you do not notice it.  In the rework it becomes very apparent as you wait to get back to your target after you expend your bombs/torps/rockets/or shot down.  Boring is the best word I can use to describe this wait.
  • CV control - It is ludicrous that you can not control your CV.  You can not even use your damage control as you burn down or flood out unless you return your bombers, which kills time and makes you more vulnerable as you are unable to sink what is shooting at you.  Did I also mention it makes it VERY hard to dodge torpedos from air or sea or DBs
  • ALPHA Strike - Wargaming has said extremely often that they wanted to eliminate the alpha strike.  Currently in the beta it is not uncommon to see the T6 Japanese CV sniping the other CVs with torps, however the T6 American CV is not capable of this with the current max load out.
  • Fighters - I understand that Wargaming would like to eliminate dogfighting and scouting with this rework,  mainly because it would lead to World of Warplanes.  Ok, I am good with that, however there needs to be a better solution then the current method.  Fighters played a major part of naval aviation in WWII from scouting, to CAP, to bomber escort.  Perhaps Wargaming could consider making fighters into another squad that the player has to fly to engage one bomber squad before returning to the CV.  This would make them both useful for intercept, provide very limited scouting (at the cost of strike damage for the CV), and still provide a means to get them included in a much more useful way.  I think the players in the beta will agree that the fighters in their current form are all but useless
  • AP - I have been playing under the assumption that the AP bombs were given to the Japanese simply for testing purposes.  There have been rumors going around that they are going to the Japanese for good.  (Please see above on Alpha Strike).  Giving the Japanese the ability to Citadel using AP AND launch a full 6 torp bombers against a target goes towards the Alpha Strike principal.  If you are going to give the IJN more torp planes, at least give the USN our AP back. 
  • HE + DOT = SPAM = WIN - For once I am not even talking about he Conqueror here.  In the current RTS, it is possible to DOT a ship wait until dmg con timer is off, then hit him again for a sticky flood/fire.  With the current testing, it is being done on a much larger scale.  You can get sticky fires/flood on two or three ships at once now, increasing your overall damage output.  Even the HMS Conqueror can sometimes have a hard time doing that, not the CV can do it while being out of harms way
  • Premium CVs - I do not know what Wargaming has in store for the premium CVs that most of us own.  There is zero uniqueness between the current rework version of the CVs with the exception of more bombers.  The unique drop pattern/Strafe Bonues/Tier difference/fighter compliment/bomber compliment are all a major reason we bought them in the first place.  (Granted you can take a secondary specced Kaga out for some laughs, but...)
  • AA Change - Overall I am glad that they are addressing the auto AA, however for trying to eliminate playing the CV, how am I supposed to control my AA and change it while I am not AT my ship because I am flying planes?
  • Team Play - Does doing damage to enemy ships help your team?  YES!  However how many times have you either been called out, or called someone out in a BB out for sitting in the back shooting and sinking ships because they were not engaged in the actual fight?  The CV is uniquely suited to this take, however even a BB sitting behind an island is still being useful.  The more ships shoot at him the more they are visible on the map to be shot at.  This is not true for a CV, as soon as their planes are spent, they have to fly back to the CV which means the now unspotted BB is no longer taking fire until the planes return.  RTS CVs currently can maintain scouting while doing damage pretty much all the time.  Wargaming wanted to eliminate this, which I understand to a degree, but then what is the point of having a CV on your team now?  If you are unable to scout, and you are strickly a damage dealer now, then you are encouraging selfish game play.  The most valuable RTS CVs are not the top damage dealers, but the ones who give sight to their team and who strike when they are able.

 

My thoughts on the current iteration of the rework is they are a LONG way off from making this enjoyable over extended periods of time.  You can play other classes for hours on end, but after just three battles in the CV rework, I became bored and logged out of the game completely and went to a different one.  I hope that this is a VERY rough draft of what they want to do and this was put together to draw interest from the community before they decide if they push forward or not.  I feel like they need to engage more of the current CV mains combined with those interested in the rework who do not CV alot and combine their ideas and make a better game.  time will tell.

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39 minutes ago, Lovestress said:

CV control

Its a small compromise to have to land your planes to take control of the CV.  The CV rarely risks his ship, there has to be some kind of risk to offset all the reward.  Beside, being able to immediately recall your planes and launch another squadron to put up fighter or attack the enemy ships threatening you is a pretty nice perk of this trade off.

42 minutes ago, Lovestress said:

Team Play

We haven't had matches without a lot of bots.  When we get games with all human players you'll see team play/strategy develop. 

44 minutes ago, Lovestress said:

If you are unable to scout,

I cringe every time I see someone post this.  CVs are still the best scouts in the game by a mile.

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i keep seeing clips and reviews of the CV game play...however i want to see the effect that the re-work would have on surface ships...mostly with what will be the changes to ships that have specific AA strengths? ships like Atlanta, Cleveland...MO...etc...

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Thank you very much for providing your feedback!  We are still very early in testing and plan to do a lot more testing before this rework makes it's way to the live servers.

 

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54 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Beside, being able to immediately recall your planes and launch another squadron to put up fighter or attack the enemy ships threatening you is a pretty nice perk of this trade off.

Except that doesn’t work unless the ship threatening you is an idiot who has no concept of WASD.

Can anyone please explain to me how a system that is basically manual attacks on steroids is supposed to be an improvement; when the skill gap of players who couldn’t grasp manual attacks in the RTS system is why this rework is occurring in the first place?

1 hour ago, Slimeball91 said:

CVs are still the best scouts in the game by a mile.

BULL.

With this proposed WoWP Lite; please explain how exactly ONE unit of planes is a better scout than anything else?

Especially if they have to toggle back to defend their carrier; or are concentrating on the new manual attacks?

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40 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

With this proposed WoWP Lite; please explain how exactly ONE unit of planes is a better scout than anything else?

Raw speed of the aircraft, and their spotting distance. You can cover ALOT of the maps VERY quickly with the fighters and the speed boost.

Don't get your jimmies all rustled because you can't as easily perma-spot people anymore. Or do. I don't care.

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@Radar_X,  I finally got the huge download completed and just tried to login, only to find out the test was concluded.  The invite came in 3 days ago, so I guess I missed out on this round.

Anyway, if we were selected previously, will we have a second chance to try them out?  

thanks,

B

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2 hours ago, bassmasta76 said:

@Radar_X,  I finally got the huge download completed and just tried to login, only to find out the test was concluded.  The invite came in 3 days ago, so I guess I missed out on this round.

Anyway, if we were selected previously, will we have a second chance to try them out?  

thanks,

B

I just ran into the same thing. First I download the wrong client then I had to postpone the right client three times because of the time it took to download the client. ( I couldn't leave my computer on just to download the test client because it slows down my computer if I try to do any thing else. I don't have much time to be on my computer.) then when the download is completed I find I can't log on. Then I find the test is over. Just my luck. I know the world didn't end I just wish it didn't take so long to download  ! 

Edited by Gary_62

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3 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

please explain how exactly ONE unit of planes is a better scout than anything else?

He's wrong that "CV's are still the best scouts" - namely because they aren't even close to the actual best, but I will say for what CV's lose in overall overage of going more than one direction, the ability to just loiter near a DD and periodically launch some rockets at him while keeping him lit up is greater than the either 1 and done of current attack groups or circling fighters over head when available. Which the part of me that would want CV's to be the absolute power and god of a match is fine with, less so the part that plays the other classes and understands balance. Not sure about others but personally, I'd rather a CV be able to send 6 groups that can try and find me, with 3-4 able to attack me once before returning and the others not able to attack at all then groups that can just circle and take a potshot every now and then. 

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8 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Except that doesn’t work unless the ship threatening you is an idiot who has no concept of WASD.

Its funny, I thought BB players were the biggest babies in the game because they always want their ship to have no weakness.  It certainly is CV players now.  There has to be some threat of being sunk.  You can't just to hide behind an island at the back of the map and spam attack after attack with no risk.

8 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Can anyone please explain to me how a system that is basically manual attacks on steroids is supposed to be an improvement; when the skill gap of players who couldn’t grasp manual attacks in the RTS system is why this rework is occurring in the first place?

I guess you weren't in the rework test.  If you were you'd understand just how easy it is to pick up the new CV game play.  There will always be skill gap with every ships type; that's because people have different skill levels.  However, the rework will probably make CVs the easiest ships to play in the game, so skill gap won't be a problem.

8 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

BULL.

With this proposed WoWP Lite; please explain how exactly ONE unit of planes is a better scout than anything else?

As J30 said, a craft that can go 150-200 kts. (when everything else goes 30-40 kts.) is going to cover a lot of area in a very short amount of time.  On top of that a CV risks nothing to spot.  A DD player risks his ship to be on the front line to spot, a CV does it while perfectly safe parked hiding behind an island at the back of the map.  Furthermore, DDs' spotting has been reduce with the proliferation of radar.  DDs are barely willing to edge into caps from the threat of radar.  They aren't the front line ships they used to be.  CVs will be the ones providing the spotting in the rework.

5 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

He's wrong that "CV's are still the best scouts"

Go ahead and explain how I'm wrong.  I'd love to hear how an aircraft that goes 150-200 kts. isn't the best scout.

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6 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

He's wrong that "CV's are still the best scouts" - namely because they aren't even close to the actual best, but I will say for what CV's lose in overall overage of going more than one direction, the ability to just loiter near a DD and periodically launch some rockets at him while keeping him lit up is greater than the either 1 and done of current attack groups or circling fighters over head when available. Which the part of me that would want CV's to be the absolute power and god of a match is fine with, less so the part that plays the other classes and understands balance. Not sure about others but personally, I'd rather a CV be able to send 6 groups that can try and find me, with 3-4 able to attack me once before returning and the others not able to attack at all then groups that can just circle and take a potshot every now and then. 

They are still the best scouts. They can still do it faster and safer than anyone else. The difference is that now they can only technically do it in 2 places (the planes and the carrier) rather than 9 or so that was possible before. As for preferring to see 6 groups spotting you, you are not thinking about the team and the implications to the entire match. Being able to use one group to perma-spot someone is fine. Any ship can do that technically. What they don't want is a CV be able to perma-spot every DD and cruiser on the enemy team at once and keep all caps constantly under surveillance unless the enemy CV intervenes. That's what really good CV captains could do under the old system that was really game-breaking. That's the big thing they wanted to kill in this iteration which is why CVs only have 1 airgroup to control. 

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12 hours ago, Lovestress said:

I am not the best RTS player in the world.  I loved games like starcraft II and the entire command and conquer series, so I was naturally drawn to the CV play.  I agree that the current RTS needed some sort of overall to make it more like the other ships, HOWEVER, with this rework several other things have come up in the test that needs to be addressed.  Please keep in mind these are in absolutely zero order.

 

  • Repetitiveness - The nature of CV goes with this.  One could argue that the current RTS is repetitive as well, however with everything else you are doing in the RTS you do not notice it.  In the rework it becomes very apparent as you wait to get back to your target after you expend your bombs/torps/rockets/or shot down.  Boring is the best word I can use to describe this wait.
  • CV control - It is ludicrous that you can not control your CV.  You can not even use your damage control as you burn down or flood out unless you return your bombers, which kills time and makes you more vulnerable as you are unable to sink what is shooting at you.  Did I also mention it makes it VERY hard to dodge torpedos from air or sea or DBs
  • ALPHA Strike - Wargaming has said extremely often that they wanted to eliminate the alpha strike.  Currently in the beta it is not uncommon to see the T6 Japanese CV sniping the other CVs with torps, however the T6 American CV is not capable of this with the current max load out.
  • Fighters - I understand that Wargaming would like to eliminate dogfighting and scouting with this rework,  mainly because it would lead to World of Warplanes.  Ok, I am good with that, however there needs to be a better solution then the current method.  Fighters played a major part of naval aviation in WWII from scouting, to CAP, to bomber escort.  Perhaps Wargaming could consider making fighters into another squad that the player has to fly to engage one bomber squad before returning to the CV.  This would make them both useful for intercept, provide very limited scouting (at the cost of strike damage for the CV), and still provide a means to get them included in a much more useful way.  I think the players in the beta will agree that the fighters in their current form are all but useless
  • AP - I have been playing under the assumption that the AP bombs were given to the Japanese simply for testing purposes.  There have been rumors going around that they are going to the Japanese for good.  (Please see above on Alpha Strike).  Giving the Japanese the ability to Citadel using AP AND launch a full 6 torp bombers against a target goes towards the Alpha Strike principal.  If you are going to give the IJN more torp planes, at least give the USN our AP back. 
  • HE + DOT = SPAM = WIN - For once I am not even talking about he Conqueror here.  In the current RTS, it is possible to DOT a ship wait until dmg con timer is off, then hit him again for a sticky flood/fire.  With the current testing, it is being done on a much larger scale.  You can get sticky fires/flood on two or three ships at once now, increasing your overall damage output.  Even the HMS Conqueror can sometimes have a hard time doing that, not the CV can do it while being out of harms way
  • Premium CVs - I do not know what Wargaming has in store for the premium CVs that most of us own.  There is zero uniqueness between the current rework version of the CVs with the exception of more bombers.  The unique drop pattern/Strafe Bonues/Tier difference/fighter compliment/bomber compliment are all a major reason we bought them in the first place.  (Granted you can take a secondary specced Kaga out for some laughs, but...)
  • AA Change - Overall I am glad that they are addressing the auto AA, however for trying to eliminate playing the CV, how am I supposed to control my AA and change it while I am not AT my ship because I am flying planes?
  • Team Play - Does doing damage to enemy ships help your team?  YES!  However how many times have you either been called out, or called someone out in a BB out for sitting in the back shooting and sinking ships because they were not engaged in the actual fight?  The CV is uniquely suited to this take, however even a BB sitting behind an island is still being useful.  The more ships shoot at him the more they are visible on the map to be shot at.  This is not true for a CV, as soon as their planes are spent, they have to fly back to the CV which means the now unspotted BB is no longer taking fire until the planes return.  RTS CVs currently can maintain scouting while doing damage pretty much all the time.  Wargaming wanted to eliminate this, which I understand to a degree, but then what is the point of having a CV on your team now?  If you are unable to scout, and you are strickly a damage dealer now, then you are encouraging selfish game play.  The most valuable RTS CVs are not the top damage dealers, but the ones who give sight to their team and who strike when they are able.

 

My thoughts on the current iteration of the rework is they are a LONG way off from making this enjoyable over extended periods of time.  You can play other classes for hours on end, but after just three battles in the CV rework, I became bored and logged out of the game completely and went to a different one.  I hope that this is a VERY rough draft of what they want to do and this was put together to draw interest from the community before they decide if they push forward or not.  I feel like they need to engage more of the current CV mains combined with those interested in the rework who do not CV alot and combine their ideas and make a better game.  time will tell.

Thanks for your commentary. Unfortunately I didn't get a golden ticket, but I have been watching and reading all the commentary from people who did. A lot of other testers had the same comments. Keep up the good work. :)

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2 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

Its funny, I thought BB players were the biggest babies in the game because they always want their ship to have no weakness.  It certainly is CV players now.  There has to be some threat of being sunk.  You can't just to hide behind an island at the back of the map and spam attack after attack with no risk.

Perhaps after you've played a few more carrier battles, we can talk about the risk carriers face.

2 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I guess you weren't in the rework test.  If you were you'd understand just how easy it is to pick up the new CV game play.  There will always be skill gap with every ships type; that's because people have different skill levels.  However, the rework will probably make CVs the easiest ships to play in the game, so skill gap won't be a problem.

I was.

Completely unintuitive, over sensitive, impossible to use controls.

2 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

As J30 said, a craft that can go 150-200 kts. (when everything else goes 30-40 kts.) is going to cover a lot of area in a very short amount of time.  On top of that a CV risks nothing to spot.  A DD player risks his ship to be on the front line to spot, a CV does it while perfectly safe parked hiding behind an island at the back of the map.  Furthermore, DDs' spotting has been reduce with the proliferation of radar.  DDs are barely willing to edge into caps from the threat of radar.  They aren't the front line ships they used to be.  CVs will be the ones providing the spotting in the rework.

'a CV does it while perfectly safe parked hiding behind an island at the back of the map.'

The ignorance of this statment is so staggering it beggars belief. Any carrier stupid enough to do this desrves to be sunk.

'DDs are barely willing to edge into caps from the threat of radar.  They aren't the front line ships they used to be.'

And you say carriers are babbies... Why is it I don't have trouble with radar, never have trouble with being perma-spotted, and always do well spotting for my team when driving destroyers I wonder?

Perhaps because I undestand how to avoid doing the things that cause a destroyer to get into trouble because of those? Including how carriers actually work?

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22 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Perhaps after you've played a few more carrier battles, we can talk about the risk carriers face.

I'd assume you know CVs have the highest survivals rates in the game by far.  A stat we don't have access to is life expectancy of ships.  I have no doubt CVs have the longest life expectancy by a large margin.  They do not take the same risks as other ships, period.

25 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

I was.

Completely unintuitive, over sensitive, impossible to use controls.

You didn't play the same CV rework test as I did then.  I found CVs very intuitive, and easy to pick up on the game play.  I've played exactly one CV in the last two years and I was able to easily put out more damage in the test than the current average damage for the CVs.  I was able to do that after playing only 2-3 games.  If CVs make it live anything like we saw in the test they will easily be the lowest skill floor class. 

If you found CVs hard to play then you just didn't give the rework a chance.

38 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

'a CV does it while perfectly safe parked hiding behind an island at the back of the map.'

The ignorance of this statment is so staggering it beggars belief. Any carrier stupid enough to do this desrves to be sunk.

The majority of CV games are played at low tiers, most of the CV players there all park and don't move.  Maybe you don't do that, that doesn't most other players play the same way.

I get it, you're bitter about the rework.  You should have seen this coming two years ago.  You should have come to terms with this by now.  Being angry isn't helping you, and it won't make WG change their mind.  The rework is coming.  

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33 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I get it, you're bitter about the rework.  You should have seen this coming two years ago.  You should have come to terms with this by now.  Being angry isn't helping you, and it won't make WG change their mind.  The rework is coming.  

<insert Shia Lewhatshisface clapping gif>

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49 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I'd assume you know CVs have the highest survivals rates in the game by far.  A stat we don't have access to is life expectancy of ships.  I have no doubt CVs have the longest life expectancy by a large margin.  They do not take the same risks as other ships, period.

You didn't play the same CV rework test as I did then.  I found CVs very intuitive, and easy to pick up on the game play.  I've played exactly one CV in the last two years and I was able to easily put out more damage in the test than the current average damage for the CVs.  I was able to do that after playing only 2-3 games.  If CVs make it live anything like we saw in the test they will easily be the lowest skill floor class. 

If you found CVs hard to play then you just didn't give the rework a chance.

The majority of CV games are played at low tiers, most of the CV players there all park and don't move.  Maybe you don't do that, that doesn't most other players play the same way.

I get it, you're bitter about the rework.  You should have seen this coming two years ago.  You should have come to terms with this by now.  Being angry isn't helping you, and it won't make WG change their mind.  The rework is coming.  

Good answer. +1.

What you said about low skill ceiling and easy damage though is why carriers will continue to be hated.

Bitter?

Why should I be bitter? It’s not like WG ignored suggestions for fixes for those two years you mentioned; broke any promises; or added cancer to the game that just made things worse, (Saipan, Graf Zepplin, AP bombs.)

Didn’t give the rework a chance...

Maybe if WH hadn’t forced us to use their worthless Game Center?

Perhaps then I could have downloaded everything normally and had more time to ‘give it a chance,’ instead of having to wait for that piece of trash to finish doing its job, (even after maxing out its download speed,) then turning around and finding out the test was over before being able to play many games at all.

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Just now, Estimated_Prophet said:

What you said about low skill ceiling and easy damage though is why carriers will continue to be hated.

There are plenty of people that don't like that game having been catered towards BBs having the lowest skill floor (at the expense of the other ship types), so I think you could be right about that angst being shifted to CVs. 

Just now, Estimated_Prophet said:

Why should I be bitter?

I understand the frustration the current CV players feel.  It sucks to have invested so much time and having the rung pulled out from under you.  I've come to terms with the fact this game is always changing and at some point I'll likely want to just walk away.  With the all of the changes we've seen recently, and the rework (and subs) on the horizon, we are likely in for a bumpy ride ahead.  I've adopted a lets wait and see attitude instead of resentment.  

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14 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Can anyone please explain to me how a system that is basically manual attacks on steroids is supposed to be an improvement; when the skill gap of players who couldn’t grasp manual attacks in the RTS system is why this rework is occurring in the first place?

Because it's not about players being unable to grasp one manual attack at a time, it's about players being unable to grasp several different manual attacks in different locations, plus keep DDs spotted and avoid strafes, within a narrow timespan.

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Thank you everyone for your comments, but I wanted to touch on a few points that have been brought up.

 

CVs are the best scouts?   Please do not take offense to this, but perhaps you should play the rework next time.  I play a lot of BBs as well, and CV planes in the current RTS meta are the best scouts period the end.  In the rework, they are only 1/2 as good and only when they are avoiding the AA.  For example, a Worchester completely chews up whatever you throw at them especially if they are near another decent AA ship.  What this means is that you will only get perhaps 1 minute of spotting on this ship by plane.  That is only two salvos from a standard BB, three if you are running Adrenaline rush, or have a faster then 30s reload.  Since the rework is completely about a damage farm, 90% of the rework CV captains are not trying to spot and instead are going for the damage resulting in perhaps 20 seconds of spotting this ship before they are out of planes/or ammo, or probably both.

 

Survival Rates and the CV - Yes, in RTS the CV is usually the last to die.  However over the twenty games i play in a cv during the rework, I was killed by fire/flood/DDs BEFORE 1/2 my team died.  Why?  because I was not able to dodge torps using WSAD.  I like the fact that I can use the Auto pilot while I am out flying initially, but the longer the game goes on, the more likely you have a shimi sneaking around the map edges watching where my planes are landing and sending 15 torps my way.  You cant torp beat using only the auto pilot, at least not very well.  Even using WSAD on something like a midway the odds are not in your favor, but are much better then using the autopilot.  When you know a shimi is around you probably already have planes looking for them...but if you are controlling planes and you spot  torps instead, you have to recal the planes, move your CV, then relaunch the planes and HOPE he is not running reload booster.  Lord help you if he is OR he has friends

 

Caps and DDs - Just wanted to share my thoughts here.  The DD META has changed.  DDs are still very useful scouts and with the introduction of ships like Stalingrad and soon Alaska, DDs need to be careful.  However with the rework DDs also need to be very careful about rocket planes.  their shotgun type approach will be especially bad for the British and Russian DDs who can not sit in their smoke for a full minute and a half.  That said, There is a lot of radar out there.  You will be hard pressed to go into a map in a gearing, or shimikaze, or any other T10 DD and not shake your head at the number of radar cruisers in your game.  Going straight for a cap is suicide, especially when you know that there is probably a Des Moines or worse a Worchester sitting behind that island safe from BB fire, but well inside radar range of the cap you were thinking about taking.  Caps now must be fought over by the TEAM, not just the DD players.  BB drivers, we can not longer just sit back and target each other.  The cruisers control the map.  Wherever they park, we need to flush them out with crossfire so that our DDs can do their jobs of scouting, capping, and torping.  Kurf sitting on the 1-3 lines does your team zero good.  

 

Angst shifting from BBs to CVs? - To a degree, maybe, but BBs just became damage farm for the CVs.  That said, BBs that sail in straight lines deserve to be torped, or citadelled.  I love my BBs, but I also love my CV (although I will admit, I am not a great CV, average at best).  The rework will bring more people to the CV, but it will also take a majority of CV mains and probably either force them out of the game completely, or they will learn to drive a different class.  Similar to when Blizzard made raiding easier in the Cataclysm expansion of WOW.  They lost ALOT of hardcore raiders and raid groups because it was pointless to work for weeks to kill a boss for gear that raidfinder gave away practically that was only slightly weaker then your hard earned gear.  I can not blame any class of ships when they said XXX needs to YYY.  Each class of ships has their own "roles" so to speak, DD will remain viable scouts, but they need the support of the rest of the team.  CL/CA need to kill whatever is shooting/radaring the DDs, BBs need to kill the CL/CA shooting at their DDs, and the CV (in the rework) now has the same objective.  

 

I urge everyone to continue to post your thoughts.  I am hopeful that what we just played is comparable to an unbalanced Alpha test and that ALOT of changes and polish are added before the next test cycle.  See you in game.

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The only things ive noticed after doing some testing is that there needs to be some tutorials introduced in terms of the new mechanics and perhaps a slight adjustment to the way bombers work as theres no UI telling you an ideal time to attempt a bombing run. Either you land your bombs perfectly or you do what I did over and over again and either launch them to early or to late. Anyway looking forward to doing some more testing.

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10 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

They are still the best scouts. They can still do it faster and safer than anyone else. The difference is that now they can only technically do it in 2 places (the planes and the carrier) rather than 9 or so that was possible before. As for preferring to see 6 groups spotting you, you are not thinking about the team and the implications to the entire match. Being able to use one group to perma-spot someone is fine. Any ship can do that technically. What they don't want is a CV be able to perma-spot every DD and cruiser on the enemy team at once and keep all caps constantly under surveillance unless the enemy CV intervenes. That's what really good CV captains could do under the old system that was really game-breaking. That's the big thing they wanted to kill in this iteration which is why CVs only have 1 airgroup to control. 

8 is the real max, if your spotting with your ship, your a dead man. And only Hak can do that many. And sure, you could spread 8 groups on Hak to the wind to find ships. You could keep the ships perma-spotted, but at a cost. Cause if your using the fighters at A and B to light a couple ships, no they aren't in place to defend your team at C, any bomber you use to keep the red team spotted isn't attacking and doing damage and is putting off a cycle that will take it 2-3 minutes to complete to return and attack, CV's are basically tied with BB's as the worst rewarded ships for spotting (in the 2 categories each is either 3rd or 4th in 1), and that spotting only makes a difference if your team shoots whats spotted. And even then, BB's are almost always spotted anyway, most cruisers get down to a range by the time people are done that the only way to spot it is to fly into it's AA. The only one with a real issue is DD's, who at this point are having just as much issue with broken as hell radar, which I'll give them, but they could just as easily solve that by drastically reducing the aerial spotting ranges, and they could do it less drastically on cruisers too. Make the spotted ranges so low that by the time skills and upgrades are applied aerial spotting range is .5 km-1km making it between 1-2 km overall where they can be spotted. At that point, they are spotted in a 1x1 or 2x2 square, when I think the smallest CV's see is a 3.6x3.6 km grid square. If they aren't in the right quarter/half/less on some higher tier maps - still miss it. And being that small, they'd have to waste time actively keeping you spotted, not just park them, and you force them to be in range that even the lowest range AA guns in the game can hit them. Lower cruisers that bit as well that CV's if the cruiser turns their AA off can suck them into range of 40 mm and DP's that will lay waste to them. Because when any DD captain that's good is in a CV match see's planes headed his way, which, he will see anywhere between 3-5 km before they see him, will if he hasn't been sticking close to a cruiser/BB already, usually flee towards one who's AA range can potentially keep him hidden. Especially because with the AA works, it can hit through mountains, without revealing the ships location. Because as much as you say about us watching caps, I've seen cruisers park so that at best, we can only watch our side of the cap.

Also, while the physical ship, which unlike any other is effectively defenseless is safer, a CV can't even get planes in the air till around 40-50 seconds after the match starts, from a spawn point behind the DD's and cruisers. So the DD's and Cruisers have just under a minute more to get in position. After that, depending on where exactly the planes are going to scout, if it's close, say somehow only 3 squares from the CV, that's roughly 30 seconds more. But when you spawn near C, and the team goes AB, odds are it's about 40-50 seconds more till they reach B, and over a minute to A. DD's usually, or a radar cruiser, are first to make spots, though once it's planes are in the air, yes, they can redeploy to an area faster to spot. But again, at the cost of potentially not doing it's actual jobs of fleet defense and attacking ships. Meanwhile a DD can get within 5-6 km of ships and periodically launch torps without ever being seen or shot at, a luxury planes don't have as they can only attack once, and the only thing they might out spot is a BB. And if we lose our planes trying to scout, it's like our turrets being destroyed. And DD's can keep ships lit almost indefinitely as well, without being seen, barring radar lighting them or a DD with a similar spotting range or better. 

To which, odds are, actual constant surveillance of caps is usually handled by fighters, as they would also be looking for enemy attack planes. which again, now Hak is the only one with 3. 

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11 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I'd love to hear how an aircraft that goes 150-200 kts. isn't the best scout.

Well, in the rework they are better at single target scouting as with manual controls and multiple attack runs we can chill outside AA ranges and occasionally pop in and hit with rockets and bombs while keeping the target lit. Why I'm actually against that. In regards to the rework CV spotting I actually sided with you, my comment of you being was the word "Still". 

To Which -

  • Those "150-200 knot speeds" translate to roughly 10 seconds to get through a grid square. Which, after the planes are in position yes, will out run a DD to spot something 9/10 times.
  • At game start, if the CV loads in on time, he can't launch planes for at least 30-40+ seconds, which takes a further 10-12 to get off the deck, plus, the 10 seconds per square to get into position. So, at match start, they are playing catch up.
  • To which is not aided by the fact that while BB's are only a little less spotted, aerial spotting range of cruisers is roughly 3/4 that of a ships, and DD's roughly half. With most cruisers able to get aerial spotting range down around where AA can kick in, maybe even less, to ward off planes. 
  • Planes are always spotted at 8 km, by anything. DD's biggest threat range wise is another ship around 5.5 and up kilometers. 
  • DD's can hide inside a cruiser or BB's AA bubble unseen. Where as another DD can spot potentially with nothing shooting at them if it's a DD they can out spot. 
  • Planes are effectively a CV's turrets, so, we lose our turrets when were losing planes, which, is way more likely than you think.
  • They can't spot for :etc_swear:in a storm, maybe 1-2 km, DD's and other ships can still see 8 km.
  • We can't spot anything in smoke, even it's it a Mass, Iowas, Mino, and 3 Des with DEf AA activated - a DD can as can other ships. 
  • Planes have ammo limits, we launch torps or drop bombs, the planes can't do anything but spot, till they land at the carrier, which, is one thing if the DD can be sunk in a couple seconds by team fire, but another thing entirely if it's full health and the teams not really hitting it because you likely have near 60 seconds to get back, another 10 to land, 30-40 rearm, 10-12 off the deck, 50-60 back to go engage a target again with that group, so putting it off 2 minutes to spot isn't highly practical given CV's are not well rewarded for spotting. In fact we tie with BB's for worst rewarded. Also, if fighters are doing their job, they too, have limits on ammo. A DD can spot unseen and launch torps, and continue spotting while waiting on a reload, or shoot at with main guns if they wish and feel they can dodge.
  • In that same vein, if planes are off scouting they may not be in position to help kill that guy that's working on a kraken, or to cover that BB that if he has just 10 more seconds can heal and get back in the fight throwing out a max damage equal or better than mine every 60 seconds as opposed to every 2-3 minutes. 
  • And of course having to dance around AA which we can't know ranges for due to builds and the fact that they can be behind a mountain and hit, or in smoke and hit, and some of these ships decimate planes in a hurry. 

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