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Tier 8 Cruiser Thoughts

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To be fair, this is an imperfect comparison...I sold Hipper years ago and quit on Chapayev, plus haven’t bothered to grind the French.  That said, I am currently grinding Cleveland, Mogami, Baltimore and Edinburgh...plus, I occasionally sail Takao.

Baltimore - a paltry 47k damage, but Edinburgh is even worse at 42k. Cleveland is like 58k and Mogami 54k - both down somewhat, notably Mogami includes the stock grind, but Cleveland came out of the box ready to rock when the line split. Cleveland also has IFHE and no CE, Mogami has CE, but no IFHE.  The WR for all of them is good, but the sample size is small individually.  However, they often don’t feel satisfying to play when up-tiered.  Takao feels better...almost makes me want a real Atago. The heal changes how the ship feels to play. It’s not fair to Hipper since I finished it as my first Tier 8 long before her buffs...but, Hipper was frustrating and fun in its own way.

My personal enjoyment is influenced by rate of fire, I think. I like Baltimore’s gunnery more than Atago or what I remember of Hipper...though arguably Baltimore has the most Vanilla of the rifles in that trio. Even if the light cruisers have slung more damage, so far, their DPM-nibbling approach is less satisfying than big bites, to me, especially using 203mm AP.  I also really like torpedoes...especially the IJN variety, because they hit like trucks. I’m tempted to get Hipper back, or maybe throw money at Eugen just for...reasons...scientific comparison and all that. Honestly, if I pulled a 57% WR over 133 matches as a noob, Hipper cannot be a bad ship...

Generally, the cruisers highlight for me the Tier 8 problem. You can sail them well, but it often does not feel satisfying to do so. I think the reason I liked Cleveland at Tier 6 and was initially frustrated by her move is that I prefer how the game feels at Tier 6...and, generally, prefer playing 6 into 8 more than 8 into 10. There are definitely some ships I like at Tier 5/6...I wonder if, like many here, I’ll end up playing them more and grinding less?  It’s tricky, because I really need high tier ships to do the things that WG requires high tier ships for (e.g. Halsey, Ranked, etc).

Sorry...no overarching point there....just some Sunday morning reflections for discussion if you desire. 

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If you can spare the shekels, Prinz Eugen. especially with the recent heal addition.

I love mine. T10 match? No problemo, amigo.

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1 hour ago, Mahrs said:

To be fair, this is an imperfect comparison...I sold Hipper years ago and quit on Chapayev, plus haven’t bothered to grind the French.  That said, I am currently grinding Cleveland, Mogami, Baltimore and Edinburgh...plus, I occasionally sail Takao.

Baltimore - a paltry 47k damage, but Edinburgh is even worse at 42k. Cleveland is like 58k and Mogami 54k - both down somewhat, notably Mogami includes the stock grind, but Cleveland came out of the box ready to rock when the line split. Cleveland also has IFHE and no CE, Mogami has CE, but no IFHE.  The WR for all of them is good, but the sample size is small individually.  However, they often don’t feel satisfying to play when up-tiered.  Takao feels better...almost makes me want a real Atago. The heal changes how the ship feels to play. It’s not fair to Hipper since I finished it as my first Tier 8 long before her buffs...but, Hipper was frustrating and fun in its own way.

My personal enjoyment is influenced by rate of fire, I think. I like Baltimore’s gunnery more than Atago or what I remember of Hipper...though arguably Baltimore has the most Vanilla of the rifles in that trio. Even if the light cruisers have slung more damage, so far, their DPM-nibbling approach is less satisfying than big bites, to me, especially using 203mm AP.  I also really like torpedoes...especially the IJN variety, because they hit like trucks. I’m tempted to get Hipper back, or maybe throw money at Eugen just for...reasons...scientific comparison and all that. Honestly, if I pulled a 57% WR over 133 matches as a noob, Hipper cannot be a bad ship...

Generally, the cruisers highlight for me the Tier 8 problem. You can sail them well, but it often does not feel satisfying to do so. I think the reason I liked Cleveland at Tier 6 and was initially frustrated by her move is that I prefer how the game feels at Tier 6...and, generally, prefer playing 6 into 8 more than 8 into 10. There are definitely some ships I like at Tier 5/6...I wonder if, like many here, I’ll end up playing them more and grinding less?  It’s tricky, because I really need high tier ships to do the things that WG requires high tier ships for (e.g. Halsey, Ranked, etc).

Sorry...no overarching point there....just some Sunday morning reflections for discussion if you desire. 

I love my Baltimore!  The ability to sneak in close and smack people with those 203s by surprise is fantastic.

I also love Prinz Eugen for how tough it is. I do miss how hard Baltimore hits though.

My Atago, the first premium I ever bought, has been sitting in mothballs for years.

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I will observe a ship in battles that always seems to be a monster winner.   But when I manage to add it to my port I do lousy with it and the grind to the next tier is rough and no fun at all.   But once the grind is over and I go back an play that same "horrible" ship it suddenly easily plays like magic for me.   I don't know if I try to hard when grinding, or simply am relaxed after the grind, but I've had that occur in nearly every nation's line of Cruisers and Battleships.    I'd be hard pressed to pick a national line of cruisers I like best as I've had great luck with the German, US, French, and my Duca d Aosta.   The Japanese have been a notch down for me while the British I wish I had never spent a single credit on!    I have the worked up the Edinburgh but really have not enjoyed, or liked any of their cruisers or battleships.    

Even with my own below average to average playing ability, I've found that adding the IFHE Captain's Skill to my cruisers, especially those below 8" is a major plus factor for getting increased damage.   My first try with it was my Seattle.   Our team did a lemming train to the west side while I attempted to do a defense of the right side cap and a fighting withdrawal.  Another ship on our team hid in the far corner away from all action but near the end of the game was really raking me over the coals.   Then an enemy captain defended me by messaging (right after he finally sank me) with, "Seattle guarded your spawn and annoyed hell out of me whole match with damn shattering HE!”   To my surprise, I amassed 92,825 in damage in that game.    

If you haven't tried IFHE, or are unsure I'd recommend watching this excellent video by Flamu on IFHE;  

   There are a number of excellent video's but this one really explains it step by step using a training room.    

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I recently aquired the Hipper. My initial feel has been good. Nice accuracy, guns hit hard enough and especially if they turn their broadsides to you.

Good maneuverability with B hull. Still use the Hydro instead of Def AA. 10.9 detectability with CE and camo.

I wasn't thrilled with the armor when I first looked at it before taking her out. But I was surprised how many shots deflected when I kept her angled. 

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Hipper was a really enjoyable grind at T8. Probably my favorite. Ed when played well was fun. Mogami was fun. I ground the old NO at t8 which I loved the stealth/radar combo. CM was strong too. Didn't like the Chappy as much as Schors, but when I kept her back I did a lot of damage.

Roon was the only t9 I liked. the rest made me want to pull my hair out.

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Mogami with double rudder shift (it doesn't really need CE) is a beast. It turns faster than many DDs. Kite at range and dodge when you see them fire back. It really needs IFHE though with the 155s. I'd respec if you can afford it. 

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Tier 8(and tier 9 to a degree) are IMO fairly rough spots for cruisers overall - they feel like they are at at the ebb of their relative power, get uptiered frequently, and there aren't really many standout cruisers that make you go "ooh" or "ahhh".

Most of my cruiser line keeper ships are at tiers 5-7 and tier 10, there seem to be more potent and fun individual cruisers in those ranges(virtually all of the tier 10s are good).

...

Edited by Dr_Powderfinger

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5 hours ago, So_lt_Goes said:

If you can spare the shekels, Prinz Eugen. especially with the recent heal addition.

I love mine. T10 match? No problemo, amigo.

Good God...after three Tier 8 matches in a row with Cleveland...please give me a Tier X match...horrible doesn't even being to describe the experience so far today.

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1 hour ago, DouglasMacAwful said:

Mogami with double rudder shift (it doesn't really need CE) is a beast. It turns faster than many DDs. Kite at range and dodge when you see them fire back. It really needs IFHE though with the 155s. I'd respec if you can afford it. 

I only run the 155s because the 203s are a straight downgrade - if the reload were even close to reasonable, I'd run 203 all the way.

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2 hours ago, wstugamd said:

Hipper was a really enjoyable grind at T8. Probably my favorite. Ed when played well was fun. Mogami was fun. I ground the old NO at t8 which I loved the stealth/radar combo. CM was strong too. Didn't like the Chappy as much as Schors, but when I kept her back I did a lot of damage.

Roon was the only t9 I liked. the rest made me want to pull my hair out.

My hatred for Roon is beyond my ability to quantify...was happy to sell that one.  USN was clearly 2nd tier back when, so I never bothered with the line. 

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I'm with you OP. I enjoyed most of the T8 cruisers I have played on their own, but I didn't enjoy them in T10 MM. Pre-buff Hipper was an exception, it was just dull for me. Mogami needs a tad more range to be comfortable on the wide open T10 maps. Cleveland's and Baltimore's range felt okay with their radar.

I really liked the Baltimore, but I just wasn't having fun playing it the 3/4 of the time I was facing 8 T10s. I ended up using spare FXP to finish it, skip Buffalo, and unlock Des Moines.

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Baltimore is fine for the tier, but I liked her better when she was a Tier IX.  Still, as a Tier VIII and the prospect of her face tanking Tier VI-VII BBs, many of which have 381mm or smaller guns, is hilarious.  The ROF of the guns makes her very comfortable to use.  Matter of fact, it's her reload that endears her to more players today than Tier IX Buffalo.  Buffalo has 12 of those same, powerful guns as Baltimore's 9, but Baltimore has a faster reload, and there are times when you really shouldn't unmask to fire the rear turret(s).  Add in concealment just under 10km and 9km Radar, as well as powerful AA, the SHS AP shells, and she is a well rounded Cruiser for the tier.

 

Personally, I have always been amused by Hipper's fluctuating reputation in the game before her big buffs recently.  When the German Cruiser Line was new, she was considered a pretty decent Cruiser but uninspiring.  Then she got the 27mm bow buff.  Even then, her reputation still dwindled.  Even with the German Cruiser HE Pen Buff, she still wasn't considered a good CA.  But right now she's pretty great.  27mm bow, better handling and gun play than before, strong AA, awesome Hydro (but Hydro and DF compete for the same consumable slot), tons of torpedoes to put down even a BB that disrespects her by getting close.  When she's top tier, she can literally charge a good number of those lower tier BBs with impunity and torpedo the sh*t out of them.

 

Edinburgh?... I felt she was pretty meh.  To me she was an over tiered Fiji.  Awesome concealment though, but the rest of the ship I felt was uninspiring.  However, if you are feeling adventurous, you can do a Stealth Build Edinburgh and drop Smoke for Radar.  I did that towards the end of my grind with her.  It took a lot getting used to but you surprise a lot of people because they don't expect RN CLs to ditch Smoke for Radar.  Consider this training for the notion of Radar Minotaur, which itself is an interesting form of High Value - High Risk play.  You can't do this with IX Neptune, her concealment is awful.

 

Current VIII Cleveland to me is amazing compared to her VI version.  Great concealment, nice DPM, awesome stealth + radar combo (though that will change just slightly after the Concealment Expert nerf), awesome AA, top-of-the-line consumables access.  The turret traverse she has now is leagues better than her rusty turret rings when she was in Tier VI.  Cleveland can maneuver defensively while her guns can track the target well enough.  This was impossible to do with any degree of comfort when she was in Tier VI.  Long range gunnery and alpha strike damage isn't what she's good for, but she gives options and answers for lots of situations.

 

If you like "Open Water Cruiser-ing" and tormenting BBs at range, OP, I highly suggest Charles Martel.  She actually has very decent concealment for the tier, stealthier than IX Saint-Louis and X Henri IV.  She sails nicely and her gunnery is excellent at range against BBs.  But Cruisers at range may be a problem because French Cruiser shells have a tiny bit of float for them.  IMO, you'll struggle to hit an IJN or German Cruiser at range while they will reliably hit you in return.  But give Charles Martel open water, room to run and maneuver, and she feels perfectly at home.  If things look too stupid, your concealment is good enough where you simply "Go Dark" and fight again at a better opportunity.

 

As for the Tier X Cruisers, they're all great candidates.  It simply depends on play preference.  Chances are, one of those X Cruisers has your play style and they're all d*mn good at what they do.  Tier X Cruisers is IMO, one of the most balanced ship type : tier in the game.  They're all very strong but still have to be wary to protect some very significant weaknesses.  Even "Battleship" Hindenburg can be easy to delete.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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8 hours ago, Mahrs said:

To be fair, this is an imperfect comparison...I sold Hipper years ago and quit on Chapayev, plus haven’t bothered to grind the French.  That said, I am currently grinding Cleveland, Mogami, Baltimore and Edinburgh...plus, I occasionally sail Takao.

Baltimore - a paltry 47k damage, but Edinburgh is even worse at 42k. Cleveland is like 58k and Mogami 54k - both down somewhat, notably Mogami includes the stock grind, but Cleveland came out of the box ready to rock when the line split. Cleveland also has IFHE and no CE, Mogami has CE, but no IFHE.  The WR for all of them is good, but the sample size is small individually.  However, they often don’t feel satisfying to play when up-tiered.  Takao feels better...almost makes me want a real Atago. The heal changes how the ship feels to play. It’s not fair to Hipper since I finished it as my first Tier 8 long before her buffs...but, Hipper was frustrating and fun in its own way.

My personal enjoyment is influenced by rate of fire, I think. I like Baltimore’s gunnery more than Atago or what I remember of Hipper...though arguably Baltimore has the most Vanilla of the rifles in that trio. Even if the light cruisers have slung more damage, so far, their DPM-nibbling approach is less satisfying than big bites, to me, especially using 203mm AP.  I also really like torpedoes...especially the IJN variety, because they hit like trucks. I’m tempted to get Hipper back, or maybe throw money at Eugen just for...reasons...scientific comparison and all that. Honestly, if I pulled a 57% WR over 133 matches as a noob, Hipper cannot be a bad ship...

Generally, the cruisers highlight for me the Tier 8 problem. You can sail them well, but it often does not feel satisfying to do so. I think the reason I liked Cleveland at Tier 6 and was initially frustrated by her move is that I prefer how the game feels at Tier 6...and, generally, prefer playing 6 into 8 more than 8 into 10. There are definitely some ships I like at Tier 5/6...I wonder if, like many here, I’ll end up playing them more and grinding less?  It’s tricky, because I really need high tier ships to do the things that WG requires high tier ships for (e.g. Halsey, Ranked, etc).

Sorry...no overarching point there....just some Sunday morning reflections for discussion if you desire. 

If you like fast firing guns and your grinding the US line you may Not like the Seattle much but ... when you get the Worcester your gonna love it

have finished grinding German, Japanese and US Cruiser lines and sold all my tier Vllls and most Tier lX Cruisers

to play them in today’s MM .. not much fun for me facing X Cruisers

Edited by HMCS_Devilfish

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8 hours ago, Mahrs said:

To be fair, this is an imperfect comparison...I sold Hipper years ago and quit on Chapayev, plus haven’t bothered to grind the French.  That said, I am currently grinding Cleveland, Mogami, Baltimore and Edinburgh...plus, I occasionally sail Takao.

Baltimore - a paltry 47k damage, but Edinburgh is even worse at 42k. Cleveland is like 58k and Mogami 54k - both down somewhat, notably Mogami includes the stock grind, but Cleveland came out of the box ready to rock when the line split. Cleveland also has IFHE and no CE, Mogami has CE, but no IFHE.  The WR for all of them is good, but the sample size is small individually.  However, they often don’t feel satisfying to play when up-tiered.  Takao feels better...almost makes me want a real Atago. The heal changes how the ship feels to play. It’s not fair to Hipper since I finished it as my first Tier 8 long before her buffs...but, Hipper was frustrating and fun in its own way.

My personal enjoyment is influenced by rate of fire, I think. I like Baltimore’s gunnery more than Atago or what I remember of Hipper...though arguably Baltimore has the most Vanilla of the rifles in that trio. Even if the light cruisers have slung more damage, so far, their DPM-nibbling approach is less satisfying than big bites, to me, especially using 203mm AP.  I also really like torpedoes...especially the IJN variety, because they hit like trucks. I’m tempted to get Hipper back, or maybe throw money at Eugen just for...reasons...scientific comparison and all that. Honestly, if I pulled a 57% WR over 133 matches as a noob, Hipper cannot be a bad ship...

Generally, the cruisers highlight for me the Tier 8 problem. You can sail them well, but it often does not feel satisfying to do so. I think the reason I liked Cleveland at Tier 6 and was initially frustrated by her move is that I prefer how the game feels at Tier 6...and, generally, prefer playing 6 into 8 more than 8 into 10. There are definitely some ships I like at Tier 5/6...I wonder if, like many here, I’ll end up playing them more and grinding less?  It’s tricky, because I really need high tier ships to do the things that WG requires high tier ships for (e.g. Halsey, Ranked, etc).

Sorry...no overarching point there....just some Sunday morning reflections for discussion if you desire. 

I stopped reading there.

Sail Takao. Make money. Burn people.

I'm sure you said a lot of really important and intelligent stuff after you said you only sail Takao occasionally but I just couldn't read on after that.

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4 hours ago, LubzinNJ said:

I stopped reading there.

Sail Takao. Make money. Burn people.

I'm sure you said a lot of really important and intelligent stuff after you said you only sail Takao occasionally but I just couldn't read on after that.

Hahaha, you're a fan, I take it?  Takao, I think, has my record for most dev strikes in a single match at...hmm....3x I believe (thought it might have been 4x for a moment).  Two of them were BB.  Comical that I get 16x 10km torps in that thing...and that some days folks forget you have them.  There are few things more amusing that watching a BB repair a fire(s) only to eat one of your torps a few seconds later...and you just chuckle while the damage counter ticks. 

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5 hours ago, Mahrs said:

My hatred for Roon is beyond my ability to quantify...was happy to sell that one.  USN was clearly 2nd tier back when, so I never bothered with the line. 

I’m sorry you hated the Roon. I dropped cits like I shot volleys. Tanky. I rocked the Roon. 

USN old line has some challenges although I loved them, but the DM is well worth the grid! 

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4 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Baltimore is fine for the tier, but I liked her better when she was a Tier IX.  Still, as a Tier VIII and the prospect of her face tanking Tier VI-VII BBs, many of which have 381mm or smaller guns, is hilarious.  The ROF of the guns makes her very comfortable to use.  Matter of fact, it's her reload that endears her to more players today than Tier IX Buffalo.  Buffalo has 12 of those same, powerful guns as Baltimore's 9, but Baltimore has a faster reload, and there are times when you really shouldn't unmask to fire the rear turret(s).  Add in concealment just under 10km and 9km Radar, as well as powerful AA, the SHS AP shells, and she is a well rounded Cruiser for the tier.

Personally, I have always been amused by Hipper's fluctuating reputation in the game before her big buffs recently.  When the German Cruiser Line was new, she was considered a pretty decent Cruiser but uninspiring.  Then she got the 27mm bow buff.  Even then, her reputation still dwindled.  Even with the German Cruiser HE Pen Buff, she still wasn't considered a good CA.  But right now she's pretty great.  27mm bow, better handling and gun play than before, strong AA, awesome Hydro (but Hydro and DF compete for the same consumable slot), tons of torpedoes to put down even a BB that disrespects her by getting close.  When she's top tier, she can literally charge a good number of those lower tier BBs with impunity and torpedo the sh*t out of them.

Edinburgh?... I felt she was pretty meh.  To me she was an over tiered Fiji.  Awesome concealment though, but the rest of the ship I felt was uninspiring.  However, if you are feeling adventurous, you can do a Stealth Build Edinburgh and drop Smoke for Radar.  I did that towards the end of my grind with her.  It took a lot getting used to but you surprise a lot of people because they don't expect RN CLs to ditch Smoke for Radar.  Consider this training for the notion of Radar Minotaur, which itself is an interesting form of High Value - High Risk play.  You can't do this with IX Neptune, her concealment is awful.

Current VIII Cleveland to me is amazing compared to her VI version.  Great concealment, nice DPM, awesome stealth + radar combo (though that will change just slightly after the Concealment Expert nerf), awesome AA, top-of-the-line consumables access.  The turret traverse she has now is leagues better than her rusty turret rings when she was in Tier VI.  Cleveland can maneuver defensively while her guns can track the target well enough.  This was impossible to do with any degree of comfort when she was in Tier VI.  Long range gunnery and alpha strike damage isn't what she's good for, but she gives options and answers for lots of situations.

If you like "Open Water Cruiser-ing" and tormenting BBs at range, OP, I highly suggest Charles Martel.  She actually has very decent concealment for the tier, stealthier than IX Saint-Louis and X Henri IV.  She sails nicely and her gunnery is excellent at range against BBs.  But Cruisers at range may be a problem because French Cruiser shells have a tiny bit of float for them.  IMO, you'll struggle to hit an IJN or German Cruiser at range while they will reliably hit you in return.  But give Charles Martel open water, room to run and maneuver, and she feels perfectly at home.  If things look too stupid, your concealment is good enough where you simply "Go Dark" and fight again at a better opportunity.

As for the Tier X Cruisers, they're all great candidates.  It simply depends on play preference.  Chances are, one of those X Cruisers has your play style and they're all d*mn good at what they do.  Tier X Cruisers is IMO, one of the most balanced ship type : tier in the game.  They're all very strong but still have to be wary to protect some very significant weaknesses.  Even "Battleship" Hindenburg can be easy to delete.

I keep toying with mounting the Hindy legendary mod and attempting a bit of open water play like I did with Hipper and Nurn way back when.  Hindy needs company at Tier X though, and I think I will really like Des Moines...at least I hope so.  I'm confident I'll like Zao as well.  I hadn't really thought about Henri and the rest...stopped back on La Gal a while back.  

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They are all good cruisers, but particularly suffer from being uptired.

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6 hours ago, Mahrs said:

My hatred for Roon is beyond my ability to quantify...was happy to sell that one.  USN was clearly 2nd tier back when, so I never bothered with the line. 

I played a few games in the Hindy as a CB rental and really liked it, so I started grinding. Was doing ok until the Hipper. I don't like that ship. My engine got knocked out so frequently I spent 130k elite xp to respec into last stand. Still can't make it work. So playing that very little now and spending most of my time grinding the Ibuki to get the Zao ahead of next CB season. I really liked the Mogami. The Ibuki just seems a slower version of it, not quite as fun as it's t8 little brother. 

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1 hour ago, Mahrs said:

I keep toying with mounting the Hindy legendary mod and attempting a bit of open water play like I did with Hipper and Nurn way back when.  Hindy needs company at Tier X though, and I think I will really like Des Moines...at least I hope so.  I'm confident I'll like Zao as well.  I hadn't really thought about Henri and the rest...stopped back on La Gal a while back.  

Hindenburg is a funny paradox.  The ship is built for short ranged fights, even the protection system.  Even BBs will tend to get Overpens instead of Citadels against her in these ranges.  Where DM, Zao, Henri IV, especially Minotaur can get ripped apart by 406mm+ BBs in short range, not Hindenburg.  Just some Overpens, maybe a Pen if unlucky.  Bristling with 6km torpedoes, she's fearsome in that kind of fight.

 

But that's not how she's typically played.  She's almost always played as a long range spammer, fighting at 16km+ is the norm.  However, it's in fighting in these ranges is how her protection scheme that serves her so well in short range fights, is where it fails her.  This is when she eats multi-citadel hits.  You can d*mn well bet my Montana guns for Hindenburgs at range.

 

The majority of the owners of this ship dare not fight in short ranges, which is funny :Smile_trollface:  All they know of is her long range prowess and HE spam + fires.  Even in situations where it would be ideal for Hindenburg to fight in confined waters, almost all will never do such a thing and choose to stay at super long range.  She is one of the most flexible Cruisers in the game, but she's typically played as a very one-dimensional ship.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Hipper's filthy secret is that it's one of the most forgiving cruisers when bottom tier. 

It has some of the best bow armor in the game, and against a tier 10 BB that doesn't know what they're doing it's a stone is a stone cold killer -- if they aim for the waterline of your bow you get to laugh all the way to 6km.  And even broadside, if you're forced into a "suicide turn" it takes a good shot, and not just any shot, to citadel a Hipper. 

Good guns, IMO, 

 

 

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1 hour ago, wstugamd said:

I’m sorry you hated the Roon. I dropped cits like I shot volleys. Tanky. I rocked the Roon. 

USN old line has some challenges although I loved them, but the DM is well worth the grid! 

I know it's me.  Truly.  I remember hearing and reading "Roon is the strongest Tier IX cruiser."  In many respect, the only one that has something better and/or unique from their Tier VIII predecessor.  Her wonky turrets boasted better range and RoF than Baltimore or Ibuki, they were bigger than Donskoi.  Her secondaries and torps are borrowed from Scharnhorst, decent hydro.  Lots going for her, especially back in the day.  We just never got on well together...off, somewhat, when you consider Nurnberg was one of the best for me.

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16 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Hindenburg is a funny paradox.  The ship is built for short ranged fights, even the protection system.  Even BBs will tend to get Overpens instead of Citadels against her in these ranges.  Where DM, Zao, Henri IV, especially Minotaur can get ripped apart by 406mm+ BBs in short range, not Hindenburg.  Just some Overpens, maybe a Pen if unlucky.  Bristling with 6km torpedoes, she's fearsome in that kind of fight.

But that's not how she's typically played.  She's almost always played as a long range spammer, fighting at 16km+ is the norm.  However, it's in fighting in these ranges is how her protection scheme that serves her so well in short range fights, is where it fails her.  This is when she eats multi-citadel hits.  You can d*mn well bet my Montana guns for Hindenburgs at range.

The majority of the owners of this ship dare not fight in short ranges, which is funny :Smile_trollface:  All they know of is her long range prowess and HE spam + fires.  Even in situations where it would be ideal for Hindenburg to fight in confined waters, almost all will never do such a thing and choose to stay at super long range.  She is one of the most flexible Cruisers in the game, but she's typically played as a very one-dimensional ship.

I spend most of my matches trying to get close...or at least to a flank...there are matches where I struggle to even get in range.  Like you say, it's closing the gap that's the killer.  I had one match where I combo-killed a Fletcher, Des Moines, Z-23 and Massachusetts in a congested cap...limited them to fighting me one at a time from less than 10km with the terrain.  To be fair, the DM misplayed badly and ate a broadside volley up close AND blocked the Z-23's torp shot.  She's amazing in her element, like Hipper...I just cannot seem to get them there.

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