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Packboy14

Thoughts on CV rework.

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Carrier Rework

There are somethings I need to say before my opinion. First thing is that I mostly play Destroyers, Battleships, and Cruisers, but I have played carriers to a certain extent so I do know what it is like to play both the rework and pre-rework. Next thing I want to say is that I don't claim to be any amazing player at the game and that this again is just my opinion. The final thing I wanted to say was please be civil and please don't say that they should revert the carrier rework. I don't think WG are looking to do so and stating this will not provide anything to the conversation. With that out of the way lets get to my opinion.

So I would say that I had fun when I started to play the new carriers. Then I played a little bit more and started to feel bored. I will say that the concept of them is ok and I am fine with it. I will have to say that it does feel more like you are the squadron and not the carrier itself. The problem with the carrier rework itself is it's too easy to play. There really isn't anyway for the carrier to have a real pvp action. The best thing a ship can do is either maneuver or set up AA on one side. It really just feels like you are playing a PVE game and not a PVP game. Another problem is the complexity of the new carriers. All you have to do is fly over, line up the target indicator and release. Then you rinse and repeat for the whole battle duration. The next part I have a problem with is the ship vs. aircraft interaction. I have always not really liked how the interaction has been. With the pre-rework carriers, as a surface ship you relied completely on rng and now it is the same for the long and medium range AA. The game could give you completely bad rng and you get screwed on how much the carrier can attack you. If you get amazing rng, you could just shoot down almost the entire squadron before it does any significant amount of damage to you. Again there is this lack of outplay potential against each other. Before you say, well you can get screwed by rng with shell dispersion, you can counteract the damage by angling your armor and taking evasive maneuvers. With carriers, they can just mount an attack on any side that they want and continue to pummel you without you being able to do much at all. My final problems with this rework is you cannot switch control between the carrier and planes themselves, as many of you know you have to send your planes back to the carrier in order to do this. There is one glaring bug that relates to this, but will definitely be fixed that should be mentioned still. This bug is the one where you are playing as a carrier and are trying to set points on the minimap to autopilot and the game thinks that you are trying to press the map sectors. This means that the points won't get set and this results in the player hearing "Autopilot mode enabled, Autopilot mode disabled."

Some solutions I would like to put forward for the idea of creating more complexity to make it harder for carrier's is to have more carrier on carrier action. I think that they should include some player controlled fighters so that the carrier has to also fight with the enemy carrier and not just battleships, cruisers, and destroyers. Another way to increase the skill cap of carriers is to allow for them to be able to increase or decrease the height that the planes fly at in order to hide behind islands better or make it harder for AA to shoot at. Another dimension that carriers could work with is changing the formations so that they give different bonuses with each one. Now for a way for the game to allow for ships to interact more with carriers. This idea was sort of co-opted from IChase. Allow the ships to manually fire the long and medium range weapons but also be able to switch them back to AI controlled so that they can focus on what is most important at the moment. We should also be able to switch back and forth between controlling the aircraft and the carrier without having to send back the whole squadron.

In my personal opinion I think that these solutions would solve the problems that I am currently having with the new carriers. Hopefully I can get someone else's perspective on this and maybe WG will see this thread and do something about our concerns on the new rework.

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I listened to the podcast with ichase tonight. I need to start by saying that I am already not a fan of cv play. I am not too good with cv’s and I detest seeing them in a random match. 

After listening to the podcast, I still believe that cv’s are a nuisance, and will continue to be even more of a nuisance. 

Now, from the point of view for those that enjoy cv play, I can see how it might add some spice to the cv experience. However, the testers, to include ichase did say that it does become boring doing the drop, reload, repeat sequence of play. 

It sounded like the biggest compliment was the graphics behind the new cv play with the AA blasting away and seeing it up close and personal. 

Personally, I hope that cvs would cease to exist. Since this will not happen, I just hope that one aspect of cv’s remains the same, and that is the amount of planes a carrier can have per battle, and not receive an unlimited amount of planes. 

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That is definitely and interesting point. I don't think that WG plans to do limit the new aircraft carriers but you never can tell. Do you have any other ideas to make them less of a nuisance to play against besides the first point of giving the carriers hanger capacity?

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I play CV I like them but say they should not have unlimited planes that would be a bad move. I want to try the test but WG can not fix a bug that will not let me play. One this that should be taken out is the strafe that is used for support for ground troops not air combat. CV are hard to play, but I play a DD and can kill most any CV. If WG would just make the US CV and IJN CV balanced and take out the strafe that would be the best thing

 

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1 hour ago, Magic_Fighting_Tuna said:

So...I picked an interesting time to jump back over here, so if your flying planes who's looking after the carrier?

You still are, if you want to directly control your CV, you need to hit the "F" key, and return your planes to the ship. You'll have direct control until you launch another squadron.

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13 hours ago, Castaway2006 said:

I play CV I like them but say they should not have unlimited planes that would be a bad move. I want to try the test but WG can not fix a bug that will not let me play. One this that should be taken out is the strafe that is used for support for ground troops not air combat. CV are hard to play, but I play a DD and can kill most any CV. If WG would just make the US CV and IJN CV balanced and take out the strafe that would be the best thing

 

Question is, have you played the version that's testing right now?

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CVs will be the only ship type that is immortal for at least the first half of the match while actively engaging the enemy. Their AA will deter/prevent an opposing CV from trying to snipe and any red ships will take a lot of time to work their way into range. Getting planes shot down is inconvenient but doesn't put the ship in any risk and does not effect the ships future combat capability. They will NEVER (OK, very, very rarely) be anyone's First Strike. Instead. they will usually be the last ship sunk as it is now, except they will always have full squadrons of something to launch.

I have had DDs and CAs die before firing a shot (or at least any shots that hit anything) in many games (random torps or long range citadels). CVs won't have these problems.

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13 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Question is, have you played the version that's testing right now?

Yes sir they if my bug got in I do not like it at all. WG is reinventing the wheel. As I said just tweak was all it needed.

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The WoWP stuff didn't need to happen, BUT there was some good changes on the test server that really should be looked into further.

Let's say we keep RTS style controls.

Spotting: How about keeping the mechanic from test where you lose control of the squadron once it'd done dropping ordnance. That way spotting becomes a significant trade-off; you can only do it with armed planes. For fighters, take away free movement. You have to either have them follow a friendly ship, or they land. That's it. Fighters become a pure AA measure, not bomber escorts.

Alpha damage: Lower damage per torp and bomb, but increase the chance for flooding and fires. A CV that drops all its payload on a single ship that has its Repair Party up has basically wasted its strike. 

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19 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

You still are, if you want to directly control your CV, you need to hit the "F" key, and return your planes to the ship. You'll have direct control until you launch another squadron.

I'm starting to get the feeling the rework is wrong on so many levels, after reading more into it along with this information in its current state it ruins the four reasons why I play carriers so I pray they make some real changes the other way as this is early development.

Edited by Magic_Fighting_Tuna
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the new control scheme for CVs is unacceptable, the waypoint system is not precise enough to let you go close to anything and with auto avoidance automatically turned on when you in waypoint mode not only can you not get close to islands, friendly ship will force it to make you go off course wasting time or worse getting you killed, and if you beach from it your going nowhere unless you want to abandon your strike. you will be ether spending all your time fighting with the game trying to get you ship into a optimum spot or you will be forced to camp at the back of the map in open water nowhere near you team making at most 4 strikes for the entire match because it takes so long to launch you planes, find and chose your targets, attack the targets, and retrieve your planes to rearm them to launch again.

you need to be able to toggle between controlling your planes and controlling your ship without forcing you planes to return to the ship and having to relaunch a different squad if their is even one ready to every time you need to adjust your ships course.

why not just use shift to toggle between you plane squadron and CV like you goggle between binocular view on other ships. CV doesn't have guns that you can use so theirs no a key that's not being used for anything on a CV, and planes and CVs can just fly on auto pilot wile your not directly controlling them like the CV already does now and did before.

why encourage bad players to play badly and ineffectively because of bad controls when it shouldn't be to hard to allow them to properly control their ship.

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On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 1:24 AM, SgtBeltfed said:

You still are, if you want to directly control your CV, you need to hit the "F" key, and return your planes to the ship. You'll have direct control until you launch another squadron.

that's not good enough, controls like that encourage the player to make the same mistakes that old CV players made, ether not move at all and hope his team dosent let the enemy close enough to spot and or shoot them or sail into the corner of the map and also hope they don't get spotted. both options their result in the player being ineffective because of the distance their planes have to travel to get to their targets and get back from attacking.

if you have to return your squad  from half way across the map because auto avoidance made you beach into an island because the gap you were trying to sail through was too was only 3 times as wide as you needed to get through instead of 5 times as wide or turns you into and gets you stuck on a BB because the cruiser you were in no danger of hitting got to close and now the 3 of you are at a standstill, spotted and a sitting duck and all your planes are on cooldown because this is the 3rd time that ship has got auto avoidance to change your course because he is trolling you and you have spent the first 10 min of the match doing nothing because you have to recall the squad every time you need to fix your course and then travel that distance again and hope something else doesn't come up wile your doing that.

my gripes with auto avoidance goes on. wish they would just scrap it altogether or actually have it turn completely off when you tell it to in the options instead of forcing it on when you use waypoints. I miss those early days when auto avoidance didn't work with the waypoint system.

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Maybe WG should make the CV perform more as bot while the player is "away". Normally following the set course and speed but will avoid islands (figure out the best way to get from waypoints A to B, not just turn to avoid one island and hitting another),  and turn to avoid torps. All set by a single key that would allow the player to let the bot AI take over or "stick to the plan" override.

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This rework will be the death of CV playing, so if that is WG plan, its working. If the current reviewed videos are of any indication of the game play. I will sell all mine.

it looks like;

WG has removed "x" drops of Torpedoes

WG has removed Carrier driving as a whole, its fixed destination now, which means I am screwed if I am chased by a DD, this does matter as I used to just turn and fight them, and even kill them with guns.

WG was unable to fix the map rotation error that leaves your ship upside down

I am hope some enjoy it, but

 

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On 10/29/2018 at 8:39 AM, Sabot_100 said:

Maybe WG should make the CV perform more as bot while the player is "away". 

At that point, why not just take out CVs and have planes fly in from off-map.

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On 10/29/2018 at 10:45 AM, xxxxxCronoxxxxx said:

that's not good enough, controls like that encourage the player to make the same mistakes that old CV players made, ether not move at all and hope his team dosent let the enemy close enough to spot and or shoot them or sail into the corner of the map and also hope they don't get spotted. both options their result in the player being ineffective because of the distance their planes have to travel to get to their targets and get back from attacking.

You aren't seeing the bigger picture.  Only being able to control the ship or planes is a meager attempt to raise the skill floor.  You don't face off against the enemy CV anymore, and you can't be deplaned.  There has to be some risk.  This is a small compromise that includes the nice perk of being able to immediately recall and relaunch planes to protect your carrier.  As things stand now the reworked CVs are the ships with training wheels.  Little to no risk, all reward.    

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I think the new cv will be a chllange trying to get torps or bombs on target is more difficult .This new format will make cruiser play more dominate a cruiser agianst a cv the cv will lose 99% of the time

 

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1 minute ago, jDragonFlagon said:

Is this anything like world of planes?  After this test I am certainly not playing world of planes.

The only real different between this bizarre CV rework and WoWP is that in that game you fly 1 plane at a time, whereas in the test mechanics you're flying a squadron or flight. 

Otherwise, it really does feel like an attempt to shoehorn WoWP into WoWS for no particularly good reason.

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As a recent CV player, actually a newbie, why not blend the current method with the new proposed method.   Retain the current RTS style/control with the multiple squadrons with the new attack method and slow regeneration of planes over time.

As an example for the USN give them Fighters, Rockets, Bombers & Torpedoes and the IJN Fighters, Bombers & Torpedoes.  Where the USN would have 6 of each type (1F, 1R, 1B, 1T) and the IJN have 4 of each (2F, 1B, 3T) for a deploy-able amount of 24 at any one time (of course each tier would have perhaps different amounts).  With the USN the Rocket Squadron could act as pseudo  Fighters however with a reduced strength.

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The only thing the rework does is punish stupid players less for going off on their own. One core aspect of CV play is avoiding heavy overlapping AA bubbles and picking off loners and stragglers wandering around by themselves. That aspect probably isn't going to change much, but the rework will just mean those idiotic players will either have a better chance of fending off a squadron that's focused on them, or die a more gradual death as strikes after strikes are launched against them.

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