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Yakuza137

CV Rework - Dislike.

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So I know this is still in the works but bear with me.

and yes I tried the testing.

I mainly play carriers and I have up to Hakuryu.

 

Pros: 

I guess its balanced in a way considering RTS was the main issue. Carriers can't entirely carry and turn games in their favor with a flick of their hand. 

Low skill floor: Any new player interested in carriers can start learning pretty easily. It doesn't take that much skill to do.

If you miss your torps to be honest something is wrong with you... with the exception of dive bombers. 

Cons:

Low skill ceiling: compared to current mechanics it lacks immersion and complexity. No tactics or using your brain to out-think your opponent. By the way, you can reload in mid-air instead of returning to your carrier? what??  

Majority of players complaining for the rework don't even play CARRIERSLet alone make it to tier 7 or higher.

The removal of manual functions at lower tiers made it even worse for the average new player to even start. TIER 6 is when you receive manual functions, but most players don't even practice when they do. Also, let me remind you TIER 7 is seal clubbing zone for some of us cv players. A few of us farm there and yes I have encountered tons of players daily who don't know how to use manual. As well as buying a Saipan expecting it to be OP without learning the basics which obviously costs them the game since it's pretty dang feasible to get around a FIGHTER package Saipan.  

I understand that people were tired of getting killed at low tiers against carriers, but it really helped get the situation worse by not teaching the new carrier players the basics. 

Don't say that because no one taught them, gave advice, informed. A bunch of us type in the in-game chat to explain how to ALT-manual while we play if they are new. More than once people will respond that it's too difficult, but that's because they don't practice.

I was just like a normal person when I started. Always getting strafed out of the sky, but with practice and practice over and over again I got better. I mainly carry games whenever I go into them with my carriers, but that's because I practiced. The main reason why you would get sunk in the first place is that you isolated yourself from your group. I daily have games where I have players complaining, ranting, cursing at me after I sink them for making a mistake of being alone.

*Carriers themselves are not OP It's the players who are behind who spend hours on end practicing. 

This isn't just my opinion, but also from others Carrier players. 

My apologies if my writing is poor.

 

 

 

 

carried.png

Taiho.png

Op taiho.png

Edited by Yakuza137
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I agree.

It turns CV play from a balancing act of providing vision for your team, attacking enemies and defending your fleet to who can farm damage the fastest.

You are out of your damned mind if you dont think people are going to be just as salty about having potato CVs that cant farm half the damage the enemy CV does.

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47 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I agree.

It turns CV play from a balancing act of providing vision for your team, attacking enemies and defending your fleet to who can farm damage the fastest.

You are out of your damned mind if you dont think people are going to be just as salty about having potato CVs that cant farm half the damage the enemy CV does.

Gg no fighter support report cv

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Right now irritated as hell that downloading the test client is taking so (redacted) long...

...irritated the tests are all Randoms.

To say I’ve grown to hate Randoms is to understate, (because ‘reasons.’)

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17 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Right now irritated as hell that downloading the test client is taking so (redacted) long...

...irritated the tests are all Randoms.

To say I’ve grown to hate Randoms is to understate, (because ‘reasons.’)

You might want to check your settings if its coming from the WG center. The WG center caps the dl speed by default.

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13 minutes ago, Krupp_Sabot said:

You might want to check your settings if its coming from the WG center. The WG center caps the dl speed by default.

Yet another reason to hate that thing; don’t much care what the ‘it’s fine, stop complaining,’ crowd says.

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2 hours ago, Yakuza137 said:

Majority of players complaining for the rework don't even play CARRIERSLet alone make it to tier 7 or higher.

The whole point of the re-work is to attract new players to the class so there will be less people that don't play carriers. The low CV  population isn't healthy for the game since AA consumables, specs aren't viable because you only see 1 carrier game after 6 or 7 games; it's an entire balancing parameter that is impotent cuz people don't play CVs. So players that aren't currently playing CVs absolutely need to be attracted and have a vested interest in the CV rework or else they might as well just nix the class altogether because that is the way things are going with the status quo. 

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1 hour ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I agree.

It turns CV play from a balancing act of providing vision for your team, attacking enemies and defending your fleet to who can farm damage the fastest.

You are out of your damned mind if you dont think people are going to be just as salty about having potato CVs that cant farm half the damage the enemy CV does.

People are salty because you can't do anything about perma spotting by planes and have no ability to actively do something about an attack run while they alpha all your health. Current CV concept fix the first issue by limiting how much presence a CV can have at one time. It marginally help with the second since it's easier to throw off an attack run with the new mechanic and you can't be alpha to death. I think it would be better if the ships can actively shoot back at the planes in some form though.  It's a work in progress so we'll see where it goes. I'm more optimistic about the overall health of the game w/ a CV mechanic rework than w/out.  

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Just now, NCC81701 said:

People are salty because you can't do anything about perma spotting by planes and have no ability to actively do something about an attack run while they alpha all your health. Current CV concept fix the first issue by limiting how much presence a CV can have at one time. It marginally help with the second since it's easier to throw off an attack run with the new mechanic and you can't be alpha to death. It's a work in progress so we'll see where it goes. I'm more optimistic about the overall health of the game w/ a CV mechanic rework than w/out.  

I mean that's where your CV comes into play.

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Just now, Yakuza137 said:

I mean that's where your CV comes into play.

The problem then becomes you are at the mercy of your CV player. There are some CV match ups that you might as well exit back to port because you got a 45%er CV player vs a 60%er CV player. No other class  has that kind of power to tilt a game just because the 2 player of the same ship type that are matched up have a big skill disparity. It's unrealistic to expect your average player base to pick up the class and climb up the skill progression to the current level require to play a CV competitive for even random battles. 

Look if you want CV to stay RTS mode, I think you are fighting for a lost cause. The current state of CV is so bad that if the rework doesn't work I wouldn't be surprised if they nix the class altogether and relegated to some Co-op/operation mode. 

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look at me im just the opposite. i am terrified of the new cv rework as i think carriers are going to be brokenly strongly overpowered. i really hope im wrong, but i think pretty soon it will be world of cv

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2 hours ago, Yakuza137 said:

RTS was the main issue

RTS is not the main issue, least not in that context. 

- it's spotting, fixed by drastically reducing DD spotted range from air (.5km-1 km max after upgrades, skills) and Cruisers/BB's/CV's to a point they have to be in some level of AA range (example, Cleveland's max AA range is 7.2 km, so say, 5.5, 6km aerial spotting) or really, you can leave BB's a bit over that, CV's as well, given size. This make DD's insanely hard for a CV to spot, spotting cruisers (if that's even an issue) carries risks, and well, I play BB's, we want to reduce the duration fine, but as a CV/BB player, I don't see that much reason to lower it like a DD/CA/L. 

- It's the alpha damage. Midway unleash's nearly 120000 with both TB squads, the AP bombs are I think 96000 without AS skill (112000 with). Nerf the TB's that 12 hits is 12000 damage at those tiers, that AP bombs are maybe 28000 max with AS - that solves a lot of that. 

-it's AA that is pathetic at low tiers and a bit too strong at high tiers. Solved by some of the lower tier ships getting later war refits (ala Texas) and tweaking plane HP so we get to a point AA against -2 CV is not thoroughly devastating, and vs +2 CV is not laughably inconsequential. 

- It's strafing on it's current form. Return it to the old days when it wasn't about deleting planes, it was about debuffing accuracy of grouped attack planes. With exit strafe it's no longer a matter of just lock the fighter up and keep accuracy, even if it costs a fighter you can still try and scatter the planes before they hit a ship, maybe get lucky and down a couple, and it's no longer about who's fighters are deleting who's planes because of skill, internet connection, etc. 

- It's line balance - even beyond strafing, USN's fighters, 1-1, are significantly better than IJN's, conversely, inaccurate HE DB's and attack planes with both less speed and HP than IJN's cause issues for USN. Balance fighters right for a change by lowering USN DPS, increase accuracy of HE DB's and increase USN plane HP, solve that.

Things like THIS are the problem. And barring fighters, as we effectively have none in the rework, none of those are unique purely to RTS. Yes, RTS can spread out more, but I can still perma spot DD's in the rework, better really due to the lack of proper fighters. Alpha can still be an issue in the rework, in some areas appears to be, AA is still a mess, either shredding planes or not, and line balance still doesn't seem quite there, cookie cutter as these ships are in the rework. 

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Currently, queue dodging due to the # of CVs in queue is a thing.  This is largely because, in a CV match, no longer is the whole-team matchup the major factor in victory, it’s mostly just the CV matchup.  That is the problem and, personally, I would rather gamble on 11 other people and me averaging into competence than a 75% swing in the chance of victory due to one player.

Note: this happens before you can even see who/what the CVs are let alone if you even get in the match that has them. 

I can’t imagine how this doesn’t raise red flags in everyone’s minds.

Edited by SmokeHenge
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I must say, I am disappointed about the lack of dogfighting and any sort of plane-to-plane combat.

What even is the point of carriers if there is no form of aerial combat? It's like taking away repair party away from battleships—it strips away a key part of the class's identity and role in a battle.

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28 minutes ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

I must say, I am disappointed about the lack of dogfighting and any sort of plane-to-plane combat.

What even is the point of carriers if there is no form of aerial combat? It's like taking away repair party away from battleships—it strips away a key part of the class's identity and role in a battle.

repair party is not the BB class identity,it's their main guns, CVs main identity are planes,the fighters are not the only breed of planes. i play a CV to have fun with planes and attack at extreme ranges,a manual dogfighting might increase the skill ceiling.

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2 hours ago, Mothermoy said:

look at me im just the opposite. i am terrified of the new cv rework as i think carriers are going to be brokenly strongly overpowered. i really hope im wrong, but i think pretty soon it will be world of cv

It doesn't matter. CV Rework and submarines are marketing moves calculated to attract more new interest/profits than what they stand to lose by alienating existing players. Strictly business. It's as simple as that.

What will it look like if we start seeing matches with 3 CV and 3 or 4 SS per side? Everyone else will be in cruisers or DD's just trying to stay alive and BB will become completely superfluous. Draw your own conclusions.

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OP, as someone who desperately wanted to do well in carriers but finds he can't handle the multitasking, I have to say I find the underlying basis behind the rework VERY attractive.

I like them as they are - I really do - but my brain just can't cope with all the juggling of multiple squadrons at once (I tried a higher-tier CV in Public Test and quickly lost my grip on everything). There must be a lot of other people like me who want to play carriers but don't, because they can't multitask and they don't want to let teams down over and over while they learn. The people who are born multi-taskers are the ones who are successful CV players, and anyone without those inborn skills who goes up against them is going to get slaughtered.

I think the focus in the future is going to be on carrier players learning which ships they should attack first to have the most impact on the surface battle. That's going to be the fine art in the new form of the game.

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I think the CV rework has potential and is a step in the right direction, but with what I've played so far I'm very nervous about it.  I don't find the CVs to be all that fun or dynamic to play, it's pretty one dimensional and gets repetitive very fast.....but nor do I think the rework really makes it any more fun to fight against CVs.  It's still in the early stages of testing...but deep down I've got an uneasy feeling about it.  

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The cv rework fills me with disdain as I watch devs conjure up new ridiculous Balancing measures for a variety of other platforms. Subs, cv rework, concealment, hydro is all over the place. They need to slow the [edited] down. 

I’m definitely in the camp of people who cringe at the rework and the direction it is going. 

Edited by _ENO_
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7 hours ago, Yakuza137 said:

I was just like a normal person when I started. Always getting strafed out of the sky, but with practice and practice over and over again I got better. I mainly carry games whenever I go into them with my carriers, but that's because I practiced. The main reason why you would get sunk in the first place is that you isolated yourself from your group. I daily have games where I have players complaining, ranting, cursing at me after I sink them for making a mistake of being alone.

*Carriers themselves are not OP It's the players who are behind who spend hours on end practicing. 

This isn't just my opinion, but also from others Carrier players. 

 

Yakuza,

  I agree with you...didn''t want to repost your whole post, but this sums it up best.  I'm not looking forward to this CV change and believe it's a turn for the worst.   I hope I'm wrong.

VR

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4 hours ago, Mothermoy said:

look at me im just the opposite. i am terrified of the new cv rework as i think carriers are going to be brokenly strongly overpowered. i really hope im wrong, but i think pretty soon it will be world of cv

This is also my concern. The goal is to get people to play CVs more. The easiest way to do that is to make them incredibly overpowered. I was not selected for this test, but everything I see and per a comment above is that every attack (torps, bombs, rockets) is successful. So non-CVs will be constantly flooding and burning. Eventually damage control will have to be used and then a DD can hit the ship with a single torp or start one fire and it will be devastating to the target. I see this is a way to make both CVs and DDs more popular and both very powerful. 

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5 hours ago, NCC81701 said:

The whole point of the re-work is to attract new players to the class so there will be less people that don't play carriers. The low CV  population isn't healthy for the game since AA consumables, specs aren't viable because you only see 1 carrier game after 6 or 7 games; it's an entire balancing parameter that is impotent cuz people don't play CVs. So players that aren't currently playing CVs absolutely need to be attracted and have a vested interest in the CV rework or else they might as well just nix the class altogether because that is the way things are going with the status quo. 

I would be happy if I never saw carriers.  This isn't World of Warplanes.

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5 hours ago, NCC81701 said:

People are salty because you can't do anything about perma spotting by planes and have no ability to actively do something about an attack run while they alpha all your health.

The first problem there isn't the carrier, it's the fact that the meta is so focused on trying to game the spotting system, and players being salty that they can't hide on the open ocean.

The second problem there is the alt-attacks and AP bombs on one side, and players wanting to be able to spec to game the spotting system and spam fires, and ignore AA completely, on the other side.

 

 

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2 hours ago, yashma said:

I think the CV rework has potential and is a step in the right direction, but with what I've played so far I'm very nervous about it.  I don't find the CVs to be all that fun or dynamic to play, it's pretty one dimensional and gets repetitive very fast.....but nor do I think the rework really makes it any more fun to fight against CVs.  It's still in the early stages of testing...but deep down I've got an uneasy feeling about it.  

From what we've seen of the rework and the changes to AA so far, carriers are going to be even LESS fun for other players -- and thus to the carrier-haters who cheered this change as soon as it was announced, I say "be careful what you wish for".  WG isn't doing this to make carriers easier for the carrier-haters to deal with, they're doing it to get more people into carriers, and to make carriers console-friendly.

 

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The problem with the current iteration of CV's isnt the multitasking, the alpha strike potential, or the spotting. There are ways to counter all of that with good play. The problem is a lack of balance on two fronts:

1) Never, not once has there been balanced AA vs plane interaction. Either a ship has AA that's pointless, or it's so overbuffes that the CV might as well never have que'd up. 

2) Never, not once has Wargaming ever balanced the different CV lines against each other. It has always been that one CV is dominantly stronger than its other nation's counterpart.

 

Strafing is the only skill based measure that's currently in the game that's a bit too much for some. That's the source of the skill gap. Being able to navigate the horrible imbalance and strafing mechanics. Take myself and put me up against another CV that can strafe? The surface ships decide the game. Put me up against a player that can't strafe? If there aren't too many def AA ships specced out for bft aft then I'll decide the game for you. That's an unhealthy balance. Balance has always been the problem. That's on Wargaming. Players talk. And when players talk they tell newbies not to even bother trying to learn. It's too unbalanced.

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