Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
bacononaboat

CV Rework - WG, this is Good!

108 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

185
[D33P6]
Members
496 posts
6,674 battles

Alright so I downloaded the CV rework PTS, and have played a total of four games so far. I've played a battle in the Ryujo, the Midway, the Ranger, and the Worcester. Big disclaimer, since I"m new to the way these planes make their attack runs, my experience is slanted. Also there were only 2-3 players per team. I believe as I play (and others play them more), the strikes will get more effective. TL;DR at bottom

Quick terminology explanation: When I say "strike", I mean when a few aircraft split off from the main squadron to make an attack run. The squadron is the 7-10 aircraft (varies by tier) that you can launch at once. When I say the entire squadron gets shot down, I mean it.

Visual changes:

THE AA LOOKS FREAKIN SWEET GOOD JOB WARGAMING!!!!!! Seriously when I attacked a Montana my whole screen filled up with flak IT WAS SO COOL. 

Module changes:

  • The AA modules are gone. AFT and BFT still extend range and damage, however. This means you don't get the same ridiculous AA ranges like 8.6 km Worcester AA. You'd think this would be a problem. It's not

Consumable changes:

  • Carriers can now give up damage control party for repair party. 

Plane Detection Changes:

  • Planes get spotted at 10 km uniformly across tiers and nations right now. My Ryujo (without CE) literally has better detection than its planes. There is no way you can't spot the planes right now, and not know that they're coming. DDs will spot them long before they get to the cruisers or battleships.

Carrier vs Carrier Warfare

  1. Carrier sniping seems to be very difficult to pull off now. Carrier AA is absolutely insane as the AA does a lot of damage, has an extremely high RPM (literally thousands, although this seems common across many ships), and a whopping 95% hit chance. I generally lost an entire squadron while making a single strike. This is not an exaggeration. While attempting to drop a Midway, not only did I lose my entire squadron, I lost the striking aircraft several kilometers away from the CV, before they dropped. Part of this is because the CVs get +60% AA DPM if they focus it to one side.
  2. There are only two clear ways to shoot down enemy aircraft with fighters. Either you can fly your squadron to the enemy planes to activate the fighter squadron, or you can simply fly to the enemy CV and drop fighters over him. The first option is hardly one sided - they can activate their fighter consumable, and if enemy ships are nearby, you'll probably lose at least a few planes. The second option is more effective, because the fighters can't be shot down, as they only last about 1 minute or so. If you launch aircraft with those fighters nearby, you'll lose most of your squadron in the space of a few seconds.
  3. Overall, if there is a skill gap between carrier players, it seems to have very little influence now, simply because it is so difficult for them to fight each other, and because they can no longer instantly delete ships or permanently spot destroyers. 

Carrier vs Ships Warfare:

  1. First, the AA. The AA is murderous, which is excellent. If you attack a ship who is near one or two other ships, you will lose lots of aircraft. Often I found that in the time to finish the first attack run in this scenario, I would lose about half of the total squadron. I might get a second strike off, and I would probably lose 1-2 aircraft during the attack, no matter the tier. Defensive fire. Oh boyyyyy. Running into defensive fire, no matter what cruiser it is, turns that cruiser into a current-game AA spec Des Moines. If by some miracle you start a strike that manages to drop the ship, you are very unlikely to hit the ship. Torpedoes go everywhere, bombs become even more RNG, and rockets probably won't hit. You are pretty much guaranteed to lose your whole squadron because the DFAA lasts 40 seconds on every ship that has it. In general the DFAA of AA focused ships like the Des Moines, Worcester, and Pensacola will knock your whole squadron out of the sky long in 5-6 seconds. 
  2. Playing around AA. You can definitely play around the AA, and look for vulnerable ships that are off by themselves. Obviously you're more likely to damage to these ships (unless they have DFAA), but that doesn't mean they aren't going to shoot down planes. Even ships like the Shimakaze (which now has dual purpose guns) are going to shoot down 2-3 Midway planes during the multiple strike encounter. Playing around AA can take a long time, and isn't as easy as you would think because these planes are so fast you can easily drift into enemy AA range. I don't have many games under my belt, but I'm getting the impression that there is a careful balance between being aggressive and cautious with your planes. Too cautious, and you'll get fewer strikes off in a match, and might miss a good opportunity. Too aggressive, and you'll get strike after strike shot down without doing much.
  3. The torpedo bombers. The days of alpha strike torpedo bombers are long, long gone. Most of these planes have 30-40 knot torpedoes, so you have to lead like you're playing a Sims. They also do very little damage. I found striking a bot New Mexico to be a challenge, let alone a cruiser. Setting up the attacks is tricky, although I'm confident that you can get better at this with practice. You have to approach the broadside, obviously, but due to the slow speed of these aircraft and their torpedoes, a simple 90 degree turn can completely screw up multiple attack runs. This is because you will have to circle around the ship, which takes about 6-8 seconds, during which your planes are getting shot up. And they do take lots of damage. This also gives the ship time to focus its AA, which can be deadly. This makes stacking the DOT damage difficult if you don't pick your target carefully. Lone battleships that are moving slowly can be punished, but it's hardly the alpha strike we know now. Cruisers, destroyers, and the nimbler BBs shouldn't have much problem dodging torpedo bombers. However, they might be problematic in that if you dodge them, you might end up broadside to a ship that can blap you. Overall attacking with all your torpedo bombers takes a while, and you will absolutely lose aircraft during this time.
  4. The dive bombers. These have a pretty steep learning curve. I used the dive bombers against BBs, DDs, and CAs, and let me tell you, it was tough. Dive bombers are a three step process. First, you have to very predictably approach from bow or stern. You have to guess, using an aiming indicator, where you want your bombers to start their dive. They do a silly rise, then start diving. This takes about 1-2 seconds. Then the bombing starts, which is tricky because you only have 1-2 seconds to drop your bombs, from my experience. The bombs take another second or two to hit, and boy are they inaccurate. You have to lead about 5-6 seconds in other words, and it is very much a reaction based drop. But, even if you do hit the target, there's no guarantee you'll do damage or set a fire. This is especially true on battleships. Even a near miss on destroyers doesn't necessarily do damage or incapacitate anything. The long delay on the drop means that nimble cruisers and destroyers definitely can dodge the dive bombers, because the dive bombers can't change their path during the dive. I can't comment on AP dive bombers as I never managed to hit anything with them, lol.
  5. The attack aircraft (rocket bombers). These aircraft are what used to the fighter aircraft (Zeros, Wildcats, Corsairs, etc), except now they have rockets and don't engage enemy aircraft. The rockets are definitely the easiest to use because you only have to lead once. They're fairly accurate if you get close in, but their damage is minimal and the fire chance doesn't seem very high. Ultimately, they're the most fun to use by far. However, I don't think they'll be very useful. They do very little to battleships, they're ok on cruisers, and only really do fair bits of damage to destroyers. However, destroyers should be able to dodge these planes fairly easily. 

Conclusion:

The aircraft carrier now seems to be a scavenger and hunter of opportunity. It has to very carefully pick its target if it has any hope of doing consistent damage or sinking the target. Basically, the strike has to be a surprise, and have very careful timing. AA is so powerful now that attacking a group of ships is a poor decision, and defensive fire annihilates a squadron in less than 10 seconds.  Carriers are largely immune to each other's strike aircraft, because of the absurd AA they have, which pretty much denies carrier sniping. The option for a heal on your aircraft carrier further reduces the threat of carrier sniping. The omnipresence of carriers is also now gone, as you cannot have squadrons all over the map at once. Their ability to spot has also been limited, as hovering your planes near an enemy ship means they will get shot down. 

TL;DR:

Carrier sniping is gone. Alpha strikes are gone. DOT damage is hard to pull off b/c AA is murderous. Ships near each other ruin planes. DFAA almost instantly shoots down a squadron. Well placed drops take skill. CVs have much less influence. One team having a better carrier than the other doesn't matter much anymore. CVs have to plan their approaches and drops very carefully. Even the Shimakaze can knock down Midway planes fairly easily. Carrier drops are easy for surface ships to nullify or dodge.

Alright that about sums up my experience. Hope y'all have found this reading to be informative. 

- bacononaboat

  • Cool 27
  • Bad 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Banned
292 posts
10 minutes ago, bacononaboat said:

Conclusion:

The aircraft carrier now seems to be a scavenger and hunter of opportunity. It has to very carefully pick its target if it has any hope of doing consistent damage or sinking the target. Basically, the strike has to be a surprise, and have very careful timing. AA is so powerful now that attacking a group of ships is a poor decision, and defensive fire annihilates a squadron in less than 10 seconds.  Carriers are largely immune to each other's strike aircraft, because of the absurd AA they have, which pretty much denies carrier sniping. The option for a heal on your aircraft carrier further reduces the threat of carrier sniping. The omnipresence of carriers is also now gone, as you cannot have squadrons all over the map at once. Their ability to spot has also been limited, as hovering your planes near an enemy ship means they will get shot down. 

TL;DR:

Carrier sniping is gone. Alpha strikes are gone. DOT damage is hard to pull off b/c AA is murderous. Ships near each other ruin planes. DFAA almost instantly shoots down a squadron. Well placed drops take skill. CVs have much less influence. One team having a better carrier than the other doesn't matter much anymore. CVs have to plan their approaches and drops very carefully. Even the Shimakaze can knock down Midway planes fairly easily. Carrier drops are easy for surface ships to nullify or dodge.

Alright that about sums up my experience. Hope y'all have found this reading to be informative. 

- bacononaboat

Seems very very promising so far. Also reading this I realized the carrier rework is probably directly what was changed WG's thinking/equation in regards to subs.

Edited by TheLastReaper
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,925 posts
1,365 battles

So the counter to planes is huddle together, cuz I watched flamus bit on tge cvs, and hilarious joke would describe the AA.  AA basically cant actually save u or prevent a drop.  It looks cool but doesnt do much.  In his Ryujo bit he lost like 4 planes.  His Ranger bit he lost more...  As for the CD on planes, yeah its basically no cooldown...

CVs look like fire/he spam lvls of op now...you spend all your time dodging planes and getting lit on fire even more...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
185
[D33P6]
Members
496 posts
6,674 battles
5 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

So the counter to planes is huddle together, cuz I watched flamus bit on tge cvs, and hilarious joke would describe the AA.  AA basically cant actually save u or prevent a drop.  It looks cool but doesnt do much.  In his Ryujo bit he lost like 4 planes.  His Ranger bit he lost more...  As for the CD on planes, yeah its basically no cooldown...

CVs look like fire/he spam lvls of op now...you spend all your time dodging planes and getting lit on fire even more...

Well what I would say about this is that it depends on the level of skill of the CV player. I do believe that you can do much better than I did. Flamu is a very skilled video game player, particularly in this game, so I'm hardly surprised that he proved to be much more dangerous. However, the fact that the alpha strike is gone from the CVs arsenal makes me hopeful for the rework. Considering they're making a proper beta out of this, I expect a lot of fine tuning from Wargaming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
10,267 posts
4,603 battles

I agree with all of that except the CV sniping part. That is still going to be prevalent especially with 2 CVs per side if they're reaaaaaaally trying for that goal.

I also imagine you haven't ran across a wall-rider yet either.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
185
[D33P6]
Members
496 posts
6,674 battles
3 minutes ago, J30_Reinhardt said:

I agree with all of that except the CV sniping part. That is still going to be prevalent especially with 2 CVs per side if they're reaaaaaaally trying for that goal.

I also imagine you haven't ran across a wall-rider yet either.

Perhaps. Carrier AA is totally nuts at T10. I can see what you're talking about happening more often at low and mid tier but I believe it would take 2-3 squadron attacks (e.g. 4-6 strikes) to pull this off. You might not react to the first squadron, but you'd have the warning to the next carrier squadron. 

And no, I haven't run into a wall rider, but wall riding is pretty difficult now given that the planes are detected from 10 km 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
10,267 posts
4,603 battles
1 minute ago, bacononaboat said:

Perhaps. Carrier AA is totally nuts at T10. I can see what you're talking about happening more often at low and mid tier but I believe it would take 2-3 squadron attacks (e.g. 4-6 strikes) to pull this off. You might not react to the first squadron, but you'd have the warning to the next carrier squadron. 

And no, I haven't run into a wall rider, but wall riding is pretty difficult now given that the planes are detected from 10 km 

Yea the problem is when there's more than one CV dropping on you, regardless of plane type.

While the detection of planes is good and you would think would limit attacking people based off of that IMO it's the opposite. People are good enough to dodge, but the bots arent. Once they get forced or otherwise do so intentionally to max out their AA boost you'll notice that you can only attack them from one side...which happens to be the heavy AA side. I forecast a few cruiser drivers doing this which may separate them from the rest of the team where they're more needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
185
[D33P6]
Members
496 posts
6,674 battles
4 minutes ago, J30_Reinhardt said:

Yea the problem is when there's more than one CV dropping on you, regardless of plane type.

While the detection of planes is good and you would think would limit attacking people based off of that IMO it's the opposite. People are good enough to dodge, but the bots arent. Once they get forced or otherwise do so intentionally to max out their AA boost you'll notice that you can only attack them from one side...which happens to be the heavy AA side. I forecast a few cruiser drivers doing this which may separate them from the rest of the team where they're more needed.

The biggest challenge for the surface ships definitely will be deciding when to ignore planes or take them seriously. This will largely have to do with positioning. I cannot recommend AA build enough with this new carrier play style. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,305 posts
8,761 battles

Looking forward to dusting off my Saipan and Kaga actually.  Looks interesting enough to try anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
185
[D33P6]
Members
496 posts
6,674 battles
2 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

Looking forward to dusting off my Saipan and Kaga actually.  Looks interesting enough to try anyway.

I definitely see Saipan being just as OP as before. Kaga is gonna be weird though. Kaga's current gimmick is that it gets lots of lower tiered planes. All the CVs get tons of planes now, so part of that is gone. Having low tier planes at this point would just be annoying. But, it's still a carrier so....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
185
[D33P6]
Members
496 posts
6,674 battles

I would like to add that except for the visuals, this gameplay still felt very detached from what the surface ships were doing. It was very easy to lose track of the actual battle and not care what the surface ships were doing. So that needs help.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
325
[KNTI2]
Members
875 posts
5,595 battles
1 hour ago, bacononaboat said:

I definitely see Saipan being just as OP as before. Kaga is gonna be weird though. Kaga's current gimmick is that it gets lots of lower tiered planes. All the CVs get tons of planes now, so part of that is gone. Having low tier planes at this point would just be annoying. But, it's still a carrier so....

She could have faster rearm times or more (but lower HP) planes per attack run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,484 posts
9,672 battles

Thanks for giving us your impressions; not sure why you got downvoted(I gave you +1) but presumably these are CV mains who dislike the entire rework and are just venting.

Carriers definately needed this, as their dominance was overpowering at times, especially at T10 and T4 where you could potentially have 4 CV's against ships with very poor AA values.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
10,267 posts
4,603 battles
3 hours ago, bacononaboat said:

The biggest challenge for the surface ships definitely will be deciding when to ignore planes or take them seriously. This will largely have to do with positioning. I cannot recommend AA build enough with this new carrier play style. 

I agree, and hopefully this changes up the radar meta.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,261
[HINON]
Members
10,528 posts
7 hours ago, KnightFandragon said:

So the counter to planes is huddle together, cuz I watched flamus bit on tge cvs, and hilarious joke would describe the AA.  AA basically cant actually save u or prevent a drop.  It looks cool but doesnt do much.  In his Ryujo bit he lost like 4 planes.  His Ranger bit he lost more...  As for the CD on planes, yeah its basically no cooldown...

CVs look like fire/he spam lvls of op now...you spend all your time dodging planes and getting lit on fire even more...

You do realize they have hardly balanced AA and aircraft stats which is why it is in testing right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,925 posts
1,365 battles
44 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

You do realize they have hardly balanced AA and aircraft stats which is why it is in testing right?

I figured, but seems like they set the bar pretty low for a first test...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
695
[S0L0]
Alpha Tester
2,247 posts
3,037 battles

I only ventured into CVs at T6 last night.   Pretty steep potato filled learning curve for me.   i'm pretty curious to see how play changes as some players get more proficient. At no point last night did I feel proficient.    AA was impressive to look at and very very deadly to my planes until leveled up and then still more than daunting.  Even DDs had furious AA.    I'm not sure I was able to make any third drops on any ship type as AA would wipe out my entire squadrons.  Concerns about CVs being more powerful than before due to DOT, and AA on surface ships not being up to task - I can unequivocally say are not valid.  trying to attack 2-3 cruisers or BBs in a group is suicide.   It would appear that this may really change surface ship meta also and make escorting more productive, even with the ability to insta delete for higher tier CVs now gone.  A couple of cruisers together can deny CVs much larger areas of the map.    I'm going to reserve my opinions on most else until I really spend some more time with it.   Looks great for sure.   Really changes the game for all classes visually.   I didn't pay a lot of attention to FPS last night, but with all the flack i can't imagine it isn't  more more taxing on resources...I'll check that later.    

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
119
[P2W]
Members
191 posts
8,656 battles

From what I've watched (I am not one of the beta testers) it looks as though all of the planes in a squadron are taking damage during an attack run, even though only some of them are actually attacking. While this might somehow be necessary for balance reasons it seems wildly unrealistic - where do you find pilots that are willing to fly into a wall of flak just to hang out with their buds, but not actually make an attack until later?

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,522
Members
21,801 posts
5,717 battles
10 hours ago, KnightFandragon said:

So the counter to planes is huddle together, cuz I watched flamus bit on tge cvs, and hilarious joke would describe the AA.  AA basically cant actually save u or prevent a drop.  It looks cool but doesnt do much.  In his Ryujo bit he lost like 4 planes.  His Ranger bit he lost more...  As for the CD on planes, yeah its basically no cooldown...

CVs look like fire/he spam lvls of op now...you spend all your time dodging planes and getting lit on fire even more...

You may have watched Flamu's video, but the OP is relating first-hand experience, and everything he's saying is completely different than what you are saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,522
Members
21,801 posts
5,717 battles
9 hours ago, bacononaboat said:

Kaga is gonna be weird though. Kaga's current gimmick is that it gets lots of lower tiered planes. All the CVs get tons of planes now, so part of that is gone. Having low tier planes at this point would just be annoying. 

Could they maybe do larger squadrons and more planes attacking at once?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×