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RivertheRoyal

Secondary battleships and why you want one.

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Bought mass and got my first kraken with 3 close quarter combats and some long range sniping on a target angling away (bad dispersion can be good)

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I once tried an IFHE secondary built GK on the PTS.

My average secondary damage was around 50-60k with a high of 90k in one battle.

Bloody Nora, does that ship have impressive secondaries.

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5 hours ago, Seaneroo said:

That's interesting, considering WG has IFHE crossed out in the captain skills screen.

That just means they do not  recommend it for said ship. You can still take any skill you like.

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Good grief.

The misinformation.  The misconceptions!

Alright, listen up, greenhorns.  I'm here to bestow upon to glorious knowledge.  Not just any knowledge, either, but secondary battleship knowledge.  That is, objectively, the best kind.  It's just Science.  Capital S.

Throughout this thread, folks have extolled the fun of secondary builds and of IFHE.  Unfortunately, they have supported their claims mostly with placebic anecdotes.  But fear not, for there is genuine power in the School of Secondaries.  Unfortunately, there are few true believers.  Notable secondary ships, in ascending order, pound for pound, are Richelieu, Massachusetts, Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Gneisenau, and finally the raid boss himself-- Grosser Kurfurst.

Why just these?  Well, there's plenty of other ships that can run secondaries, but these are the ones for which such a build is quite possibly the best overall option.  Richelieu and Mass pack flamethrowers-- do not take IFHE.  Most of the secondaries of these ships will fail to pen same tier cruisers even with it, and it cripples your fire output.  Consider not even running manual secondaries-- seriously!-- because you are simply looking for fires and thus extra accuracy is often wasted.

Bismarck.  Your secondaries are split between 150s and 105s.  Alas IFHE is useless here as well.  German secondaries have 1/4 HE pen, but only on 128mm guns and up.  This means that your 150mm guns already pen battleship bows, and your 105s can't pen t8 cruiser bows even with IFHE (exterior RN cruisers, admittedly).  But manual secondaries is excellent, because your fire chance is bad and you're relying on that sweet, sweet DPM.

Gneisenau and GK.  Gneisenau on hull b trades all of its secondaries for 128s.  This means that they have 32mm pen base (you must exceed target armor) and thus IFHE means that all of a Gneisenau's secondaries can do full pen alpha damage through the bow of *literally any t9 ship in the game except FDG.*  Meanwhile, GK is 128s and 150s-- IFHE lets its entire secondaries complement pen 32mm armour and a full secondary build we'll give you over 400k DPM, raw, per side in secondaries alone-- you can literally melt other t10 BBs with a slight angle, abusing your absurd armour and simply murdering them with your secondary guns.

Hoo.

So to sum up-- stop taking IFHE unless you're a Gneisenau or GK.  It literally just hurts you by not tangibly affecting your pen while nerfing your fires.  If you want to truly tear things to pieces with nothing but secondary guns, there is zero substitute for a GK.  

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11 hours ago, dmckay said:

Schar...nuff said.  Monster with secondary build.  No DD nor Cruiser should live in that hail of stuff....if ya do it right. 

I know what you mean, I have a secondary build on Gneisenau, 22 barrels of 128mm goodness, with 4 sec. reload. No IFHE yet, that'll come at 18 pts.

It's my fave ship for Ops.

Edited by Skpstr

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9 hours ago, KnightFandragon said:

Honestly, the effectiveness of secondaries is not at face value.  Its the 23k dmg done in addition to the other 170k, that otherwise wouldnt have been done.  Its the comfort and confidence it instills in the BB capt, that is now in the mix, deterring and scaring DDs n CAs, vs the BB camping in the back in fear of Torp runs and long, slow mobility and reload times.  Its the extra CA or DD sunk or on the defense...

Yeah, secondary builds are very effective.  Sure, they take a little more planning then pacing the red line, but they are very effective...

And btw, 23k from USN secondaries?  Thats a far cry from the usual 1500 or less I see when I do a secondary run.  Id love a solid secondary buff across the board, for all nations.  German national flavor be damned.

Secondary speced ships also have considerably better map impact than non-secondary ones.

The Mass basically has a no-ship zone of 11km around it. If you are in a non-X match this results in huge map control/influence.

Most people, even if secondaries are doing zero damage, really react to the constant plinking of secondary hits and change their playstyle accordingly.

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8 minutes ago, Daemonheld said:

Good grief.

The misinformation.  The misconceptions!

Alright, listen up, greenhorns.  I'm here to bestow upon to glorious knowledge.  Not just any knowledge, either, but secondary battleship knowledge.  That is, objectively, the best kind.  It's just Science.  Capital S.

Throughout this thread, folks have extolled the fun of secondary builds and of IFHE.  Unfortunately, they have supported their claims mostly with placebic anecdotes.  But fear not, for there is genuine power in the School of Secondaries.  Unfortunately, there are few true believers.  Notable secondary ships, in ascending order, pound for pound, are Richelieu, Massachusetts, Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Gneisenau, and finally the raid boss himself-- Grosser Kurfurst.

Why just these?  Well, there's plenty of other ships that can run secondaries, but these are the ones for which such a build is quite possibly the best overall option.  Richelieu and Mass pack flamethrowers-- do not take IFHE.  Most of the secondaries of these ships will fail to pen same tier cruisers even with it, and it cripples your fire output.  Consider not even running manual secondaries-- seriously!-- because you are simply looking for fires and thus extra accuracy is often wasted.

Bismarck.  Your secondaries are split between 150s and 105s.  Alas IFHE is useless here as well.  German secondaries have 1/4 HE pen, but only on 128mm guns and up.  This means that your 150mm guns already pen battleship bows, and your 105s can't pen t8 cruiser bows even with IFHE (exterior RN cruisers, admittedly).  But manual secondaries is excellent, because your fire chance is bad and you're relying on that sweet, sweet DPM.

Gneisenau and GK.  Gneisenau on hull b trades all of its secondaries for 128s.  This means that they have 32mm pen base (you must exceed target armor) and thus IFHE means that all of a Gneisenau's secondaries can do full pen alpha damage through the bow of *literally any t9 ship in the game except FDG.*  Meanwhile, GK is 128s and 150s-- IFHE lets its entire secondaries complement pen 32mm armour and a full secondary build we'll give you over 400k DPM, raw, per side in secondaries alone-- you can literally melt other t10 BBs with a slight angle, abusing your absurd armour and simply murdering them with your secondary guns.

Hoo.

So to sum up-- stop taking IFHE unless you're a Gneisenau or GK.  It literally just hurts you by not tangibly affecting your pen while nerfing your fires.  If you want to truly tear things to pieces with nothing but secondary guns, there is zero substitute for a GK.  

Are you trying to be ironic? By posting a massive wall of "corrective" misinformation?

The value of secondaries in the Massachusetts isn't in setting fires; it's the alpha damage you can do to cruisers/destroyers with IFHE (or even battleships). The reason you run IFHE is to... you know, do more damage.

Anyways, what do I know, only 79% WR with 86k average damage (and 1.5 kills/game) in my Massachusetts.

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Just now, Daemonheld said:

Richelieu

Richelieu is ok, but it falls short of Gascogne in my extensive experiments, as the 152mm on Richelieu have some bad angles directly to the side and there are fewer 100mm than on Gascogne.

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Just now, enderland07 said:

The value of secondaries in the Massachusetts isn't in setting fires; it's the alpha damage you can do to cruisers/destroyers with IFHE (or even battleships). The reason you run IFHE is to... you know, do more damage.

 

my experience differs, IFHE may give a marginal increase in direct damage from the 127mm, but that is off-set by a notable reduction in fires and the ability to keep damage control of you opponent on cool down while fires rage.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

That's because WG had nerfed the ROF and range on secondary guns for North Carolina upwards. If they had used the historical data for the duel of Washington Vs Kirishima in the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, a CA/DD would die within 12km from the secondaries alone.

That’s a game balance question. Real battleships were floating engines of destruction. They were more accurate than any other ship, had longer range, tremendous destructive potential, vastly better survivability, their secondaries were like a small cruiser welded to each side of the ship, and their tall masts gave them the best non plane-assisted view of the battle space. It is hard to imagine, say, a lone Benson taking on the actual Bismarck or Amagi as anything other than a sacrifice. The counters to a BB were (1) another BB, (2) fleet coordination, and (3) airplanes. 

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23 minutes ago, Eugenie_101 said:

That’s a game balance question. Real battleships were floating engines of destruction. They were more accurate than any other ship, had longer range, tremendous destructive potential, vastly better survivability, their secondaries were like a small cruiser welded to each side of the ship, and their tall masts gave them the best non plane-assisted view of the battle space. It is hard to imagine, say, a lone Benson taking on the actual Bismarck or Amagi as anything other than a sacrifice. The counters to a BB were (1) another BB, (2) fleet coordination, and (3) airplanes. 

To bad cruisers dont get Repair Party as well...would be a real nice addition to them all.

Cruisers could use a survivability buff.

Give it to them as an option in place of radar, indirect radar nerf.

Edited by KnightFandragon

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1 minute ago, KnightFandragon said:

To bad cruisers dont get Repair Party as well...would be a real nice addition to them all.

Cruisers could use a survivability buff.

Give it to them as an option in place of radar, indirect radar nerf.

That means the games go longer. That is not in WG's economic interest. They'd set the game limit to 15 minutes if they think they can get away with it.

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10 hours ago, KnightFandragon said:

Honestly, the effectiveness of secondaries is not at face value.  Its the 23k dmg done in addition to the other 170k, that otherwise wouldnt have been done.  Its the comfort and confidence it instills in the BB capt, that is now in the mix, deterring and scaring DDs n CAs, vs the BB camping in the back in fear of Torp runs and long, slow mobility and reload times.  Its the extra CA or DD sunk or on the defense...

Yeah, secondary builds are very effective.  Sure, they take a little more planning then pacing the red line, but they are very effective...

And btw, 23k from USN secondaries?  Thats a far cry from the usual 1500 or less I see when I do a secondary run.  Id love a solid secondary buff across the board, for all nations.  German national flavor be damned.

Agreed a global buff of 20% to range and -20% to dispersion on secondaries would be welcomed.

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7 minutes ago, landedkiller said:

Agreed a global buff of 20% to range and -20% to dispersion on secondaries would be welcomed.

It would not be welcomed by the DD community. 

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5 minutes ago, landedkiller said:

-20% to dispersion on secondaries would be welcomed.

 would that not push some secondary's to -100% dispersion at max range.

 

"-20% to dispersion on secondary's would be welcomed." = -20%

Secondary Battery Modification 2 = -20%

Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament = -60% (at and above tier VII)

total = -100% dispersion at max range.

 

else -85% dispersion at max range if you took Aiming Systems Modification 1 or Artillery Plotting Room Modification 1 in place of Secondary Battery Modification 2

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1 minute ago, b101uk said:

 would that not push some secondary's to -100% dispersion at max range.

 

"-20% to dispersion on secondary's would be welcomed." = -20%

Secondary Battery Modification 2 = -20%

Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament = -60% (at and above tier VII)

total = -100% dispersion at max range.

 

else -85% dispersion at max range if you took Aiming Systems Modification 1 or Artillery Plotting Room Modification 1 in place of Secondary Battery Modification 2

It's a multiplier, so it'd be 

0.8*0.8*0.4 = 25% of the original dispersion.

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1 hour ago, enderland07 said:

Are you trying to be ironic? By posting a massive wall of "corrective" misinformation?

The value of secondaries in the Massachusetts isn't in setting fires; it's the alpha damage you can do to cruisers/destroyers with IFHE (or even battleships). The reason you run IFHE is to... you know, do more damage.

Yeah, the way I see it, is that while yes, IFHE on KM 128s lets you pen 32mm, on USN 127s, it lets you pen 25 and 27mm, which are also thresholds.

IOW, although the KM 128 pens more things to start with, IFHE lets both guns pen things they wouldn't otherwise.

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shot-18.09.28_16.54.21-0431.jpg

I know it isn't high tier competitive meta, but there is nothing like thinking you ship is on fire when the secondary's are going off.

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3 hours ago, yacskn said:

I once tried an IFHE secondary built GK on the PTS.

My average secondary damage was around 50-60k with a high of 90k in one battle.

Bloody Nora, does that ship have impressive secondaries.

I agree, I know full secondary IFHE build is not seen as optimal on GK but its so much fun. In ranked I was regularly getting 200K plus games, because of the closer quaters aspect. I had the game below recently in Random too, not massive damage by all accounts but just stunning secondary damage if you combine the secondary raw damage and the fires.

2018-09-30.png

2018-09-30 (1).png

2018-09-30 (2).png

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4 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Yeah, the way I see it, is that while yes, IFHE on KM 128s lets you pen 32mm, on USN 127s, it lets you pen 25 and 27mm, which are also thresholds.

IOW, although the KM 128 pens more things to start with, IFHE lets both guns pen things they wouldn't otherwise.

 

If you look in the armour viewer tab and cycle through all the ships in the game keeping an eye out for that 25 and 27mm threshold, you'll get a good idea for what IFHE brings to the table for the Massachusetts.
Suddenly, you can penetrate the hulls of all lower tiered battleships. The 127mm shells will do 540 damage for each hit. I've found Massachusetts to have about a 40% hit rate for secondaries, so let's assume 4 out of her 10 secondary shells hit. That's 2160 damage every 4 seconds, base, and only assuming that 4 shells hit. Against battleships, you're looking at something more like 6~7 shells hitting per salvo due to how accurate Massachusetts can get. So, it's more like 3200~3700 damage every 4 seconds.
I think everyone here can appreciate how terrifying that might be. In the 30 seconds that it takes to reload your main battery guns, those secondaries will have been constantly plinking away, shaving health away very, very quickly. 
Oh! And IFHE on guns below 139mm only removes 1% of your fire chance. On the 127's, this drops them from 5% to 4%. You can easily gain that 1% back through the fire flags, so don't be worrying about IFHE dropping the number of fires set.

 

But all this is against lower tiered battleships, and while Massachusetts is effective against them, she also depends on a good matchup to see lower tiers. 
No, where IFHE really comes in handy, is when you're going up against higher tier cruisers. They almost all have hull armour values at the 25~27mm threshold. Hulls you can't penetrate with secondaries without IFHE. With IFHE, however.....Well, take that 2160 damage every four seconds, and prop it up against the health pool of a cruiser. Imagine hitting more than 4 shells per salvo, and the resulting increases in damage being done. 

You honestly don't take IFHE on Massachusetts to do more damage to destroyers or battleships at your tier and higher.
You take IFHE to utterly break cruisers. (Lower tier battleship's are almost more of a bonus compared to this.)       

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Secondary battleships are one of the dumbest things in this game.  Secondaries were for AA and anti-torpedo boat/DD work.  The main batteries were there for a reason.  If a BB would have been better with many small guns that is what would have been built and the main guns would have been completely omitted.

As for gameplay with them, yes, so much fun letting the computer do all the shooting for you.  Bleh.

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5 minutes ago, RivertheRoyal said:

You honestly don't take IFHE on Massachusetts to do more damage to destroyers or battleships at your tier and higher.
You take IFHE to utterly break cruisers. (Lower tier battleship's are almost more of a bonus compared to this.)       

Yep. It's hilariously good against the Cleveland which is nearly all 25mm armor everywhere..

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I find them less useful the higher you go.  I wouldn't go past T8 for a secondary build myself.  Top tier Bis can bully caps, but bottom tier you have to wait for the HE spammers and torp boats to be sighted on the map or sunk, which means playing passive for the first half of the game, and we all know how people love passive BB play.  I tried a secondary GK and pushed a cap and was dead before a single ship was in secondary range, respec'd out of it as soon as it was on sale.

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1 hour ago, b101uk said:

 would that not push some secondary's to -100% dispersion at max range.

 

"-20% to dispersion on secondary's would be welcomed." = -20%

Secondary Battery Modification 2 = -20%

Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament = -60% (at and above tier VII)

total = -100% dispersion at max range.

 

else -85% dispersion at max range if you took Aiming Systems Modification 1 or Artillery Plotting Room M koodification 1 in place of Secondary Battery Modification 2

Yeah and UsN secondaries would still only reach about 28% hit rate.


Measured my AZ secondary volleys ladtnight after Raptor.  52 hits, 14.4k dmg(which surprised the hell out of me), in 362 shots, something 14% hit rate.  My cpt only has AFT n BFT, with dispersion mods.

My AL however, ran it agains a tg Amagi, something like 42 hits in 340 shots for a grand total of like 4k dmg. Similarly wonderful hit rate. Same cpt, but AL has AA mod.  Usual performance is about 1-2k dmg in about 40-50 hits out of around 400 shots.

Id love a nice USN secondary buff.  Id buy Mass, but then having AL would be pointless, as id literally never play her again. 

 

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