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embeddeddear97

Graf spee, worth it?

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1 hour ago, embeddeddear97 said:

I’m working on the german cruiser line and possibly the BB line after and I’ve been thinking about the Graf spee as a cheaper premium to get to help retrain the commanders. I’ve watched multiple videos on it for mixed results on if it’s worth it or not. So, is it worth it’s unique play style or should I look at something else to get to retrain my german commanders?

For a trainer for both lines she is definately ok.

For cruisers the Prinze Eugan is better and for Battleships the Tirpitz.

But if your only able to get 1 then she would do.

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This is how I view her: she is a somewhat upgunned German Tier 2 pre-dreadnought (11-inch A and Y turret triples instead of twins) with Tier 6 secondaries/AA, speed and gimmicks (hydro, fighter). She is effectively what a Tier 2 battlecruiser would be if such a thing had existed then.

She has to be positioned and fought accordingly.

Then there are the torpedoes, which unwary opponents sometimes forget exist. They can be used to save you, to deliver a surprise, or potentially to milk a flesh-wound award if you are mortally crippled and a one-shot proposition for a nearby enemy BB who is incautious.

She was irresistibly dirt cheap in this year's Steam sale, and at the absurdly low price I paid, she was stupidly, extraordinarily good value. 

I have since bought the Scharnhorst (when she was half price in the summer sales), and my recommendation as the owner of both is that if money is tight, you consider sitting on your money until Scharnhorst is once more cheap and then snap her up instead. No slur on the Graf, and she is a very interesting ship to fight, but on the whole I think the Scharn is the better ship if you can get her in a good deal rather than pay current list price for the Graf.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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   Spee is actually a good trainer for any of the German line in my opinion because she doesn't really suffer from sub optimal captain skills. Her main strengths are her HP pool and heal for the tier In a cruiser and her guns, no captain skills you take can diminish that really.

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Graf is a solid cruiser at T6.  Guns hit hard (when they hit), good torps and a heal.  She is a tricky cruiser to play though because she handles like a small battleship/battle cruiser.  With only two turrets (and slow ones at that) she's built more for taking on other cruisers/battleships than destroyers.  B-careful...

Prinz Eugen would be my choice for a German captain trainer though. Her camo provides extra captain XP and now that she comes with a heal she can stay in the battle much longer.  Good luck...

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As most of these replies will tell you, it depends on the player and how they drive the ship.  I'm a BB main, and I've gone back to the Graf Spee and I'm having a blast with the ship.  She has cruiser armor, so she needs concealment expert and priority target to help her survivability.  But still, it's a cruiser with BB guns, cruiser handling (though sluggish compared to some), repair party, the vaunted German hydro, very high HP for a T6 cruiser, and useful 8km torps with great angles.  Even her secondaries are good if your captain has AFT.  She's slow, so I'm always running sierra mike flags for the extra speed.  I have both the Graf and the Scharnhorst, and personally, I prefer the Graf over the Scharn.  I do better overall with the Graf over the Scharn with both damage dealt and exp received.  Graf Spee encourages a more cautious playstyle.

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1 hour ago, Skpstr said:

What I like about it is, it doesn't really have a solid identity, so it lends itself to different playstyles depending on the lineup.

And that's why she has never worked for me. I really struggle to think like a BB driver, and I openly dislike the play style.

She has taken too many steroid to be a cruiser and not enough to be a battleship lol.

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Sharnhorst is an excellent cl/a or bb trainer, and a ton of fun. Spee not as much fun to me

Then there is Tirpitz.............

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2 hours ago, embeddeddear97 said:

I’m working on the german cruiser line and possibly the BB line after and I’ve been thinking about the Graf spee as a cheaper premium to get to help retrain the commanders. I’ve watched multiple videos on it for mixed results on if it’s worth it or not. So, is it worth it’s unique play style or should I look at something else to get to retrain my german commanders?

Mouse pointed out one of the nice things about Spee a trainer is that it really doesn't care that much about captain skills. You can put a CV captain in her and she will still perform. It's a great ship and she has one of my best winrates in her but it has a bit of a learning curve. It fights more like a small battleship with very good BB dispersion and very weak (for a BB) armor than it does a cruiser. She has spectacular cruiser torpedoes. Those are one of her best weapons that players fail to use well. 

Spee's DPM is fairly low for a cruiser.  You need to stay alive with your heals to stack damage. The key is not to get deleted early and not overextend early. Don't be afraid to close, even with BBs, in mid to late game when your opponents are busy with other targets. You don't have accuracy or the number of guns to snipe. Also, Spee wants to get close to use the torpedoes in the late game. (Secondaries will contribute a bit too but don't count on them that much.) Your torpedo arcs are some of the widest in the game and you have longer ranged torps than any other German cruiser or BB. Late game when everyone is mixing it up in close you can ambush and demolish BBs. 

When facing BBs you really need to stay angled. When BBs fire at you turn in. They can penetrate you through the nose if they get a hit, but Spee's bow-on profile isn't that big. BBs on T6-T7 really can't get enough shell hits in any one volley to kill you outright. Stop shooting, fall off detection, and repair. T8 BBs are a huge problem though. 

 

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Those guns pack a punch.   I shoot AP at "real" BBs all the time and get lots of pens...and occasional cits.  Shred CAs with 'em...any tier.  And for a BB caliber punch....the reload is actually very fast.  Not a DPM monster...but good alpha damage.  Great torp arcs.  Nice hydro.  She's more of a CA killer than a DD hunter.

Granted, you only have two turrets...and six guns.  And you are just an armored cruiser.  But the T6 tiers is very nice place for it.  And the style is very unique...and fun. 

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I love the Spee, shes one of my best botes! While I rarely have truly great battles with her I also rarely have bad ones either. Shes an all around solid performing ship. I would say shes primarily a CA killer. Sure you can beat up BBs & DDs with her but she excels against other CAs. I play her mainly at mid range, say 8-12k which seems to be the sweet spot for her guns.

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Graf spee, worth it?

I dont think so.

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Worth it?

Yes because she us unique and good fun!

She is certainly not OP nor is she a great trainer (low XP due to being low tier and requires different captain skills than DE Cruisers). But good fun 

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Spee is certainly an odd duck: Not a cruiser, not a battleship nor battle cruiser. 

Big slow guns for a CA. She punishes broadside cruisers well.

Has trouble with DD's.

Her torpedoes have good reach and punch for T6.

Fun boat, but different. Takes some getting used to.

 

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6 hours ago, Levits said:

Graff Spee is certainly different and potentially powerful. But are there other options that will work better for you? Probably.

Its two turrets can hit hard against most any ship at tier 6 (even BB's will feel the hurt if you put shells where they need to be). They also fire rather quickly for the caliber that is being used, but they are also slower to reload than most other cruisers. This means that you had better be on good terms with RNGesus and make sure those shells hit. Because the enemy ship will manage to hit you between shots. Where as you have excellent alpha damage, your damage over time starts to lag behind other ships that can keep those shells flying.

Now, you do have torps with amazing angles and range that allows you to use them offensively while pushing towards a ship, or defensively as you attempt to retreat, but they are torps and more often than not can be avoided. They will not be the primary reason for your enemies destruction, but they certain can and will count towards your Kill/Death ratio.

The hull is tough. …well, tough enough to deal with some incoming BB fire and tough enough to shrug off some cruiser fire as well. But it is not impervious and you can and will sustain damage from every shot. The only good thing is that you can repair some of that damage.

Vs a cruiser, you have a "decent" advantage in open water; you are not however going to be KO'ing cruisers left and right; unless they are all showing you their broadsides. You also have to make sure those shells hit (again, preferably in the enemies sides). If you don't, most cruisers will simply overwhelm you with HE and kill you off with their superior fire rate. When the shells land, you will do damage. 1000 here on a bad shot, 3000 there on a good one, 5000 is not that uncommon with full salvos, the glorious citadel from time to time, but you've got to remember that the enemy will be doing that same amount of damage back; they'll just have to expend more time/shells to get it.

Vs a BB, you are at a disadvantage (well, all cruisers are so...) regarding survivability but with more potential to deal significant damage to that BB with the time you have left. Your guns can citadel a couple of the BB's at tier 6 (not common, but can be done more reliably than most other tier 6 cruisers) and they are at least more than accurate enough to hit the enemy ship reliably at max range (given the larger profile). Your HE isn't a slouch either so that works well enough for starting fires. The best tools and strategy for use against the enemy BB's would be to either stay as far away from them and kite (AND DODGE!!!-Piccolo) and/or get into some islands and setup an ambush using your torps. You've at least got two options. The least suggested option would be to yolo towards that enemy BB. You'll die for certain if it can get shots off, but again, those torps of yours can be used while you are nearly bow on; you've got a chance to take it out with you.

Vs a DD, your only option for spotting them is your plane (which may or may not be completely useless). Or hoping that the enemy smokes up, allowing you to push towards them with hydro active. Luckily at tier 6, there aren't too many stealth DD's that can torp you from the shadows, so you do at least have an advantage if/when they show themselves.

If you are focused or up tiered, your chances of victory are drastically reduced as you have neither the fire rate nor the durability to outmatch the enemy. And at tier 8... RNGesus help you.

Overall, Graff feels more like a support ship. OR, at the least, a ship that requires support to make up for it's slow rate of fire. Its other characteristics feel equal or above average to other tier 6 cruisers. Alone, it's a threat to just about any other Cruiser. If it has support from even one other cruiser or a BB, it can be a force to be reckoned with as it has more time to get its guns fired off before being killed. With just another cruiser at my side (or equal distraction), Graff can potentially tackle a BB and come out on top.

What he said, I will add to that I have been near dead. I have the 4  lowest cruiser Concealment to disengage. use my heals  with SI, India Delta Flag and print me a almost new ship,

I disagree with the DD only option. When spotted turn away pop your plane and wreck them because they will chase you. Another option with dd is to use your trops to cut off his angles and your guns will delete him. Because of the Stupid BB full pen on DDs.{This may chance with the DD shell change if it ever happens.

So Remember that you have a 5,516 heal{6619 with flag}with 4charges with SI.  that CA normally do not get till T9.

Also you do not have to spent capt points on IFHE

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I really enjoy the ship.  I've never really struggled to hit DDs with the ship.

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Graf Spee is a ship I have heard you will either love or deeply hate depending on if she works for you.

I personally love my Graf Spee and use her a lot, and when used well even tier 8 Battleships can be killed my Graf Spee if you get the chance to ambush them with your torpedoes. Graf Spee gets 8km torpedoes and amazing torpedo launch Angles that players so frequently either forget about or do not know about. Part of the reason for the surprise is you get 8km torpedoes when most German ships only get 6km torps unless they are a DD. The main guns are nice and reasonable turning Spee and range at 16km which is pretty good for a tier 6 cruiser since some tier 7s or even 8s don’t have that gun range. And as mentioned by others the AP shells do work well, and the firing angles are good enough that you can fire both turrets by angling without going entirely broadside to targets. Armor hold up pretty well against DDs and CAs, but sustained Battleship gun fire or a bad broadside hit will hurt you a lot, since while Graf Spee is a Heavy Cruiser, she still is a cruiser.

Of course I do use a captain that is meant for Graf Spee to keep so it blends the ships unique strengths and weaknesses. My Captain Training comes from Elite Captain XP that is earned from 19 point captains and can be used on any Captain. Graf Spee will soon be contributing to that ECXP pool along with some of my other ships. So while I may not cycle captains for training through my Premium ships, they do get trained from Captain XP earned on them all the same and feels more efficient to me.

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I did not like this ship for one glaring thing only:  Unreliable Guns.

 

This is the first "Cruiser" with abnormally large guns but it does not have "Cruiser Accuracy."  The dispersion is smaller than typical BB guns but like a BB, RNG really screws with Graf Spee.  To top it off, with only 6 max shells flying at any given time, lots of things can easily go wrong for each salvo.

 

If you look up Tier VI Cruiser stats, Graf Spee is on the upper end of Tier VI Cruiser Damage Average, but the other Cruisers there, like Budyonny, are right there in dealing with damage.  Despite Graf Spee having bigger, "Cruiser Killing Guns" than her peers this tier, she doesn't do better damage than her peers.  That should tell you the reliability of those guns on Graf.

 

Everything else is good to go, but the gunnery while strong, isn't something I can count on.  Lord help you if a RU DD decides to pick on you and isn't stupid enough to get in close ranges.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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The Graf Spee is a good boat but don't let her armor fool you, she cannot tank. Play her like a CA not like a BB. I have wrecked many of them with light cruisers and I can usually citidel Graf Spee at medium range with CL 6 inch AP.

The torps are a good addition, IIRC they have 8km range where the rest of the KM cruisers have 6km torps.

A fun boat if you play her like a heavy cruiser.

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10 hours ago, embeddeddear97 said:

I’m working on the german cruiser line and possibly the BB line after and I’ve been thinking about the Graf spee as a cheaper premium to get to help retrain the commanders. I’ve watched multiple videos on it for mixed results on if it’s worth it or not. So, is it worth it’s unique play style or should I look at something else to get to retrain my german commanders?

My son & I both have a Graf Spree. I see it as an OK ship but he loves his. You must remember it is a big cruiser, not a battleship. I think it is worth the cost.

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NOT sure what happen

Edited by kgh52

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computer glitch

 

Edited by kgh52

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I have both versions - the HSF and normal Spee.

 

That should say something. However, it's not for everyone. It takes some getting used to. 

The question you should probably be asking yourself here is, "Do I want to spend the time learning how to use a six gun ship with dispersion that can send shells into the next time zone without warning?"

She doesn't handle like any other cruiser in the KM tech tree, her firepower, while formidable, is on the light side. You duff a salvo and you've got a slightly lengthy wait ahead of you just like a BB. However, she's got some good fish to sling, and when her guns hit, they hit well.

So is it worth it?

Yes, and no. I have a lot of fun in Spee, but others can't stand her. She's not pricey at the moment, so I'd say risk it and try her out. Worst case scenario is you'll wind up with an attractive port princess to take out when you feel like being cheeky. Like what was mentioned in prior posts, you can put any skill set captain in her, and she's going to work. That alone should be a selling point. 

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Graf Spee is a gudbote when facing T5-7.

Since it's T6, you'll often get T8 MM and she doesn't really do well when uptiered. She's slow, you only have 6 guns and you don't have any armor or whatsoever. But when you face T5-6 or 7 she can do a really good job. Your 283mm guns are enough to punish broadside cruiser and your torps have good arc and range. Personnally I would recommend Spee for her unique playstyle and decent credit maker for T6. Also she's fun to play if you're not trolled by your guns. However for commander training I would suggest Prinz Eugen. Both ship will often get uptiered but because Eugen is T8, she will makes more money and XP.

 

 

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Think about playing Graf Spee a bit like playing like Royal Navy cruisers. If you're in a situation where all your targets are bow onto you, you'll have a miserable game. But if you manage to flank and create a cross fire, this ship will perform like mad. Her HE DPM is garbage, but her AP DPM has serious potential, especially when dealing with cruisers.

In fact, Spee is absolutely a cruiser killer as her guns can overmatch all cruiser plating up to tier 7. 

Also, I know there's a mixed opinions here, but I've also had some pretty impressive success rushing battleships. Spee has an amazing health pool by tier 6 cruiser standards, and she has a heal. So if you angle in sharply, battleships will pen her, but will rarely citadel. And unless very lucky, they won't often be able to kill you from full health in the time it takes for you to throw some torps from her very very impressive torp angles.

The trick to this ship is patience. She's opportunistic, not consistent. Your best matches are those where you can wait for those perfect opportunities to appear and you can go all murder hobo.

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