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CagedThunder

What tier to use singals and camos for credits?

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So I've heard to save flags, singals, camos for higher tiers because you gain more from each battle. I've also heard at least credits wise you actually don't earn the the most at tier 10 and you can actually lose credits. (premium ships not withstanding)

So what is the best tier to save flags and camo for? I guess Xp flags and camo at tier 9 is obvious but what about credits? What tier, ignoring premiums, should you use your credits oriented flags/camo/signals?

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I use them in n any ship that I want to accelerate the grind , permanent camo is nice to make credit at t10

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If you don't purchase permacamo for your ships (tier 6 and up), I would suggest saving the economic flags and good camos for when you reach that tier.  I never fly special flags or high end camos unless I am going into an operation.

A big mistake I made when I started was to have multiple ship lines all grinding at once.  You NEVER have enough money when you do this.  I would suggest picking 2 lines and working through them to the midtiers before you open up any more.

Best regards,

CS

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I got a few breadwinner ships in my arsenal that I put all my economic flags on. Hood and Nelson especially. Fun to play, earn decent credits. What more can you ask from a gameplay perspective? 

The XP flags are only on the ships I am grinding hardcore for. 

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46 minutes ago, CagedThunder said:

So what is the best tier to save flags and camo for? I guess Xp flags and camo at tier 9 is obvious but what about credits? What tier, ignoring premiums, should you use your credits oriented flags/camo/signals?

Right now anything you can use in Dynamo. Tomorrow what you can use in the weekly scenario. Div up and do Narai.

 

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The higher tier you play, the more XP and credit you'll earn but at the same time, the repair cost increase. If you can get your hands on Salem for instance, with flags, premium account and camo you can get some nice number . 

 

If you run no premium consummable and do a great game, you can actually earn credit, even without premium account.  There is 2 way of using your credit flags :

-You can use it to reduce repair cost by increasing credit earned in the battle.

-You can use it to boost your credit income by playing some mid tier premium ship and doing great game.

 

 

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Surprisingly I only have 4 credit signals left but 314 commander xp flags (actually semi useful SC) but I use credit flags with premium ships since they earn more and have a reduced service cost combined with the ranked flag. If I’m with a div grinding ships I’ll put the special flags on with some better camos

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As high tier a ship that you do well in and enjoy. Bonus if it is a premium ship. T9s and T10s with permanent camo work great also.  I loaded my 8 best flags on my Hindenburg and am making ridiculous XP and credits in it without using my best credits flags. I am even getting silly amounts of FXP without my best FXP flags. 

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10 hours ago, CagedThunder said:

So what is the best tier to save flags and camo for? I guess Xp flags and camo at tier 9 is obvious but what about credits? What tier, ignoring premiums, should you use your credits oriented flags/camo/signals?

Depends on how well you play, and how limited your access is to credit bonus items.

I only use earned items, and play a bit above average. I use credit bonus for T8+, and service cost reduction for T9+.

Having said that, I also use bonus credit items on Fiji, because I seem to play it well enough to consistently earn good credits with it, so it's a ship I use for grinding credits.

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Use them in the highest-earning ships you have, starting at T8 or so. Up until then, you can get by with just standard credit earnings on a non-premium account. Beyond that point, you will start to fall far behind the amount you need to buy the next ship (or even lose credits sometimes) unless you pick up either a premium account, a premium ship, or start to use credit flags.

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8 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

The higher tier you play, the more XP and credit you'll earn but at the same time, the repair cost increase. If you can get your hands on Salem for instance, with flags, premium account and camo you can get some nice number . 

 

If you run no premium consummable and do a great game, you can actually earn credit, even without premium account.  There is 2 way of using your credit flags :

-You can use it to reduce repair cost by increasing credit earned in the battle.

-You can use it to boost your credit income by playing some mid tier premium ship and doing great game.

 

 

I use Premium Consumables on Harugumo and Shimakaze, and still able to make profit, without need of Premium Account. Shimakaze does not have the Perma-Camo, while Harugumo does.


Anyway, as per the OP's inquiry, it ultimately depends on where it is you are going to play the most. If you're only going to do the occasional tier 9 and 10 battle, then using signals/camo that boosts economics won't do you much good. You'll be better off using all those economic boosters on a tier 7 (my opinion), It doesn't take much to make enough credits to pay for a tier 10 game. 4 games if you don't have the -50% service cost reduction from the permanent camo, 2 games if you do use that tier 10 prem-camo. Of course, that's average game play, not unicum, or poor play.

If you have tier 8 or 9 premium ships, those are the best candidates for credit boosting signals.

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9 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

If you're only going to do the occasional tier 9 and 10 battle, then using signals/camo that boosts economics won't do you much good. You'll be better off using all those economic boosters on a tier 7

All credit boosts apply to the raw amount earned, before the match fees are deducted. Thus mathematically, a flag usage always converts into a % of your gross credit earnings. If your goal is to get the most value out of your flags, you should always use it on the ship that gets the highest gross earnings, period.

Example:

Spoiler

 

T7 no flag earns 100k, pays 42k in fees. Net earnings 58k.
T7 with flag, 100k * 1.2 = 120k, still pays 42k in fees. Net earnings 78k.
Flag was worth 20k extra credits.

T9 no flag earns 178k, pays 120k in fees. Net earnings 58k.
T9 with flag, 178k * 1.2 = 213.6k, still pays 120k in fees. Net earnings 93.6k.
Flag was worth 36.6k extra credits.

 

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From Tier 6 and up 

using premium time and either doubloons cammo or a good economic paint job

add signals to taste.

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14 hours ago, CagedThunder said:

So I've heard to save flags, singals, camos for higher tiers because you gain more from each battle. I've also heard at least credits wise you actually don't earn the the most at tier 10 and you can actually lose credits. (premium ships not withstanding)

So what is the best tier to save flags and camo for? I guess Xp flags and camo at tier 9 is obvious but what about credits? What tier, ignoring premiums, should you use your credits oriented flags/camo/signals?

This will be long, sorry.

 

You are at account level 4 and just started getting containers. You can earn signal flags in containers as you collect them every day.  You won't be able to mount signals until account level 10. Account level 12 is when you start getting access to Missions and Challenges. The Daily Chains that you can complete every day (see the monthly briefing) can give you more signals. So you can earn a lot more signals as you go up the account levels.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Account_Level

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/deals/october-missions-2018/

 

One thing on account level, you are in protected matchmaking through account level 10 as long as you are in T1-T4 ships. In protected MM, you will be matched up with other new players as often as possible. If you play T5+ and/or once you are account level 11, you are in MM with everyone else. So expect there to be a change in game play when you hit account level 11 or T5+ play. There is matchmaking to consider as well, so see more below.

 

I would suggest to use signals on what ever ship(s) you feel comfortable in using that you do well for you. When you are low tier, that might mean low tier ships in PvP. When you get mid tier, that might mean only mid tier PvP and Operations. When you get high tier, you might only want to do high tier ships. Whatever works for you, go with it. I would not suggest using signals, premium consumables or special one-use camos in co-op as the games are fast and your payouts are cut roughly 50% as co-op is easier than PvP. 

 

Here is what I do as a co-op main. When I play T6+ PvP, I will use signals/premium consumables. When I play some T8+ co-ops, I will use signals only as I have a lot of them right now. I use signals/premium consumables in Operations. I usually only use signals in co-op for the days when the first win bonus is large. I do have perma-camo on most of my T6+ ships, so that really helps with credits, especially in co-op. I also run premium time, which gives a +50% boost to XP and credits. You don't have to spend money on the game, but it can make the grind faster with premium time, economic signals, perma-camo and/or premium ships.

 

You can play the game without spending money on it. You will end up playing mid tiers to earn credits to pay for the high tier play. You can earn premium time in game or in containers, just not a lot at a time. You can earn perma-camo in game in events. You can earn premium ships in game in events.  I would definitely play the game without spending cash on it for a while to make sure you like the game before spending money on it. Unless you are loaded or something and don't care. I would rate the items you can buy in game this way from best value to worst value; premium ships, premium time, perma-camo for ships you plan to keep, signals in the shop. Before buying a premium ship, do check out LittleWhiteMouse's (LWM) guides on premium ships and watch/read some other reviews before spending cash. LWM is the gold standard for reviews.

 

Do check out Hangglides' articles on WoWs enjoyment as there is a lot of good info there for new players. Watch Youtube videos as there are some great ones.

 

 

I would recommend playing co-op to see how new tactics work that you are trying out. To check out a new ship you just got, purchased or earned. Play co-op to take a break when PvP gets too stressful. Remember that you can use the same tactics in co-op as PvP, like angling, kiting, leading targets at an angle, etc. The big differences between co-op and PvP are that players are more unpredictable, have better tactics and work together better than the bots. You can get away with things in co-op, like being aggressive, lazy in your angling and/or over-extending that will get you sunk ASAP in PvP. As long as you can adjust your play for the mode you are in, switching back and forth between the two is not a problem.

 

Match making changes as you go up the tiers.

So T1, you only play other T1 ships in co-op and PvP.

T2 you can see T2 and T3 ships.

T3 you can see T2-T4 ships.

T4 you can see T3-T5 ships.

At T5, things change. You can see T4-T7 ships, so you can see ships 2 tiers above yours. +2/-2 MM.

At T6 you see T5-T8 ships.

At T7 you see T5-T9 ships.

At T8 you see T6-T10 ships.

At T9 you see T7-T10 ships.

And at T10 you see T8-T10 ships.

 

So when you start seeing T7 ships in a T5 ship, it is a big change. A lot of people have problems with +2/-2 MM. I would recommend playing your first T5(s) in co-op to get used to being T5 when you see T7 ships. Once you are comfortable being down two tiers vs bots, then go back to PvP and learn how to be bottom tier vs people. It will be different. I feel having success at T5 vs T7 bots, really shows that you can contribute to a match, so being T5 vs T7 people is not so scary. You have to play more carefully, but you can do well when bottom tiered in PvP.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to put out some things for you as a new player. Don't worry if not all of it works for you at once. This is a complicated game and you will be learning things for a while yet. I think it is a great game for all those complexities and I learn and relearn new stuff all the time. Good Luck and Fair Seas. :Smile_honoring:

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3 hours ago, Edgecase said:

All credit boosts apply to the raw amount earned, before the match fees are deducted. Thus mathematically, a flag usage always converts into a % of your gross credit earnings. If your goal is to get the most value out of your flags, you should always use it on the ship that gets the highest gross earnings, period.

Example:

  Hide contents

 

T7 no flag earns 100k, pays 42k in fees. Net earnings 58k.
T7 with flag, 100k * 1.2 = 120k, still pays 42k in fees. Net earnings 78k.
Flag was worth 20k extra credits.

T9 no flag earns 178k, pays 120k in fees. Net earnings 58k.
T9 with flag, 178k * 1.2 = 213.6k, still pays 120k in fees. Net earnings 93.6k.
Flag was worth 36.6k extra credits.

 

You also have to calculate the cost of ammo. Which drastically decreases your net earnings. Ammo + Base-Service-Cost can easily have you lose money, even with the signal, if you don't have premium or the perma-camo. There is also no guarantee that you'll break even, even with the signal mounted. Where in tier 7, it is far easier to make bank, because of the lower service cost, and lower ammunition costs. Tier 5, it is near 100% guarantee, unless you get deleted very early in the match without dealing damage.

Heck there was a game mentioned on this forum, about a player in a CV, who got penalized for inactivity, despite being active, all because the player did nothing but spot. 0 Experience, 0 credits... that was in a tier 6, in a tier 8 match, in a battle that lasted only 7 minutes 2 seconds. So if a battle ends too quickly, you're practically guaranteed to lose credits when playing the higher tiers.

Which is why I said tier 7 is the best choice, for occasional tier 9/10 play, because the credits earned there, practically pays for those tiers. You also missed the part where I said "occasional tier 9/10 play," as in "not as often."

He is also still a new player, so there is already no guarantee that when he gets to tier 9, that he'll be able to make bank in that tier 9 ship. 100k credits in a tier 9, add the signal boost, is a net gain of 0 credits. Which is more or less what happened to me, in my first few tier 9 battles. Tier 10, because I immediately bought Harugumo's perma-camo, I was making bank from the get-go. 100k game, plus 20k from signal, gives me 30k to cover ammo cost in my tier 10. 100k game no perma-camo, with signal, net loss of 60k, before ammo is deducted.


But I also mentioned tier 8 and tier 9 premium ship, because of reduced service cost (before camo bonus is applied), and slightly boosted credit earnings (before any other boosts are applied). Those are the two tiers, of premium ships, that can easily print credits. I was using Harekaze, to pay for my tier 9 games in Yugumo (being my first tier 9 ship, because Kita and Haru weren't released at that point). Even now, I still have a higher net-gain in a tier 7 with signal, than I do in Yugumo with signal. Which is why it is my opinion, that tier 7 is a good choice, to utilize credit boosting signals and camo.

If I can get the perma camo for both yugumo and Kitakaze, I would play them more often, because then I would most certainly have a higher net-gain, than I would in any tier 7 ship.

HECK I have higher net gains in Helena (my newest tier 7) despite being garbage when it comes to cruiser play, than I do in Kita and yugu.

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45 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

... long post ...

Which is why I said tier 7 is the best choice, for occasional tier 9/10 play, because the credits earned there, practically pays for those tiers. You also missed the part where I said "occasional tier 9/10 play," as in "not as often."

...

The question in the OP is when to use flags, not what tiers to play. Given that you're going to play X, Y, and Z ships, you always get the most credits by putting the flag on the ship that grosses the most. Not highest tier. Not highest net earnings before bonuses. Highest gross earnings. Because that's what gets multiplied. You want +20% of the biggest number.

You show me two games where you'd come out with better total credits with the flag in the lower-grossing one than the higher-grossing one, and I'll show you a universe where the laws of basic algebra have collapsed into a black hole.

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1 hour ago, Edgecase said:

The question in the OP is when to use flags, not what tiers to play. Given that you're going to play X, Y, and Z ships, you always get the most credits by putting the flag on the ship that grosses the most. Not highest tier. Not highest net earnings before bonuses. Highest gross earnings. Because that's what gets multiplied. You want +20% of the biggest number.

You show me two games where you'd come out with better total credits with the flag in the lower-grossing one than the higher-grossing one, and I'll show you a universe where the laws of basic algebra have collapsed into a black hole.

I know the multiplier is applied before the service cost is taken out. But if you're losing credits despite the signal being mounted, you're pretty much wasting those signals. What's the point in mounting them, if you're still going to lose credits? Yeah, you lose less credits, but you still lose credits. I would rather use them, and have a greater net gain, than use them and have a lower net loss.

Remember: 100k game in a tier 9, with a 20k bonus from signal, is still a net loss ( because you have to calculate ammo consumption). Where a 100k game with 20k bonus, in a tier 7, even after ammo consumption, is a net gain.

Unless you're aiming to complete a specific "earn x credits" there is very little incentive to use the signal, on a ship you're still likely to lose credits playing. You need credits to upgrade ships, and purchase the next ship in the line. So you want to use the signal, on a ship, in which you can increase your net gain, not reduce your net loss. It all depends on exactly what it is you're wishing to achieve.

Reducing net loss, still means you have to take the time to gain that money back, to make sure you can purchase the next upgrade, or the next ship.

Gross earning, is important for mission completions, while net gain is important for continued tech-tree grinding. Him being a new player, would be more focused on tech-tree grinding, rather than mission completions. So focusing on increasing net gain, rather than gross earning, is more important. In a tier 9, increasing gross earning, does not correlate to an increase in net gain, this is still true for tier 10, so until his focus shifts to completing certain missions, there is no incentive for him to use those signals on a tier 9 ship.

EDIT: Of course, everything does change with perma-camo, and/or premium account. So the "no incentive to use those signals on a tier 9 ship" only applies when the camo is not used, and/or premium account isn't there.

Edited by Counter_Gambit

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1 hour ago, Counter_Gambit said:

But if you're losing credits despite the signal being mounted, you're pretty much wasting those signals. What's the point in mounting them, if you're still going to lose credits? Yeah, you lose less credits, but you still lose credits. I would rather use them, and have a greater net gain, than use them and have a lower net loss.

This is 100% psychology and -100% math. If you lost credits with the flag, you would have lost even more credits without it. The amount of difference doesn't stop mattering just because it passes some magical point where the net flips from negative to positive. Losing 50k less is identical to gaining 50k more. This is basic arithmetic. So if you could lose 70k less or gain 20k more... you'd be a fool for taking the latter.

 

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4 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

@Counter_Gambit if I offer you $500k or $1,000,000 which would you rather have?

 

The one that provides the greater net gain. So it would depend on what the taxes, are for each, because they could very easily be in different tax brackets. Because if I have to pay 90% taxes for the $1,000,000, but only 50% for the $500k, then I would choose the $500K hands down, because that is $250K, as opposed to $100K.

So I am going to need more information, before I make my final decision. What percentage of that has to be paid for in taxes? What other expenses must be paid, along side taxes, before I can get that money?

Why am I asking these questions? "What is the service cost of the ship?" "What is the total ammunition cost, of all ammunition used during battle?" Yeah, analogies are awesome, aren't they?

So again: I need more information.

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53 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

This is 100% psychology and -100% math. If you lost credits with the flag, you would have lost even more credits without it. The amount of difference doesn't stop mattering just because it passes some magical point where the net flips from negative to positive. Losing 50k less is identical to gaining 50k more. This is basic arithmetic. So if you could lose 70k less or gain 20k more... you'd be a fool for taking the latter.

 

Alright, 90,000 base credits, 20% bonus credits, for 18,000 extra credits, for 108,000 credits. If we only factor the service cost (because ammunition resupply is too variable to calculate properly), and that was a tier 9 battle, you lost 12,000 credits, as opposed to 30,000 credits, if you didn't have that boost.

if you start with 1,200,000 credits and played only tier 9, and consistently lose 12,000 credits every battle, you can play 101 battles before you can no longer play that ship (the 100th puts you at exactly 0, the 101st will not auto service your ship).

NOW, let's reset and put ourselves back to 1,200,000 credits, but instead have only 40,000 base credits, with 8000 credit bonus from the 20% signal, and this comes from a tier 7 ship instead.

After the first battle I have 1,206,000 credits, after the second 1,212,000 credits, etc.

I can play tier 7 indefinitely, with no fear of ever not being able to play the ship. Sure the credit bonus is far smaller, but I can play unlimited games at tier 7, where I can only play 101 games at tier 9. Making tier 7 play, the better deal.

Edited by Counter_Gambit

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17 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

Making tier 7 play, the better deal.

Too bad that wasn't the question the OP asked.

21 hours ago, CagedThunder said:

What tier, ignoring premiums, should you use your credits oriented flags/camo/signals?

"When should I use my flags" is not "What tier should I play".

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4 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

Too bad that wasn't the question the OP asked.

"When should I use my flags" is not "What tier should I play".

Which I did answer. Go read my first post again and you'll find this lovely little gem "it ultimately depends on where it is you are going to play the most." You use those signals, WHEN you find the ship, or tier you are going to play the most of. OR, it can be interpreted as "the moment you can," if what he is going to do the most of, is grinding the line to tier 10; then the moment he can use them, is the moment when he should use them.

I then went into the spiel about which tiers I think those are better used on, because tier 8-10 ships do not guarantee a net gain, which net gain is vital for gaining credits for the purchase of tier 10 ships. If he loses credits, even using those signals, he is putting himself further away from the eventual tier 10 purchase. My spiel about tiers to use them on, was supplemental to my response.

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35 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

you'll find this lovely little gem "it ultimately depends on where it is you are going to play the most." You use those signals, WHEN you find the ship, or tier you are going to play the most of.

32 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

the moment he can use them, is the moment when he should use them

I cannot be any more clear that this is mathematically incorrect advice. It does not matter what you play most. Flags are not permacamo. You should not use them "the moment" you can, if your gross earnings are going to be low because it's a stock ship, you're not used to it, it's low tier, whatever. Use them when you'll gross the most credits in a game. That's literally it.

 

11 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

I then went into the spiel about which tiers I think those are better used on, because tier 8-10 ships do not guarantee a net gain, which net gain is vital for gaining credits for the purchase of tier 10 ships.

You do need a net gain to get the next tier of ships. That, however, has nothing to do with flag usage. I have explained why three different ways already. Further, since you cannot get to Tier 10 ships without playing Tier 9 ships, the OP will necessarily play a bunch of T9 games. So saying not to play T8-T10 is also pointless.

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Just now, Edgecase said:

I cannot be any more clear that this is mathematically incorrect advice. It does not matter what you play most. Flags are not permacamo. You should not use them "the moment" you can, if your gross earnings are going to be low because it's a stock ship, you're not used to it, it's low tier, whatever. Use them when you'll gross the most credits in a game. That's literally it.

 

You do need a net gain to get the next tier of ships. That, however, has nothing to do with flag usage. I have explained why three different ways already. Further, since you cannot get to Tier 10 ships without playing Tier 9 ships, the OP will necessarily play a bunch of T9 games. So saying not to play T8-T10 is also pointless.

And since it is 100% impossible to know when you'll have a high gross in a ship, by your logic it should never be used period, because you never know when you'll gross the highest in that ship.

You do need a net gain to purchase the next ship. You need a net gain, to purchase upgrades for your ship. You need 2,000,000 credits to purchase concealment modification 1, for a tier 8 ship. You have 1,000,000 credits. You have two options, a tier 9 ship, that you consistently lose money despite having the signal mounted, and you gross 108k, with a net less of 12k (again ignoring ammo resupply because it is too variable), or you can play the tier 8 without the concealment modification, gross 76,200, net gain of 1,200 putting you 1,200 credits closer to your 2,000,000 goal, instead of 10k away from it. When do you use it? When you can turn what would have been a net loss without the signal, into a net gain with it. You would be wasting those signals, by playing that tier 9, in this scenario, despite the higher gross pay.

And no, he doesn't have to play tier 9s. He could FXP his way to tier 10, completely bypassing tier 8 and 9 altogether. HECK, he could FXP his way past tiers 2-9 and jump straight to tier 10 (Stupid it would be, but possible). So the only two factors limiting tier 10 play, is how much time do you want to spend grinding the experience, and the credits you earn. Net gain in credits, is far more important than gross earning. If you have a net gain at a lower gross, and a net loss at a higher gross, the lower gross is the better deal for credit making. Use the signal for the net gain, not the gross. Use the signal to turn what would have been a loss into a gain. If you're using it on a ship you consistently lose credits on, then you're wasting the signal, when it could have been used to increase the net gain at another tier, or on another ship.
 

it's called business. Businesses look for the best deal possible. If a business is able to have a higher net gain, by having a lower gross earning, they would rather have a lower gross earning, for that higher net gain. A business that loses money by making $1,000,000, but gains money by making $500,000, would rather make $500,000, because that is where the profit is. Use the signal, when there is profit. If profit is not guaranteed at tiers 8-10 without perma-camo and/or premium account, even with the signal, then use of the signal at those tiers is a gamble, and could easily be a Bad Deal. If profit is guaranteed at tiers 8-10, even without the signal, then using the signal boosts the profits, and is a great deal. If profit is guaranteed only when you use the signal, then use the signal, good deal.

-Bad Deal: Credit is still at net loss even after bonuses are applied. If you consistently lose credits on a specific ship or at a specific tier, then don't play the ship/tier unless you're grinding something related to that tier/ship... Legendary upgrades for tier 10s come to mine, and of course tech-tree grinding if you're not wanting to FXP your way past it.
-Good Deal: Net Loss becomes a Net Gain. If using the signal is the only way to have a net gain for a specific ship or tier, then it is still recommend not playing the ship, unless you're grinding something, however, if you find the ship enjoyable despite the need for the signal, then by all means, use the signal.
-Great Deal: Net Gain even without bonuses. If you can consistently have a net gain, even in a bad battle, USE THE SIGANL! This ship/tier is a money maker for you, increase them profits.

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