Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Meeso_Thorny

What is the best 15" BB strat against Des Moines?

33 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

4,792
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
16,067 posts
14,462 battles

Welcome to the limitations of 380 / 381mm armed BBs!

 

One on one, DM with her sides protected fighting a 380mm armed BB is at a massive advantage.  I've killed 2 Bismarcks in an island infested area that thought 1 CA was an easy kill.  They couldn't maneuver to the sides due to all the islands in the area and they kept firing at my bow trying to citadel me from there.  With 380mm, they cannot pen against a 27mm bow.

 

AP the turrets if you can.  Cruiser turrets are very squishy compared to Battleship turrets.  If you're at range where your ship / aim isn't precise enough, disengage.  Use an island to break LOS to you or turn around.  Don't be afraid to bow tank it and do attrition if you got the HP.  Eventually your forward superstructure / bow area will get damage saturated by the HE spam and the damage against you will become less and less.  Keep firing to KO the turrets if you can.

 

The temptation is also there to angle out and show a bit of sides to get secondaries firing but be careful in doing that.  The vast majority of BBs to get a decent number of secondaries firing need to show a lot of sides.  It only means showing lots of fresh parts of the ship that haven't been damage saturated.

 

If it's one on one and you try to speed towards and maneuver to the DM's sides, I've simply angled, charged to the BB's flanks full speed to try to get behind the turrets while planting SHS AP into the sides.  A DM to your front bow camping with HE shells flying is bad for a 380mm armed BB, but a DM to your sides firing AP point blank is death.  Your secondaries will not keep up with the punishment DM will do from there.  If the BB doesn't charge but tries to move to the sides still, then I just keep the bow facing the 380mm BB and keep firing away.

 

If you have friends, just stay bow on and concentrate on the DM with focus fire.  If you got the best position to do so, maneuver to DM's side while she is forced to be bow on to one of you.  DM will have to choose who to be bow on against and whoever gets the side view, kills it.

 

The scarier part is if it's a High Tier German CA with 27mm bows and torpedoes :Smile_glasses:

 

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
244 posts
1,273 battles
7 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Welcome to the limitations of 380 / 381mm armed BBs!

 

One on one, DM with her sides protected fighting a 380mm armed BB is at a massive advantage.  I've killed 2 Bismarcks in an island infested area that thought 1 CA was an easy kill.  They couldn't maneuver to the sides due to all the islands in the area and they kept firing at my bow trying to citadel me from there.  With 380mm, they cannot pen against a 27mm bow.

 

AP the turrets if you can.  Cruiser turrets are very squishy compared to Battleship turrets.  If you're at range where your ship / aim isn't precise enough, disengage.  Use an island to break LOS to you or turn around.  Don't be afraid to bow tank it and do attrition if you got the HP.  Eventually your forward superstructure / bow area will get damage saturated by the HE spam and the damage against you will become less and less.  Keep firing to KO the turrets if you can.

 

The temptation is also there to angle out and show a bit of sides to get secondaries firing but be careful in doing that.  The vast majority of BBs to get a decent number of secondaries firing need to show a lot of sides.  It only means showing lots of fresh parts of the ship that haven't been damage saturated.

 

If it's one on one and you try to speed towards and maneuver to the DM's sides, I've simply angled, charged to the BB's flanks full speed to try to get behind the turrets while planting SHS AP into the sides.  A DM to your front bow camping with HE shells flying is bad for a 380mm armed BB, but a DM to your sides firing AP point blank is death.  Your secondaries will not keep up with the punishment DM will do from there.  If the BB doesn't charge but tries to move to the sides still, then I just keep the bow facing the 380mm BB and keep firing away.

 

If you have friends, just stay bow on and concentrate on the DM with focus fire.  If you got the best position to do so, maneuver to DM's side while she is forced to be bow on to one of you.  DM will have to choose who to be bow on against and whoever gets the side view, kills it.

 

The scarier part is if it's a High Tier German CA with 27mm bows and torpedoes :Smile_glasses:

 

 

Do you recommend fighting hellfire with hellfire?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,792
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
16,067 posts
14,462 battles
5 minutes ago, Meeso_Thorny said:

Do you recommend fighting hellfire with hellfire?

You can try HE if you want, but understand in an HE DPM race DM will win it with that 5.5 seconds base reload.  I say AP because you got the chance to disable turrets, and if kept up, turrets will break permanently.  Be patient.  I know it's alarming a.f. when you got big 203mm HE shells coming every 5.5 seconds or less (with AR running and MBM3 slotted).  Lots of guys start panicking and dig themselves into a bigger hole by doing something rash and wrong.  Be patient, keep going for the turrets and destroy them.  Don't aim for the bow, go for the turrets.  It's a hard fight but if you can disable, or especially destroy a turret, that has a YOOGE impact on what DM can do.

 

Also, if you ever find yourself in a similar situation but against a German CA of Tier VIII-X, do not advance towards them.  Not unless you like seeing a charging CA bounce your shells and plant torpedoes into you.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
244 posts
1,273 battles
11 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You can try HE if you want, but understand in an HE DPM race DM will win it with that 5.5 seconds base reload.  I say AP because you got the chance to disable turrets, and if kept up, turrets will break permanently.  Be patient.  I know it's alarming a.f. when you got big 203mm HE shells coming every 5.5 seconds or less (with AR running and MBM3 slotted).  Lots of guys start panicking and dig themselves into a bigger hole by doing something rash and wrong.  Be patient, keep going for the turrets and destroy them.  Don't aim for the bow, go for the turrets.  It's a hard fight but if you can disable, or especially destroy a turret, that has a YOOGE impact on what DM can do.

 

Also, if you ever find yourself in a similar situation but against a German CA of Tier VIII-X, do not advance towards them.  Not unless you like seeing a charging CA bounce your shells and plant torpedoes into you.

Somehow, only DM haunts my existence in 15" BBs. Now I guess I know how opponents of my Strv-103 feel. As far as the Germans go I wish a cruiser would turn broadside to launch it's pitiful 6km torpedoes, except maybe Roon which has apparently Bismarck's turtleback at close range

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
924
[WOLF9]
Members
1,103 posts
57 minutes ago, Meeso_Thorny said:

How should various 15" battlebotes deal with a facetanking totally-not-op hellfire-raining DM?

Turn broadside and unleash your full main battery and secondary might. Then tuck your bow between your rudders and kiss your stern goodbye.  Just be thankful it is HE, the ocean is so cold and wet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,792
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
16,067 posts
14,462 battles
20 minutes ago, Doombeagle said:

Turn broadside and unleash your full main battery and secondary might. Then tuck your bow between your rudders and kiss your stern goodbye.  Just be thankful it is HE, the ocean is so cold and wet.

You do NOT want to show full broadside to DM even as a Battleship.  That is the worst thing you can do as a BB against her.

28 minutes ago, Meeso_Thorny said:

Somehow, only DM haunts my existence in 15" BBs. Now I guess I know how opponents of my Strv-103 feel. As far as the Germans go I wish a cruiser would turn broadside to launch it's pitiful 6km torpedoes, except maybe Roon which has apparently Bismarck's turtleback at close range

The problem the High Tier German CAs present a BB in a short ranged fight is they can angle and charge.  Their armor is sufficient enough that they won't eat Mega Citadels like many other Cruisers do when trying such a thing.  Will they eat damage?  Yes.  But unless their HP was low to begin with, they'll survive enough that they'll plant their torpedoes into you.  Prinz Eugen, Admiral Hipper, Hindenburg can drop drop a lot of torps and the alpha dmg they can do because of that is scary even for a BB and their TDS.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
924
[WOLF9]
Members
1,103 posts
1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You do NOT want to show full broadside to DM even as a Battleship.  That is the worst thing you can do as a BB against her.

Shhhhh, I am hoping to run into him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
358 posts
5,154 battles
2 hours ago, Meeso_Thorny said:

How should various 15" battlebotes deal with a facetanking totally-not-op hellfire-raining DM?

Have you tried using HE ever?

"Oh I'm bouncing on this crusier, time to keep shooting AP"

I know WG dumbed down BBs by making their AP nearly universal, but pushing "1" shouldnt really be too outside your scope.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
92
[BLAZE]
Beta Testers
122 posts
3,612 battles

None. They'll out DPM you on any day while also being manoeuvrable enough to dodge your shells unless you close to within 10-15k range. At which you face the problem of DD stealth torps threat. The only thing you can do realistically is wish for luck. 
There is no counter to IFHE spam, you're talking anywhere between 3000-5000 dmg per salvo and that's from one ship, once you're spotted, disengage and run. 

Edited by LancasterOne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
725
[0456]
[0456]
Members
2,809 posts
7,992 battles
4 minutes ago, LancasterOne said:

None. They'll out DPM you on any day while also being manoeuvrable enough to dodge your shells unless you close to within 10-15k range. At which you face the problem of DD stealth torps threat. The only thing you can do realistically is wish for luck. 
There is no counter to IFHE spam, you're talking anywhere between 3000-5000 dmg per salvo and that's from one ship, once you're spotted, disengage and run. 

Except as mentioned earlier for damage saturation- 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
92
[BLAZE]
Beta Testers
122 posts
3,612 battles
40 minutes ago, _ENO_ said:

Except as mentioned earlier for damage saturation- 

That's assuming a DM will continue to engage or let you get close enough to get accurate fire on the turrets. If a DM knows what's he's doing, he'll be probably behind an island or using smoke cover or worse coming with friends. It's such a force multiplier there really is few counters to the ship short of waiting for their captain to make a mistake. Overextend, switching sides and in the process giving you broadsides and the lack. Killing a DM is more luck than skill if the DM captain is somewhat competent. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,792
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
16,067 posts
14,462 battles
2 hours ago, LancasterOne said:

None. They'll out DPM you on any day while also being manoeuvrable enough to dodge your shells unless you close to within 10-15k range. At which you face the problem of DD stealth torps threat. The only thing you can do realistically is wish for luck. 
There is no counter to IFHE spam, you're talking anywhere between 3000-5000 dmg per salvo and that's from one ship, once you're spotted, disengage and run. 

Except the beauty of 203mm is that you can flip off IFHE and not need it.  Des Memes don't need no steenkin' IFHE :Smile_glasses:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,268
[RKLES]
Members
7,200 posts
8,961 battles
5 hours ago, Meeso_Thorny said:

How should various 15" battlebotes deal with a facetanking totally-not-op hellfire-raining DM?

Bismarck is easy... If your main guns fail you, then just hose them down with your full secondary build that you should have on Bismarck or Tirpitz. The DM will melt under the withering impacts of those secondary shells and the fires they create... :cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_haloween:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,792
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
16,067 posts
14,462 battles
10 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Bismarck is easy... If your main guns fail you, then just hose them down with your full secondary build that you should have on Bismarck or Tirpitz. The DM will melt under the withering impacts of those secondary shells and the fires they create... :cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_haloween:

 

Bismarck in Secondaries range to a DM made an idiotic move.

 

1.  You are now in range where DM's floaty shells that would normally struggle at extended ranges, suddenly can no longer miss.

2.  Your piddly Secondaries will not keep up with DM's 203mm Auto-Loading guns.  Those piddly little Secondaries will never keep up with 5.5 second or faster firing DM guns, especially since DM cannot miss at that range.

3.  If you are using Secondaries on DM, that means you are showing a lot of sides and to me, it's time for feeding Ze German a lot of American Made Freedom SHS Armor Piercing Shells.

4.  When the pain of American SHS AP shells into the sides becomes too unbearable and the Bismarck decides to turn away or try to go bow on, it's back to HE City and cooking Ze German.

 

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,268
[RKLES]
Members
7,200 posts
8,961 battles
5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Bismarck in Secondaries range to a DM made an idiotic move.

 

1.  You are now in range where DM's floaty shells that would normally struggle at extended ranges, suddenly can no longer miss.

2.  Your piddly Secondaries will not keep up with DM's 203mm Auto-Loading guns.  Those piddly little Secondaries will never keep up with 5.5 second or faster firing DM guns, especially since DM cannot miss at that range.

3.  If you are using Secondaries on DM, that means you are showing a lot of sides and to me, it's time for feeding Ze German a lot of American Made Freedom SHS Armor Piercing Shells.

4.  When the pain of American SHS AP shells into the sides becomes too unbearable and the Bismarck decides to turn away or try to go bow on, it's back to HE City and cooking Ze German.

 

 

Ah that is why you must me extremely aggressive, if you are forced to be in bow on engagement then charge the DM and possibly ram, or if really good slip past at last moment and give that CA a side full of German 15” AP... 

But actually I often catch the CAs broadside so if they survive that the finishing off at mid range is reasonable enough.

I should probably mention I use Premium Consumables,  and some signal flags so pulling some of these kind of stunts are more possible than usual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
Members
1,590 posts
4,356 battles

I feel bad for you, man. On the flip side, it’s good that you’re meeting so few competent cruiser captains.  I’ll be honest, in a high tier cruiser, Bismarck is the BB I like the most. When it comes down to it, her guns are garbage. Between the small bore, the low accuracy, and low barrel count, the crapfiring angles...it’s just really hard for you to deal damage. On the other hand, Bismarck is a damage sponge. I can shoot HE or AP at almost any ranges and get some kind of result. 

I’d say that in general, you want to be on a flank that affords you a tactical retreat or the option to tuck in behind cover. Positioning is super important with the KM ships in general. Some positioning errors are hard, impossible even, to correct. Play like a cruiser yourself in the early game while you wait for an opportunity to push just up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
161
[POP]
Members
596 posts
11,971 battles

    Try not to be his target and get shots into his side if you can flank. If given no other option you either close and try to wreck his turrets or you hang back and play his game lobbing HE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
375
[INTEL]
Members
794 posts
8,257 battles
5 hours ago, Meeso_Thorny said:

 As far as the Germans go I wish a cruiser would turn broadside to launch it's pitiful 6km torpedoes, except maybe Roon which has apparently Bismarck's turtleback at close range

Big words. German cruisers dont need to turn broadside to launch torps. They're second only to French cruisers for easy launch angles. You get a Hindy or Roon within 6km in a BB you better hope hes on low Hp or makes a serious misplay. Yeah, German cruisers from Yorck on up have a turtleback.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,541
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
3,866 posts
5,255 battles

Simple, you don’t engage a dug-in Des Moines.   You retreat and go fight another part of the battle until you (or somebody else) can work around to the flank.   Head-on attacks against opponents in a superior tactical position is foolish.

That’s my general impression of BB players who complain about being “constantly” on fire.   It’s probably because they’re bow camping idiots who just sit in one spot and let cruisers hose them down.

That said, if you get caught in a bad position, and are forced into a bow-on engagement against Des Moines, aim for the turrets to slow their volume of fire, and get in close and angle to use your awesome secondaries (if you have them).... if not well you’re probably just screwed.   But the more of his turrets you take out, the longer you live and the more time there is for something to change.  Like an ally flanking him or whatnot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
311
[TF_34]
[TF_34]
Beta Testers
1,058 posts
3,926 battles
7 hours ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Have you tried using HE ever?

"Oh I'm bouncing on this crusier, time to keep shooting AP"

I know WG dumbed down BBs by making their AP nearly universal, but pushing "1" shouldnt really be too outside your scope.

Again though, like Haze said...that HE DPM race is going to favor the DM in a big way. Also that AP has a chance to knock out turrets and neuter the HE hellfire spam--much like Haze also said. Could be wrong but I don't think 15" HE will pen DM turret face armor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,792
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
16,067 posts
14,462 battles
3 hours ago, Ares1967 said:

Big words. German cruisers dont need to turn broadside to launch torps. They're second only to French cruisers for easy launch angles. You get a Hindy or Roon within 6km in a BB you better hope hes on low Hp or makes a serious misplay. Yeah, German cruisers from Yorck on up have a turtleback.

Once I get the Tier VIII or X German CAs within launch ranges for the torps, I feel the fight was won already :Smile_teethhappy:  The package is on the way.  The Cruisers that have to flash tons of sides to drop torpedoes are IJN.  German ones have respectable launch angles.  406mm+ armed BBs at least got a chance to land a bunch of Overmatch AP Penetrations and kill the Cruiser before the drops, but 380 / 381mm armed BBs, nope.  There's no helping them.

 

With the increased prevalence of 380mm armed BBs with 2 more to follow, one in Tier IX and even one in Tier X, the 27mm bow on specific USN & German CAs has gained a lot of value, and will become even more important.  It's why I feel safer with Des Moines than I do in Worcester.  Worcester has a lot of bells and whistles, but the security of the 27mm bow and smart use of map makes Des Moines a very annoying, tough nut to deal with for a number of ships.

 

On the flip side, with this being NA server and a natural alignment to USN ships, as well as German Cruisers being pretty popular, it is why I really like 406mm+ armed Battleships.  Those 27mm Cruiser bows won't hold up to the bigger guns.

12 minutes ago, BBsquid said:

Again though, like Haze said...that HE DPM race is going to favor the DM in a big way. Also that AP has a chance to knock out turrets and neuter the HE hellfire spam--much like Haze also said. Could be wrong but I don't think 15" HE will pen DM turret face armor.

You are better off with Bismarck's AP against DM turrets than you would HE.  If you can hit the turrets, then the AP is a bigger payoff.  See here Bismarck's AP Penetration at different ranges.

5km is 636mm of penetration

10km is 533mm of penetration

 

Bismarck gets bonus HE Pen like a German Cruiser.

380mm / 4 = 95mm of armor needed to defeat Bismarck's HE shell

 

Her AP has way more penetration at these brawling ranges where you can make precision shots.  In addition, the AP has a lot more raw damage value.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
177
[70]
Members
973 posts
3,846 battles

Run away. While firing HE at him over your shoulder. 15" BB vs DM 1v1 is usually a hopeless affair.

Or better yet, catch him with his pants down broadside and plant double citadels into his flank while he tries to bow-tank others on your team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
244 posts
1,273 battles
11 hours ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Have you tried using HE ever?

"Oh I'm bouncing on this crusier, time to keep shooting AP"

I know WG dumbed down BBs by making their AP nearly universal, but pushing "1" shouldnt really be too outside your scope.

It's cute how big of a sense of superiority you draw from defeating a strawman (HAHA OP NEVER USES HE) that has already been vanquished a few posts before yours. i'm impressed a kindergartner can read and write at this level

 

7 hours ago, Ares1967 said:

Big words. German cruisers dont need to turn broadside to launch torps. They're second only to French cruisers for easy launch angles. You get a Hindy or Roon within 6km in a BB you better hope hes on low Hp or makes a serious misplay. Yeah, German cruisers from Yorck on up have a turtleback.

I'm looking at it from the perspective that Richelieu is actually faster than the german cruisers so, have fun in that chase brotha. I don't know that I've ever been torpedoed by a german cruiser. I don't let torpedo boats get to 8km if I can help it let alone less than 6, except when I'm engaging ManMode(tm) and Charging the Smoke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×