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Prkl8r

I'm confused, are RN DDs DD hunters or not?

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I'm kind of confused by mixed messages on this line.

It seemed like they were quite clearly DD hunters, but now post nerf people are saying they are stay at range behind islands and harass like RN CLs.

I want to know because DD hunting is fun, while sitting behind islands, peppering BBs and CA/Ls sounds lame for a DD.

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It might be hard to say for certain, since the line changes a few times.  But the lower and mid tier DDs can really abuse their multiple short smokes to bully away other DDs, while being near immune to torps because of hydro and super acceleration.  Hunting with them can be difficult but it's hilariously easy to hold an area.  As radar gets more common I doubt that will work as easily.

I think people are saying you should harass with them because they have amazing fire chances for the caliber, and while I can't disagree that it may be effective I'm not sure if that's the best use you can get out of them.

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1 minute ago, Kenjister said:

It might be hard to say for certain, since the line changes a few times.  But the lower and mid tier DDs can really abuse their multiple short smokes to bully away other DDs, while being near immune to torps because of hydro and super acceleration.  Hunting with them can be difficult but it's hilariously easy to hold an area.  As radar gets more common I doubt that will work as easily.

I think people are saying you should harass with them because they have amazing fire chances for the caliber, and while I can't disagree that it may be effective I'm not sure if that's the best use you can get out of them.

They seem really awkward due to their super floaty shells, but also low speed.

I thought that was what the super good concealment was for so that they could get close before opening up with guns, than smoking and getting away, as their speed is terrible.

IDK maybe it's fine, but on paper the quirks of, at least the high tier ships, don't seem to synergies well.

I could be completely wrong though.

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they are pretty good at DD killing. I find the HE to be hard hitting against other DDs. If you have help, you can do a good job clearing out a cap.

 

But the vis range isn't that great, even with concealment expert, the IJN DD will see you before you see them.

Going to a cap alone really isn't an option, but you can provide support.

 

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7 minutes ago, Prkl8r said:

I'm kind of confused by mixed messages on this line.

It seemed like they were quite clearly DD hunters, but now post nerf people are saying they are stay at range behind islands and harass like RN CLs.

I want to know because DD hunting is fun, while sitting behind islands, peppering BBs and CA/Ls sounds lame for a DD.

One thing you will notice about the RN DD line is the lack of an engine boost consumable. Also note the high arcs similar or worse than 5 inch destroyer shells. That means chasing down a dd is going to be difficult unless you catch him in a dead stop. CC's had described RN DD's as "Defensive Destroyers" . Think of them of smaller versions of the RCL line. You defend Cap areas by shooting over islands. 

The good thing about Cossack is that she does have an engine boost, at the expense of poor DPM.

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11 minutes ago, Slumlord_Cheeto said:

At this point the lightning is the best one and no reason to go further. 

People are already screaming that Tier X Daring is broken.  But all this is still up in the air as things can change still.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Generally good DD hunter has

(A) a big HP pool because you need it to survive duels with DDs/shells thrown by their friends

(B) good dpm to hose them down quickly before their friends arrive

(C) decent concealment to allow you to ambush them/not be detected from miles away

Akizuki and Kidd, for example, do all 3 well. 

UK lack a bit of HP, imo. Any damage severely cripples their ability to contest caps and relegates them to a scouting role.


EDIT: Hitpoints are a bit underrated for cap contesting, imo.

1. Let's say you ambush someone in a Kidd or Akizuki.

Cossack has 18k HP.  Kidd has 19.6k,  Akizuki has 23k.

2. Let's say each ambushes a DD successfully but they lose 8k in the duel.  

The Cossack now has 9k. Taking on another DD is now problematic.

The Akizuki has 14k. Probably more as its dpm will put down the enemy DD faster.

The Kidd has 15-19k as it has healed itself back up; double the Cossack.

3. Now, the ships need to contest a second cap. 

With only 9K health the Cossack must be very wary, whereas the Kidd and Akizuki can still be confident of winning their encounter.

Edited by evilleMonkeigh

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DD Hunter is not the right way to describe them. They are also not quite like the RNCLs, although they are capable of doing that. They excell at holding caps. They don't have to shoot over islands, as they are great at kiting. They turn on a dime and lose no speed doing it. They also do not fear DD hunter destroyers, as they can knife fight at close range very well. Actually, their lack of top speed is the only reason they can't hunt.

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5 minutes ago, evilleMonkeigh said:

UK lack a bit of HP, imo. Any damage severely cripples their ability to contest caps and relegates them to a scouting role.

It's hard for the RN DD line to be scouts when there is no engine boost. No 8% increase in speed. That means slower response times to defend or attack a distant area. It also means increased difficulty in disengaging if you're caught in a bad position. I see no problems defending a cap. First time capping? Better be a Flamu level player.

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17 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

People are already screaming that Tier X Daring is broken.  But all this is still up in the air as things can change still.

 

Well lightning doesn't need IFHE, outspots basically every other DD in game and has enough serviceable DPM to kill T10 DDs when it has them at the advantage.

Daring gives up 4 commander skill points and significant spotting advantage for a bit more hull and higher DPM.

Neither Lightning nor Daring are able to outrun anything, neither can radar or KM hydro, neither can torp effectively outside radar range, neither can use islands as well as USN.

The lightning can effectively push a cap by outspotting the enemy in 98% of cases and leveraging cruiser support without the need for radar until they smoke up.  It can just as easily push into the enemy smoke with hydro and gun down a mortally wounded T10 as any bully DD, all because it survived untouched for the first minute.

The Daring can't risk it.  It will get spotted by the enemy DD a significant amount of the time, but it doesn't have the 40+kts to run effectively.  This means you don't play the cap at all, you wait and give the enemy initiative.  Yes the Daring has "more hp", but this is DD HP, the difference is only meaningful in certain situations against certain foes.  This turns the Daring into a bad Haragumo/RN CL hybrid thing.

Edited by FlakKnight

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Quote

It's hard for the RN DD line to be scouts when there is no engine boost. No 8% increase in speed.

Yes. It's hard to be a scout if you're slow, or a DD hunter with less HP (Akizuki line shows you don't need speed to fight DDs).

Proper Hydro might help.

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33 minutes ago, Prkl8r said:

They seem really awkward due to their super floaty shells, but also low speed.

I thought that was what the super good concealment was for so that they could get close before opening up with guns, than smoking and getting away, as their speed is terrible.

IDK maybe it's fine, but on paper the quirks of, at least the high tier ships, don't seem to synergies well.

I could be completely wrong though.

 

The good concealment is gone as of now.

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My only experience is Icarus.

I had a lot of success hunting other T6 and T5 dds with her. T7 or higher dds?. Nope, although the 6 km concealment (with CE, 6.8 base without CE) certainly helps, the low HP is not enough to dogfight higher tier dds. Icarus, in my case, is really good at crippling dds and setting bbs on fire, but the guns struggle to do damage, Even worse when you're up tiered as your low torp range (7 km) mixed with that 6.8 km base concealment is simply not enough. You can, though, drop torps at 9 km if the enemy is going straight toward you, but, how many times has anything go straight for more than 15 secs?. Like i said, up tiered is difficult.

I treat Icarus as a defensive dd. I simply move around and engage anything that comes my way (with torps and guns). If I'm attacked i simply begin kitting, use the smoke, run and wait for more favorable conditions. I try to ambush the occasional target of opportunity (mainly a lonesome bb) and if i cant, i try to spot for the team.

All in all, Icarus, at least for me, (when top tiered or at the very least fighting T7s) is very good at ambushing unsuspecting enemies with that ridiculously short range (3km) but very long duration hydro, acceptable guns that do low damage, have high arcs but are very good at setting fires and crippling modules (knocking out dds engines and rudders very easily), 7km torps, really good smoke for running away and very good maneuverability to dodge the hail of bullets going your way. I'm kinda hoping the rest of the line is just as fun.

PS: Take note, that i'm not exactly a great dd player, i tend to die very quickly in most dds, however i wanted to share the my experience so far.

Edited by Sidelock

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20 minutes ago, Schindlers_Stink_Fist said:

 

The good concealment is gone as of now.

I know, I was just saying what I thought they were supposed to be. Apparently not now though.

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27 minutes ago, FlakKnight said:

 

Well lightning doesn't need IFHE, outspots basically every other DD in game and has enough serviceable DPM to kill T10 DDs when it has them at the advantage.

Daring gives up 4 commander skill points and significant spotting advantage for a bit more hull and higher DPM.

Neither Lightning nor Daring are able to outrun anything, neither can radar or KM hydro, neither can torp effectively outside radar range, neither can use islands as well as USN.

The lightning can effectively push a cap by outspotting the enemy in 98% of cases and leveraging cruiser support without the need for radar until they smoke up.  It can just as easily push into the enemy smoke with hydro and gun down a mortally wounded T10 as any bully DD, all because it survived untouched for the first minute.

The Daring can't risk it.  It will get spotted by the enemy DD a significant amount of the time, but it doesn't have the 40+kts to run effectively.  This means you don't play the cap at all, you wait and give the enemy initiative.  Yes the Daring has "more hp", but this is DD HP, the difference is only meaningful in certain situations against certain foes.  This turns the Daring into a bad Haragumo/RN CL hybrid thing.

Daring doesn't need IFHE for her puny 113mm guns.  Was watching Flamu's video and it seems they gave her RN CL AP characteristics.  They gave her Repair Party also.

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I think the fact that they maintain speed in a turn may be more important than we realize.  Speed boost is good for straight line running, but the RN DDs have better acceleration and maintain speed while kiting/dodging.  To me, they have a different play style than any other DDs I have driven.  Run and gun and ambushing.  And, yes, the T7 can do some pretty good island firing, too.  It will be interesting to try the T8-T10, I only have through the T7 - and I really like her guns.

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All I know is I'm going to keep the lightning, I may get a prem camo for it, I will not advance to the darling now. I would rather have the lightning in a t10 match then this newly nerfed darling. Of course this could end up problematic as well, because they may end up nerfing the lightnings concealment because you can't have a t8 better then the t10. 

 

 

Edited by Slumlord_Cheeto
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11 minutes ago, ExploratorOne said:

I think the fact that they maintain speed in a turn may be more important than we realize.  Speed boost is good for straight line running, but the RN DDs have better acceleration and maintain speed while kiting/dodging.  To me, they have a different play style than any other DDs I have driven.  Run and gun and ambushing.  And, yes, the T7 can do some pretty good island firing, too.  It will be interesting to try the T8-T10, I only have through the T7 - and I really like her guns.

 

The higher the tier, the more conceal is important as a DD. If you don't have conceal, you better have speed.

 

Daring, in it's current beta iteration, has neither. 

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1 minute ago, Schindlers_Stink_Fist said:

 

The higher the tier, the more conceal is important as a DD. If you don't have conceal, you better have speed.

 

Daring, in it's current beta iteration, has neither. 

I hope they don't go through with this nerf, for the love of God don't do it WG!!!!!

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2 minutes ago, Slumlord_Cheeto said:

I hope they don't go through with this nerf, for the love of God don't do it WG!!!!!

 

Yeah, I'm definitely not a doom and gloom type, but this change is really bad. I would mind them just keeping how it was before and removing the heal.

 

Outside of the speed and conceal, the Daring isn't exactly a "small" DD either. 

 

ugh......

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Based on fighting it, it works best as a "cap escort"; you back up another DD when pushing. You can't outrun other DDs but you CAN juke hard with the turn rate at close quarters and can make them waste torps that you effectively dodge. Your HE also has a slightly better AOE, which is good if your ally is taking the heat (it gives you a better chance at breaking the engine and crippling them to get focused down).

By yourself, you mainly have to gunbote like a Russian DD.

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Just now, Schindlers_Stink_Fist said:

 

Yeah, I'm definitely not a doom and gloom type, but this change is really bad. I would mind them just keeping how it was before and removing a heal.

 

Outside of the speed and conceal, the Daring isn't exactly a "small" DD either. 

 

ugh......

If they nerf the concealment there is literally no reason to play the ship at all. If I want to play a gun DD I'll play the haragumo. 

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12 minutes ago, NATOMarksman said:

By yourself, you mainly have to gunbote like a Russian DD.

Which is pretty much impossible when you are the slowest Tier X DD.

 

Slumlord is right, with these changes there's really no reason to play the Daring. It shoots fast and has a large health pool, whoopdiedo. 

 

You can't make a Dd and have it be really slow and have poor concealment...........that's just dumb. 

 

 

 

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