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Vaffu

Unnerfing the Khab

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With the addition of ships like the Worchester and the Jap DDs in the game that are exactly like Khabs used to be there really is no reason behind the huge nerfs they received way back when. 

How about restoring the rudder shift, gun, and torp ranges back to what they were? The tiny gun range it has is a bit ridiculous considering all these new ships that have been released.

 

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*scratches head*

Khab got heal and it got extended range in recent patch, no?

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3 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

*scratches head*

Khab got heal and it got extended range in recent patch, no?

Had heal for a while yes but I have not played my Khab in a while so I am unsure about any range increase. I will have to lean towards I do not believe so but am logging on now to see.

 

Just checked and no. The gun range is still 11.2.  You can achieve 13.5 through mods and Captain skills but even that is horrendously low compared to other T10 ships

Edited by Vaffu

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Buff the the Khaba!?!?!? Umm how is it bad exactly? Last I checked it still was doing quite well...

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Has my vote. If it is to be un-nerfed I don't think it should have the option for steering gears mod 3.

Old range, plus old rudder shift, plus steering gears mod 3 would be too much imo.

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Just now, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Buff the the Khaba!?!?!? Umm how is it bad exactly? Last I checked it still was doing quite well...

I did not say buff anything. I said un nerf.  They have released ships that are basically Khabs under different flags so I just do not see the point to keep Khab nerfed.

The Khab has low gun range, and gimped agility yet the newer ships are pretty much what Khabs were.

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1 minute ago, Troa_Barton said:

Has my vote. If it is to be un-nerfed I don't think it should have the option for steering gears mod 3.

Old range, plus old rudder shift, plus steering gears mod 3 would be too much imo.

Yes I was just thinking that same thing actually. I do not think it even needs the torp range restored to be honest now that I think about it. The gun range and handling are weak however.

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1 minute ago, Vaffu said:

Yes I was just thinking that same thing actually. I do not think it even needs the torp range restored to be honest now that I think about it. The gun range and handling are weak however.

The torps would be nice but it isn't a deal breaker, I just want the gun range and agility back. Any BB worth their salt can hit a Khab as it is now.

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13 minutes ago, Troa_Barton said:

The torps would be nice but it isn't a deal breaker, I just want the gun range and agility back. Any BB worth their salt can hit a Khab as it is now.

Yes.

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The Harugumo is absolutely not a Khab - it has no armor and it’s too big/slow to survive in open water without visibility management. Khabs devour gumos in open water; at the same time they’re crazy to engage a gumo in its happy place (island chains with an ally to spot the Khab).  

Wooster lacks the speed/agility of Khab (relatively speaking) and it has a citadel, so it’s an XP piñata for BBs in open water. It takes much more skill to hit Khaba at 12 km with a BB.

Great BB players can still ruin Khaba’s day, but that’s the heart of the Khabarovsk paradox. Random games are full of people who shoot the wrong ammo type and dont lead enough, so Khaba has a field day even with both legs tied behind its back. But in competitive play everyone can shoot. If you buff Khab enough to make it convenient to rank out (as the OP suggests) it would be pretty clearly OP in randoms. 

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16 minutes ago, Troa_Barton said:

The torps would be nice but it isn't a deal breaker, I just want the gun range and agility back. Any BB worth their salt can hit a Khab as it is now.

Yup...not terribly hard, because the rudder shift is so garbo and the range so short.  Khab does well against isolated ships, distracted ships, DD dumb enough to get caught close...it's not that it's bad, per se...no, no...but, it IS a fine example of differing perspectives on the same ship. 

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58 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Buff the the Khaba!?!?!? Umm how is it bad exactly? Last I checked it still was doing quite well...

Unless I drive her....I really suck In that destroyer...

Now the trashcan, that i can drive.

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7 minutes ago, Eugenie_101 said:

The Harugumo is absolutely not a Khab - it has no armor and it’s too big/slow to survive in open water without visibility management. Khabs devour gumos in open water; at the same time they’re crazy to engage a gumo in its happy place (island chains with an ally to spot the Khab).  

Wooster lacks the speed/agility of Khab (relatively speaking) and it has a citadel, so it’s an XP piñata for BBs in open water. It takes much more skill to hit Khaba at 12 km with a BB.

Great BB players can still ruin Khaba’s day, but that’s the heart of the Khabarovsk paradox. Random games are full of people who shoot the wrong ammo type and dont lead enough, so Khaba has a field day even with both legs tied behind its back. But in competitive play everyone can shoot. If you buff Khab enough to make it convenient to rank out (as the OP suggests) it would be pretty clearly OP in randoms. 

Khabs are supposed to devour Harugumo's and at range IF spotted they can do that. Up close, close enough for the Khab to detect the gumo if he didn't get torped or shot up on approach the Khab is going to lose. Especially in confined spaces where it cant regain range during the fight.
Worcester is another ship the Khab is supposed to do well against.... It has a playstyle that revolves around being stationary, firing at low speed / close targets, using radar on stealthy DDs, and doesn't like being flanked. Those are all things the Khab doesn't care about and plays against.
Even bad BBs can accidentally hit a shell seemingly every salvo, good ones trade evenly, and the sharpshooters can almost if not outright delete it.
We shouldn't balance a tier 10 ship off of the lowest common denominator, its tier 10 for crying out loud..

2 minutes ago, Mahrs said:

Yup...not terribly hard, because the rudder shift is so garbo and the range so short.  Khab does well against isolated ships, distracted ships, DD dumb enough to get caught close...it's not that it's bad, per se...no, no...but, it IS a fine example of differing perspectives on the same ship. 

Its not terrible, definitely not saying that. It just has a hard time doing its job if there is a crackshot on the enemy team or at least a couple people with their nose out of the glue bottle.

Harugumo has more average damage, and more average frags, while having a 0.5% less win rate and far less battles played. That discrepancy can be accounted for by the fact that the ship is still new and that it needs spotting to really deal damage.
The Harugumo is the second dedicated T10 gunboat DD and its power reflects that.

To make the point which ship would you rather see on the enemy team?
A Khaba or a Harugumo?
One can cap, torp, and burn down anything while being unseen. The other has no convictions on being stealthy and has one trick going for it. Both can dominate in a DD knife fight but one has to close a considerable distance first. Not to mention the Haragumo can torp a Khaba, the reverse happening would be a very rare occurrence.
Stealth>Speed when it comes to objective control.

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Khab are so rarely a factor in the matches I play - those rare games where they are present, they don't seem decisive.  That might not be normal, I don't know.  They don't bring a lot of tools to the fight, but they do harvest taters well.  Gummi is a more extreme example...arguably easier to punish in theory, but it rarely plays out that way in the matches I see her.  The ships that can counter her often lack the nerve to do so...and the whole team suffers.  Gummi's practical DPM far out strips Khab.  A Khab shooting at me is an annoyance.  Gummi shooting at me is a grave threat to my ship that gives me very little time to escape or neutralize before I'm back in port.  

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    In the past two months the Khaba has just under a 1% higher win rate than Harugumo with slightly under 2k damage less done per battle. In the past week the Khaba has out damaged and has a higher win rate then the Harugumo. Both top the board with damage done on average for destroyers at tier 10. I am not sure this is indicative that it needs anything done to it to make it perform better. 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

Can look it up yourself here

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41 minutes ago, Mahrs said:

Khab are so rarely a factor in the matches I play - those rare games where they are present, they don't seem decisive.  That might not be normal, I don't know. 

It seems that way...and yet they win a lot.  Let me suggest that the Khab contributes in ways that aren't so obvious in a game.  I never focus primarily on damage or kills when I play Khab.  I obviously don't focus on caps, although I'll cap when there's no Z46 or Shimikaze contesting it.  Instead, I focus almost entirely on map control.  My philosophy is that the team that with better control of the map has a huge advantage, so I constantly look for flanks that the enemy is not defending or weak sides that the enemy could capitalize on.  It has enough speed to engage an enemy pushing any flank on the map, and it can afford to sail out in the open and harass an enemy push until they turn back.  Harugumo lacks the speed to re-position as needed and it needs cover to pull off that magnificent DPS, which makes its ability to control the map highly situational. 

Take my last game for example.  A DD threatened our CV, so I closed from the other side of the map in time to kill him and help turn back the BB/CA backing him up.  I got one kill and some ok damage from that, but the enemies who turned around essentially took themselves out of the game. 

If Khaba can get the enemy to retreat from one side of the map while the rest of your team pushes from the other, you set up a pincer / cross-fire scenario that is almost always deadly for the team that gets surrounded.  Controlling enemy movements like a sheepdog is something Khaba is almost uniquely suited for.  For that specific role, the closest alternative ship is not a DD but French cruisers.  

This strategy seems to have worked well for me so far.  Khab mainly gets countered when (1) when the reds' weak flank is guarded by Zao/Moskva.  An average player in either ship can leave me unable to close to a distance where I can do any damage at all.  Large caliber rail guns are a real PITA.  Also (2) I hate when BB player has unusually good aim.  Rank 1 Yamato players on the red team are like a red halo around the moon - batten the hatches and keep the lifeboats ready. 

Edited by Eugenie_101
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1 hour ago, Vaffu said:

I did not say buff anything. I said un nerf.  They have released ships that are basically Khabs under different flags so I just do not see the point to keep Khab nerfed.

The Khab has low gun range, and gimped agility yet the newer ships are pretty much what Khabs were.

Worce is not a DD and IJN dds are nothing like the Khab.

Has not got its speed, 50mm armor plating, heal or railguns and even have worse turning circle.

Edited by Final8ty

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The only unnerf Khab really needs?

Restore the 10km torps she once had.

Yes, only 21 battles in her, but save for Hindy/Moskva/Zao, she's typically able to pew pew on whatever target. I engaged from >10km and catch them broadside if possible since generally speaking, the AP outdamages the HE.

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1 hour ago, Eugenie_101 said:

 Khab mainly gets countered when (1) when the reds' weak flank is guarded by Zao/Moskva.  An average player in either ship can leave me unable to close to a distance where I can do any damage at all.  Large caliber rail guns are a real PITA.  Also (2) I hate when BB player has unusually good aim.  Rank 1 Yamato players on the red team are like a red halo around the moon - batten the hatches and keep the lifeboats ready. 

Khabarovsk's biggest counter are terrible team mates that ignore the fact that multiple ships try to chase you off and continue sitting back instead of shooting at the distracted enemies, that happens in every game ever. I run IFHE and concealment module to deal with cruiser threats. 

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