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Helstrem

Why lopsided battles are so common in WoWS

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I've seen players whining about lopsided match outcomes for as long as I've been here and this weekends seems to be producing a bumper crop of these complaints, usually focusing on bad players as being the cause.

Bad players are not the primary cause of blowout wins and losses in WoWS.  They can be a contributing factor, but pitting superunicum teams against each other will still often produce blowout results.

The reason is built into the core of the game.  When one side loses a ship the other side gains a firepower advantage at the same time as reducing the number of targets to split their fire making it more likely that the next ship to go down will be on the team that lost the first ship.  Now, 11 vs 12 is not all that much different and so it isn't much of an indicator, but 10 vs 12?  9 vs 12?  It quickly spirals out of control and can only be overcome by great skill or luck.

The primary reason so many lopsided matches happen in WoWS is that WoWS has very limited functionality to assist a team that has fallen behind, basically limited to base capping in the face of a superior enemy.  In comparison, a game like Team Fortress or Overwatch allows respawns and makes the attacking team's spawn distance to the initial objective closer than the defending team, and then the defending team's spawn closer to the second objective if the first is lost.  This means that the team is not punished nearly as harshly for losing a member of the team and as the match progresses the positional advantage shifts to the team that is struggling.

I am not saying WG should add respawns to WoWS.  I am simply explaining why lopsided results are so common.  Blaming bad players misses the fact that lopsided outcomes are a secondary outcome of the design features of WoWS, just as having two dominant political parties is the secondary outcome of a first past the post, winner take all election system as exists in the US.  The people designing the system may well have not intended, or even wanted the opposite result, but the secondary results are built into the system.

Complaining about bad players causing blowouts in WoWS is to direct one's ire at the wrong target and to misunderstand why blowouts happen.  The snowball effect causes blowouts to be common even when both teams are evenly matched.

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Or to summarize since a picture is worth a thousand words, maybe a gif is worth a million.

 

Tve7XlC.gif

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It's also a function of Lanchester's Laws

You had noticed it. 1 ship on either side dies. Unless the other sides kill a ship next, the rate of ship loss starts accelerating. The side that has a 2 ship disadvantage or higher throughout the game is going to be on the back foot. Even if they have a 2 to 1 cap advantage. Because it will come to a time where the side with the ship disadvantage can't dispute the caps.

 

 

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Potato will be potato even with respawn , you will not change anything , a team of coordinate player will always win over lonely potato

 

Exemple here yesterday my clan did sync drop , 3 vs 3 + the random , we had double mass + Bismark , they had kids, Cleveland, and Bismark on the other side of the map , my division steam rolled their team , because we were coordinate d and focus firing , my division ended up with 8 kill out of 12 ,

 

Coordination is keys to win , without it  you will lose most of the time

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Life expectancy in WoWS is high enough to not warrant respawns...WoWP, on the other hand, getting killed in less than 5 seconds on first contact is routine if the one getting killed is flying straight...

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lopsided gammes happen because of the following things

 

Gunnery: you or your opponant has some better marksmen.

RNG: Detonations and Cits pens vs overpens. will RNG favor your volley or will you miss all 9 shots.... time will tell.

Momentum: Morale and momentum play a very strong roll in player thinking and actions, playing when moreale is high usually will result in more precise actions and swifter responses. Momentum, killing one or 2 ships in a short time without a loss on your side means you have a distinct firepower advantage, with the number of people usualy split off to cap a point. Losing one cap force will give a distinct advantage to the killing team and allow them to manuver more freely.

Manuvers: where you are and where you and your team can focus firepower, everyone [edited] and whines about how BB's camp in the back, CL are always hugging island waifu, and DD's are suicidal and need more HP or armor. but a team that has a superior position and can bring more firepower onto a target in a shorter amount of time will have the advantage. 

Focused fire: This is the big one, a team that picks a target, and smashes it before selecting another will ALMOST ALWAYS have a massive advantage due to the systematic removal of a target. Versus everyone spreading fire out among all 7 or 12 red ships.

 

just some food for thaught

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26 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

I've seen players whining about lopsided match outcomes for as long as I've been here and this weekends seems to be producing a bumper crop of these complaints, usually focusing on bad players as being the cause.

Bad players are not the primary cause of blowout wins and losses in WoWS.  They can be a contributing factor, but pitting superunicum teams against each other will still often produce blowout results.

The reason is built into the core of the game.  When one side loses a ship the other side gains a firepower advantage at the same time as reducing the number of targets to split their fire making it more likely that the next ship to go down will be on the team that lost the first ship.  Now, 11 vs 12 is not all that much different and so it isn't much of an indicator, but 10 vs 12?  9 vs 12?  It quickly spirals out of control and can only be overcome by great skill or luck.

The primary reason so many lopsided matches happen in WoWS is that WoWS has very limited functionality to assist a team that has fallen behind, basically limited to base capping in the face of a superior enemy.  In comparison, a game like Team Fortress or Overwatch allows respawns and makes the attacking team's spawn distance to the initial objective closer than the defending team, and then the defending team's spawn closer to the second objective if the first is lost.  This means that the team is not punished nearly as harshly for losing a member of the team and as the match progresses the positional advantage shifts to the team that is struggling.

I am not saying WG should add respawns to WoWS.  I am simply explaining why lopsided results are so common.  Blaming bad players misses the fact that lopsided outcomes are a secondary outcome of the design features of WoWS, just as having two dominant political parties is the secondary outcome of a first past the post, winner take all election system as exists in the US.  The people designing the system may well have not intended, or even wanted the opposite result, but the secondary results are built into the system.

Complaining about bad players causing blowouts in WoWS is to direct one's ire at the wrong target and to misunderstand why blowouts happen.  The snowball effect causes blowouts to be common even when both teams are evenly matched.

That's very well stated and makes a lot of sense. I'll try to remember this and contain my rage after a 5 minute blowout loss. 

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3 minutes ago, Fog_Battlecruiser_Haruna said:

lopsided gammes happen because of the following things

 

Gunnery: you or your opponant has some better marksmen.

RNG: Detonations and Cits pens vs overpens. will RNG favor your volley or will you miss all 9 shots.... time will tell.

Momentum: Morale and momentum play a very strong roll in player thinking and actions, playing when moreale is high usually will result in more precise actions and swifter responses. Momentum, killing one or 2 ships in a short time without a loss on your side means you have a distinct firepower advantage, with the number of people usualy split off to cap a point. Losing one cap force will give a distinct advantage to the killing team and allow them to manuver more freely.

Manuvers: where you are and where you and your team can focus firepower, everyone [edited] and whines about how BB's camp in the back, CL are always hugging island waifu, and DD's are suicidal and need more HP or armor. but a team that has a superior position and can bring more firepower onto a target in a shorter amount of time will have the advantage. 

Focused fire: This is the big one, a team that picks a target, and smashes it before selecting another will ALMOST ALWAYS have a massive advantage due to the systematic removal of a target. Versus everyone spreading fire out among all 7 or 12 red ships.

 

just some food for thaught

...and it keep coming back to the players...:Smile_sceptic:

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You're right of course but why did that first ship die? 

It's almost always because the player in it did something stupid they didn't need to do and got themselves killed for no gain. You'll rarely see a good player die first. 

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It can happen and there are players that do not play a ship well either. For example rushing to an open cap in the first few minutes as a Donskoi and sailing broadside. 

He got a paddling. When this happens on my team and it does happen, i only hope that players learn from their mistakes the next time around. 

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9 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

You're right of course but why did that first ship die? 

It's almost always because the player in it did something stupid they didn't need to do and got themselves killed for no gain. You'll rarely see a good player die first. 

Well, a lot of things can cause it.

1. DD death - this one has a lot of causes. From a waiting reception comittee of 6 or more ships around the cap point while the other side didn't care.

2. A CA or a BB got too aggressive at the start and was burnt down,

3. A CA/BB showed a broadside and got dev struck.

4. Act of God aka "detonation". all it takes is 1 shell or torp in the wrong place and time.

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41 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

I've seen players whining about lopsided match outcomes for as long as I've been here and this weekends seems to be producing a bumper crop of these complaints, usually focusing on bad players as being the cause.

Bad players are not the primary cause of blowout wins and losses in WoWS.  They can be a contributing factor, but pitting superunicum teams against each other will still often produce blowout results.

The reason is built into the core of the game.  When one side loses a ship the other side gains a firepower advantage at the same time as reducing the number of targets to split their fire making it more likely that the next ship to go down will be on the team that lost the first ship.  Now, 11 vs 12 is not all that much different and so it isn't much of an indicator, but 10 vs 12?  9 vs 12?  It quickly spirals out of control and can only be overcome by great skill or luck.

The primary reason so many lopsided matches happen in WoWS is that WoWS has very limited functionality to assist a team that has fallen behind, basically limited to base capping in the face of a superior enemy.  In comparison, a game like Team Fortress or Overwatch allows respawns and makes the attacking team's spawn distance to the initial objective closer than the defending team, and then the defending team's spawn closer to the second objective if the first is lost.  This means that the team is not punished nearly as harshly for losing a member of the team and as the match progresses the positional advantage shifts to the team that is struggling.

I am not saying WG should add respawns to WoWS.  I am simply explaining why lopsided results are so common.  Blaming bad players misses the fact that lopsided outcomes are a secondary outcome of the design features of WoWS, just as having two dominant political parties is the secondary outcome of a first past the post, winner take all election system as exists in the US.  The people designing the system may well have not intended, or even wanted the opposite result, but the secondary results are built into the system.

Complaining about bad players causing blowouts in WoWS is to direct one's ire at the wrong target and to misunderstand why blowouts happen.  The snowball effect causes blowouts to be common even when both teams are evenly matched.

To make this shorter, it's the Snowball Effect.

But I will say though that the quality of players is not an insignificant factor either.  But the primary reason *is* the Snowball Effect.

The Snowball Effect can be resisted, but it requires the trailing team to make great efforts to sink the wounded enemy ships ASAP to get things back to equal.

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If you think lopsided battles are bad in this, don't even try playing World of Tanks.  You will then learn what lopsided battles really are/

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4 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

Well, a lot of things can cause it.

1. DD death - this one has a lot of causes. From a waiting reception comittee of 6 or more ships around the cap point while the other side didn't care.

2. A CA or a BB got too aggressive at the start and was burnt down,

3. A CA/BB showed a broadside and got dev struck.

4. Act of God aka "detonation". all it takes is 1 shell or torp in the wrong place and time.

You'll note that those first three are all mistakes on the part of the player. 

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Lopsided warfare is in two counts. 
First is once a team start losing ships, the numerical differential start to tilt the other way. 
But that doesn't necessarily have to be the end of it all if the losing team can use the terrain to their advantage and make the victor bleed their way into a lost. However since most players have the tactical sense of an amoeba, that if() else statement rarely tend to work out. 

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28 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

You're right of course but why did that first ship die? 

It's almost always because the player in it did something stupid they didn't need to do and got themselves killed for no gain. You'll rarely see a good player die first. 

No matter how skilled the teams, some ship will die first, even if no mistakes are made.

Yes, mistakes obviously exacerbate this, but the fact is that ships being sunk is a fundamental part of the game and even if you do nothing wrong you can still be out played.

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1 minute ago, LancasterOne said:

First is once a team start losing ships, the numerical differential start to tilt the other way. 

It's more the firepower differential, but what hurt's worse are the loss of dd's. They act as the recon force. You can't shoot at what you can't see. The side that has the most surviving dd's by the ten minute tick mark has the advantage.

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And we'll still have baddies complaining about "noob teams" when they contributed to the snow-busted effect.

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7 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

It's more the firepower differential, but what hurt's worse are the loss of dd's. They act as the recon force. You can't shoot at what you can't see. The side that has the most surviving dd's by the ten minute tick mark has the advantage.

Oh that definitely. You can pretty much guess which team is gonna win by seeing which team has the most late-game DDs. DDs are extremely overpowered alone. Stealthy, long distance torpedo that can be stealth dropped. If they don't want to be seen, they can just outrun everything and wait for the end game timer to tick down. One late game destroyers can determine the tide of a game more so than any ship. 

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7 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

It's more the firepower differential, but what hurt's worse are the loss of dd's. They act as the recon force. You can't shoot at what you can't see. The side that has the most surviving dd's by the ten minute tick mark has the advantage.

Yup.  DDs are, barring CVs being present, the most important ships in the match.  I regularly exhort my teammates to support our DDs and to take any shot they have at the enemy DDs.  Even just big splashes around a DD can intimidate it into falling back.

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11 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

No matter how skilled the teams, some ship will die first, even if no mistakes are made.

Yes, mistakes obviously exacerbate this, but the fact is that ships being sunk is a fundamental part of the game and even if you do nothing wrong you can still be out played.

Of course. 

I just think it's missing the forest for the trees. Yes blowouts would still happen even if everyone was a unicum. But the blowouts that do happen are far more often triggered by some derp derping his way to the bottom of the ocean for no reason than they are because one player outplayed a competent opponent. Getting rid of bad players wouldn't get rid of blowouts but that doesn't mean bad players making stupid decisions aren't often the cause of the blowouts that do happen in this game. 

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Bad players start the snowball good players can stop it.
Had a round in my Musashi when my team aside from an Iowa, Atago and myself were intent on throwing their corpses at the enemy. Over confident, the enemy team came after us, we used cover to segment their forces,  and created firing lanes. The faster Iowa flanking targets that would angle against me. Went from a 7V3 to a 1V3, we lost as the clock ran out with my shells inches away from their last cruiser.

While I don't disagree with your assessment as to how the game is designed, 6 ships played well can beat 12 that aren't.

 

Edited by Troa_Barton

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The reason there are so many lopsided games is because the ability to tank is gone in this game.   You get outnumbered you get burned down quickly,  you can't delay the enemy to give your team a chance to catch up.  They burn you down and move onto to the next target and that target gets burned down even quicker.  No one is an obstacle anymore with HE ships around.

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The Snowball Effect in WoWS is very real but I disagree with Respawns.  The silliness will be magnified big time.

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