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STINKWEED_

PT Halloween Submarines

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Well, I have to say that playing a submarine on PT server has to be the biggest let down. For all those who have been whining about adding subs to the game all I have to say is good luck trying t play them in Random Battles. They are slow, the don't handle very well. The are very difficult to navigate underwater. Your torps are in front therefore to shoot you have to aim your bow at a moving ship and in Halloween mission it was not easy at close distances and at long distance good luck hitting ships unless they travel at the same speed for a long time.
Keep in mind that during WW2 submarines hunted convoys of merchant ships travelling in large groups, close together in a straight line. You rarely hear about subs hunting down warships for a reason. 

In my opinion, WG is going to have an awful time trying to make this work with existing maps. They would have to create new, small maps with confined areas as they have in Halloween mission. Even so, I just don't see it happening. 

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I agree and one small detail you missed. In WWI & WWII subs hunted slow moving convoys that sailed in straight lines. Well they did zig zag but the periods between those zig zags was at least as long as a match here is.

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I frankly see them having a real issue with submarines added with any degree of realism to actual PvP games.  Submarines rarely found themselves in a spot to attack a target without working long and hard to make that happen (ie: having the ships drive to their position).  Normally they made contact, ascertained the base course and speed, then did an "end around" on the surface to achieve an attack position ahead of the unit being targeted.  Since warships traveled much faster than merchant convoys, this was very tough to do against warships (even convoys could take hours of surface running to gain position).

A gaming aspect I feel has not been addressed is computing resources...when my wife bought me "Silent Hunter 4" as a gift years ago and got me back into gaming, I was surprised to find the subsurface environment rendering was more graphics intensive than flight simulations.  I had to upgrade my computer to run a sub simulator, but a flight simulator was fine on that machine.

I think subs in WoWS would either be (a) boring and disappointing to play, or (b) would be unrealistic (ie: underwater characteristics more typical of modern nuclear subs than WW I / WW II era submarines).  The US submarines in WW II more resembled ships in shape than modern subs because they spent most of their time on surface (charging batteries, smelling fresh surface air, moving faster and searching further).  Many of the skippers even adopted tactics more in line with torpedo boats, slinking into or near convoys, torpedoing from a "deck awash" state while still enjoying advantages of being on surface, then escaping / evading on surface if possible or submerging as needed. But, my opinion only and we shall see what wargaming has in mind.  I will never say it can't work or that I won't play it, but I am skeptical it can be made to work realistically with the game environment being modeled.

Edited by groomsiebelle
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In the Halloween mission your team is all subs. The enemy is all surface ships and on a small map that is more like large ponds. 
My guess is if WG is going to introduce subs it will be in for Operations only. You won't be able to use your sub anywhere else and your team will be all subs verses bots. 

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The pro subbers would probably use the Gerfalcon as the base of how all subs should work and say that it isn't a big issue to overly buff the subs to drastic levels.

Little do they realize that other Halloween ships have rather drastic measures of performance adjustments in comparison to their non-halloween ship counterparts just so they are adequate enough to use for the Halloween operations. So the subs used here are also drastic adjustments to be of use in the event and even then, it still had fundamental problems of using a sub. The version of subs in this Halloween event will not ever make it into a pvp environment if the decision is made to do so.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, STINKWEED_ said:

Well, I have to say that playing a submarine on PT server has to be the biggest let down. For all those who have been whining about adding subs to the game all I have to say is good luck trying t play them in Random Battles.

One thing to keep in mind is the halloween event is using subs at their weakest, damage farmers.  The strengths of subs are stealth ambush and spotting, neither are used in this event. 

1 minute ago, Vader_Sama said:

The pro subbers would probably use the Gerfalcon as the base of how all subs should work and say that it isn't a big issue to overly buff the subs to drastic levels.

Little do they realize that other Halloween ships have rather drastic measures of performance adjustments in comparison to their non-halloween ship counterparts just so they are adequate enough to use for the Halloween operations. So the subs used here are also drastic adjustments to be of use in the event and even then, it still had fundamental problems of using a sub. The version of subs in this Halloween event will not ever make it into a pvp environment if the decision is made to do so.

Most ships have their firepower and the strength of their consumables increased for the events.  While the speed of subs was increased they also only have single fired torps.  In the real world they four or six torps in the front, and one or more in the rear.  Subs may have been buffed, but they were also nerfed.

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19 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

One thing to keep in mind is the halloween event is using subs at their weakest, damage farmers.  The strengths of subs are stealth ambush and spotting, neither are used in this event. 

Most ships have their firepower and the strength of their consumables increased for the events.  While the speed of subs was increased they also only have single fired torps.  In the real world they four or six torps in the front, and one or more in the rear.  Subs may have been buffed, but they were also nerfed.

None of what you say would make the slightest difference. You would need to have subs doing 25 knots under water. That is NOT going to happen. They would have to turn under water the same as they do above water. That is not going to happen. Under water the force and pressure make subs sluggish and hard to maneuver.
Torpedoes can be fired as a group in Halloween mission however, it can only do this submerged. In reality they fired their torps consecutive, not at the same time. This was because the torps could run into each other shorting after the launch.

There is absolutely nothing they could buff in a reasonable manner t make it work. It would have to be ridiculous buffs that don't belong in the game. 

Edited by STINKWEED_
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Just now, STINKWEED_ said:

None of what you say would make the slightest difference.....

You're basing this on playing a handful of games on the PTS?  Sorry, we don't know what WG has in mind so none of us can say how things will play out.

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baby steps. I am just happy they are trying new content. If it succeeds, great, if not at least they are trying.

Someone famous said something like that, or close to it.

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The Submarines were designed for this one event, The Hype has come from one very small sentence by the Dev. in a segment of the video.. If the Subs are successful we MAY try to add them in more areas. The Player Base ASSUMED this to be GOSPEL,They went off on a tangent of IF'S so typical of this Forum.

POYpEaA.gif

 

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2 minutes ago, Nikolay_Kuznetsov_ said:

The Submarines were designed for this one event, The Hype has come from one very small sentence by the Dev. in a segment of the video.. If the Subs are successful we MAY try to add them in more areas. The Player Base ASSUMED this to be GOSPEL,They went off on a tangent of IF'S so typical of this Forum.

Correct but so far PTS Halloween event is just subs. Your team is only subs and enemy bots are BBs, Cruisers and DDs. It's pretty bad the way it is I can't see it getting better lol.

 

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I wouldn't mind a PVE only or a limited PVP mode where you and our teammates are in charge of a wolfpack of subs sinking merchants for PVE, or for the PVP mode do a "subs-vs-DDs" match where one group is the subs and the destroyers have to either force the subs to the surface or depth charge them to smithereens.

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Very one the fence about subs in WOWS, but I have only played one battle in them so far.  I can easily see them as part of a rotating scenario, though.

 

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9 minutes ago, ExploratorOne said:

Very one the fence about subs in WOWS, but I have only played one battle in them so far.  I can easily see them as part of a rotating scenario, though.

 


This video is of the Zipper Submarine. You do realize that it's doing 23-24 kt above water and 20-22 kt below water. The torps are doing around 80+ kt. In reality, the best U-Boats did 17 kt above water and 7 kt submerged. 

In the video it's doing 23 kts semi submerged....   I think that the only way subs will fly is in Operations with small maps and your team is a wolf pack.

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8 minutes ago, STINKWEED_ said:


This video is of the Zipper Submarine. You do realize that it's doing 23-24 kt above water and 20-22 kt below water. The torps are doing around 80+ kt. In reality, the best U-Boats did 17 kt above water and 7 kt submerged. 

In the video it's doing 23 kts semi submerged....   I think that the only way subs will fly is in Operations with small maps and your team is a wolf pack.

You forgot that the subs recharge their air supply in 5 - 10 seconds, too!  Another totally unrealistic mechanic, even for WOWS.  I think a Scenario would be a fun diversion in rotation, but  not useful for grinding.

Subs start at 24:21

 

Edited by ExploratorOne

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1 hour ago, Nikolay_Kuznetsov_ said:

If the Subs are successful we MAY try to add them in more areas. The Player Base ASSUMED this to be GOSPEL,They went off on a tangent of IF'S so typical of this Forum.

POYpEaA.gif

Pretty much described the entire species all thru history... ;)

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I'm... skeptical but open minded. Personally I don't want to see them in game but if they work out well and they're fun to both play and play against I'm all for it. We'll see. It's very early. 

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1 hour ago, Slimeball91 said:

One thing to keep in mind is the halloween event is using subs at their weakest, damage farmers.  The strengths of subs are stealth ambush and spotting, neither are used in this event. 

That may be true.  But would you rather have a DD with 5.4 km concealment, many torps, guns, and 34 knots compared to a slow sub.  The Dd can spot vast areas compared to the sub.

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1 hour ago, STINKWEED_ said:

None of what you say would make the slightest difference. You would need to have subs doing 25 knots under water.

Before I start, yes I read your entire post, but I stopped at the bold to shorten the overall length.

 

This got me curious as to "why"?

Keep in mind I am not a pro sub guy, but at the moment I am neither here nor there on the subject (truly I'm not), nor have I been on the PTR. But your statement of "you need to have subs doing 25 knots under water" makes me wonder. After all if from the Wyoming (20.5 knots) to the Colorado (21 knots) is balanced and acceptable for surface speeds, why should subs be able to swim faster under water, then suddenly pop up?

I've seen the same video as everyone else mind you, so unless anything has changed..

1) How would that be balanced?

2) What role would they fill? Not your vision, but WarGaming's (keep in mind, it's there game not yours, ours or anyone else' - this is said about any digital company because they came up with the software and are allowing us to use it).

3) After figuring out what WarGaming wants out of Subs, how would this minimum 25 knot speed limit benefit the Subs?

4) What would Subs sacrifice, if anything, to have that kind of maneuverability across a map?

 

These are just a few questions I came up with briefly thinking about your 25 knot minimum, though I'm sure that it can be picked apart in depth.

Edited by BURN_Miner
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One thing already clear from the test realm is that DD dropped depth charges are not the main threat to subs, this confirms my suspiscion that Wargaming is going to run into real trouble implimenting a model of ASW that makes subs anything more than even smaller  more concealed bad destroyers.

NOTE: they will be fine for Operations but PvP there is  LOT of work on the ASW side needed.

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21 minutes ago, BURN_Miner said:

Before I start, yes I read your entire post, but I stopped at the bold to shorten the overall length.

 

This got me curious as to "why"?

Keep in mind I am not a pro sub guy, but at the moment I am neither here nor there on the subject (truly I'm not), nor have I been on the PTR. But your statement of "you need to have subs doing 25 knots under water" makes me wonder. After all if from the Wyoming (20.5 knots) to the Colorado (21 knots) is balanced and acceptable for surface speeds, why should subs be able to swim faster under water, then suddenly pop up?

I've seen the same video as everyone else mind you, so unless anything has changed..

1) How would that be balanced?

2) What role would they fill? Not your vision, but WarGaming's (keep in mind, it's there game not yours, ours or anyone else' - this is said about any digital company because they came up with the software and are allowing us to use it).

3) After figuring out what WarGaming wants out of Subs, how would this minimum 25 knot speed limit benefit the Subs?

4) What would Subs sacrifice, if anything, to have that kind of maneuverability across a map?

 

These are just a few questions I came up with briefly thinking about your 25 knot minimum, though I'm sure that it can be picked apart in depth.

I think he is saying Subs need high speed so they can run down the surface targets, just like DDs need to be fast to run down thier prey. The problem with this is obviously shredding historical accuracy far more than the previous worst which is approx 25% speed boost on the French T6 BB Normandie which does 29 knots over the historical 22-23k. Also from the PvP perspective the faster the sub the less useful Depth charges become. There is a reason that escorts went from ~20k at the start of WW2 to 30k by 1950. ASW ships have actually been built slower recently as Helecopters now fly at 100 knots and attacks are no longer point blank.

BBs are balanced at slow speed because of thier long range 360 degree zone of control with thier guns. Subs do not have this ability to control large areas of ocean in the same way.

 

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1 hour ago, STINKWEED_ said:

This video is of the Zipper Submarine. You do realize that it's doing 23-24 kt above water and 20-22 kt below water. The torps are doing around 80+ kt. In reality, the best U-Boats did 17 kt above water and 7 kt submerged. 

This is what worries me about any discussion of bringing subs into regular game play.  There is one of these Halloween event subs that exceeds 30 knots submerged.   They all surface and dive almost instantly.  I just don’t see how they can possibly make subs work in a regular game with all the other ship types included without having these fantasy mechanics that make them as fast or faster than modern subs and also ignore the laws of physics.

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1 hour ago, Ellyh said:

I think he is saying Subs need high speed so they can run down the surface targets, just like DDs need to be fast to run down thier prey. 

 

So are the Subs going to automatically have short range (4km to 6km) torps? Or even slower than normal torps to the point that they can be out run? 

I would highly doubt it considering "balance" would be at hand. Complete invisibility, unlike a Destroyer who has smoke, coupled with even 10km torps would be enough to lock down any given cap point.

25 knot+ travel speed isn't a necessity, it would only make the ship type over powered unless, as I said before, it loses something.

 

So, hypothetical here, what happens if they have 12km range torps that travel at 64 knots? How about 16km range and the same speed? Honestly, the only thing that is needed when it comes to these from the looks of it is the ability to aim and get back under the water.

 

EDIT: Read the comment above me and the person he quoted... So it looks like 25 knots is already there and then some. What else should they get, a speed boost? Smoke when they surface? 

The question is not only for you but for the first guy I quoted.

Balance is truly key here and people have to remember that "if" these are implemented into the game, they will be the only ship type that can submerge, well alive at least. If they stay roughly the same as the video is: only able to fire while surfaced, they are completely safe while submerged. 

That in and of itself is a huge benefit. I'm sure something will be done to counter them in some way, but not to the point of being crippled.

I think that some people are looking at this 3 dimensional issue with 2 dimensional glasses. 

Edited by BURN_Miner

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4 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

I agree and one small detail you missed. In WWI & WWII subs hunted slow moving convoys that sailed in straight lines. Well they did zig zag but the periods between those zig zags was at least as long as a match here is.

Eventually the Allies started fielding fast sailing cargo ships, and it got even harder for Ze Germans :Smile_teethhappy: 

 

Also, lots of people are forgetting stats can be fudged to whatever suits the game's purpose.  This game isn't a historical simulator.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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The OP isn't open to even discussing possible changes/improvements to the ship type and game before throwing the entire concept away? Sounds like you already made up your mind against subs and you're rushing to prove it.

I've been leaping at every opportunity I have to test submarines on the PT server to practice them, understand their strengths/weaknesses, and make suggestions on how they can be a fun and viable class for random battles.

In order for submarines to succeed, they need to be able to drive right before they're detected, drop their torps, and escape all while under stealth- otherwise the concept is unworkable (At least, without something like plentiful island cover to get around and surface to refill air). Whether it means faster speeds or longer air time, either one is needed to make the class viable. The Barracuda is also a poor representative of submarine play by making lots of sacrifices to have a pair of working secondary guns. I'm eager to experience other submarine classes when I can possibly unlock them.

Fighting against players is also different from fighting against AI. You can misdirect another human player, or take advantage of their distractions and get up close. In a PvP you're also not bombarded with shore catapults and guns at any opportunity you're on the surface (or near it). Rarely are you going to be swarmed with enemy ships like you do in the halloween event, unless you surface in the middle of an enemy team. If you do that, you deserve to be shot down.

The Halloween event is not a fair representation of what submarines can do, but I see there's a lot of potential in the concept. I'd have a lot of fun playing this class in a PvP setting, probably even more than Destroyer play now.

 

I could ask for more cover and access to better subs in the Halloween event. If you use the Barracuda, you can't avoid being on the surface and detected by enemy guns. There's not enough air time, and you're not fast enough, to do avoid this.

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