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Jakajan

Cossack is.. kinda meh?

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So I've played destroyers for a long time and I own every premium dd in the game. I got Cossack not hoping she would be strong but hoping she would be sort of good sometimes. 

Honestly, I don't see it. Every other DD who has only one bank of torps is good with her guns. Cossack is no better than Harekaze at gun power. She is constantly up tiered and does not have enough stealth. I think if she could math a Kagero in stealth she might be fairly balanced because even then she would still have weak torpedo power.

She is a good scout. She can spot torpedoes. But she is not the best scout and with limited smoke options she can't really use her 8 guns well. How do you all feel about er?

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I looked at LWM's review, then remembered that T8 sees T10 incessantly, and decided it wasn't for me. I might do a few missions and see if I can get it for nearly free, but not really going out of my way to obtain it. A 'scout' that has trouble doing any significant dmg is not exactly appealing...

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If she had 5.4 concealment, or 2k more hp, or german hydro, any of those would make her okay.

Or maybe if she had darings repair ability, would also make her "okay"

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5.5 km concealment is good enough. Cossack is better off than the Lighting due to having engine boost. None of the T8-T10 Rn DD have it. how well you do depends on the Tier. If your high tier in a match, you do well. Low tiered, you have to play at a high skill level. I spent most of my time not firing and just scouting when low tiered. The problem is that Cossack does not stack damage as well. If you want that, use Harekaze, Loyang and Z-34. It is a high skill ship to win consistently.

Edited by Bill_Halsey

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Why'd you think the event's Premium RN DD is free? :Smile_glasses:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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12 hours ago, _Rumple_ said:

I looked at LWM's review, then remembered that T8 sees T10 incessantly, and decided it wasn't for me. I might do a few missions and see if I can get it for nearly free, but not really going out of my way to obtain it. A 'scout' that has trouble doing any significant dmg is not exactly appealing...

Hey

That about sums it up.  Interesting how many reviews only get a Meh rating to a fair and balanced review and people have the audacity to talk about "pay to win".  The Cossack is a no for me, and I love the Haida which is similar.

 

Pete

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yeah, i like harekaze and asashio because both are great when up tiered.

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The main problem with the Cossack is that it's T10.  Sorry, but there aren't many ships that are competitive at T10 when they're at T8.  The Cossack is impressive when top tier, but at T10, it's just trash and not competitive.

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1 hour ago, Jakajan said:

Well her problem is she excels at nothing.

She excels at capping and vision control. Her problem is that she can't stack damage.

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Harekaze is better at cap control and vision.

What is Cossack best in class at?

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8 guns? Akizuki is better.

fire starting? per shell sure but smoke is too limited.

with jack of all trades she might do better.

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On 9/30/2018 at 12:57 PM, Jakajan said:

Harekaze is better at cap control and vision.

What is Cossack best in class at?

 

Not at all.

 

5.4km vs. 5.5km concealment

16100hp vs. 18000hp

144k DPM vs. 163k DPM with HE

Hydro, 66.5s CD on smoke with 6 charges, and RN CL acceleration on Cossack.

 

Harekaze's only real definitive advantage is the second torpedo launcher- the concealment advantage is non-existent since there's no buffer for you to keep Cossack spotted without getting spotted yourself. If Harekaze tries to leverage some vision advantage over Cossack, Cossack can just turn in and blap Harekaze for 2-4k dmg. If Harekaze fights back then Cossack wins by virtue of higher HP/DPM. If Harekaze runs, then the cap simply goes to Cossack, which can now disengage to wait the cap timer out with hydro running. If there are other ships, then Cossack not only is more durable, but is less penalized by dropping a smoke to break detection- something that comes at a much greater cost to Harekaze with only 3 charges total vs. 6 for Cossack. The odds are stacked heavily in Cossack's favor.

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The main problem with the Cossack is that it's T10.  Sorry, but there aren't many ships that are competitive at T10 when they're at T8.  The Cossack is impressive when top tier, but at T10, it's just trash and not competitive

This is true of pretty much all T8s premiums (Kutuzov coughs discreetly)

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5 hours ago, vonluckner said:

 

Not at all.

 

5.4km vs. 5.5km concealment

16100hp vs. 18000hp

144k DPM vs. 163k DPM with HE

Hydro, 66.5s CD on smoke with 6 charges, and RN CL acceleration on Cossack.

 

Harekaze's only real definitive advantage is the second torpedo launcher- the concealment advantage is non-existent since there's no buffer for you to keep Cossack spotted without getting spotted yourself. If Harekaze tries to leverage some vision advantage over Cossack, Cossack can just turn in and blap Harekaze for 2-4k dmg. If Harekaze fights back then Cossack wins by virtue of higher HP/DPM. If Harekaze runs, then the cap simply goes to Cossack, which can now disengage to wait the cap timer out with hydro running. If there are other ships, then Cossack not only is more durable, but is less penalized by dropping a smoke to break detection- something that comes at a much greater cost to Harekaze with only 3 charges total vs. 6 for Cossack. The odds are stacked heavily in Cossack's favor.

Harekaze vs Cossack 1 on 1 I do see your point, but this is not a 1 on 1 game. Harekaze has a 150 meter spotting advantage over Cossack as even though her and Kagero class ships are listed as 5.4km their concealment is actually 150 meters.

I used to play Fubuki back in the day when she was a T8 and back then I learned to use every meter I can get sempai. Every meter.

Those 150 meters when played right will allow your team to get off the first shot, or even two, when coupled with RPF it is easy to jockey that advantage. At least for me.

Now on to a 1v1 scenerio. Harekaze can soot two thirds her firepower out of her tail providing a much more narrow target. If Cossack broadsides to get all eight guns on target she will take a massive amount of puniisment. Harekaze arcs are far superior to Cossack and with a little agility I wager she does about twice the real world DPM and, as you said has a extra rack of torpedoes.

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8 guns and amazing concealment don't make for a bad DD. Although granted, her turret angles are garbage. But if you end up in a 1 on 1 gunfight vs other non-tier 10 DDs, you can generally come out on top. Not to mention that in a regular cap contest, assuming your teammates are not trash, that spotting advantage means the other DD will start taking fire before you do.

I have yet to get Cossack as I'm trying to earn the guineas to buy her later, although who knows when my patience will run out and I'll just throw some money down, lol.

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Well Cossack has 8 guns but practically she has 6 guns forward or 6 guns rear, but they have poor arcs.

How do I put it. If you had a Benson with 6 guns but a 5 second reload time instead of a 3.3 or so, would it actually have more guns?

No. I would argue a well played Benson would out play, but not out utility a Cossack.

A Lo Yang out utitlies a Cossack but could not out gun it. I still think the Lo Yang is stronger in this department though by a huge margin for being the best all rounder dd.

So Cossack is < Lo Yang as a utility boat

< Harekaze at scouting.

<Akizuki at gun boating

However can kind of do it all, however I think the Lo Yang is still the better all rounder.

Maybe, just maybe I suck at her and British DD in general though.

I have 649 battles in Harekaze with a 59% win rate, 12 battles in Cossack with a 41.67% win rate. They do not feel like they can compare with each other at all. All of my normal competitive DD numbers are over 55% usually. Kinda. Okay my T10's need some work but meh.

 

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16 hours ago, Jakajan said:

Harekaze vs Cossack 1 on 1 I do see your point, but this is not a 1 on 1 game. Harekaze has a 150 meter spotting advantage over Cossack as even though her and Kagero class ships are listed as 5.4km their concealment is actually 150 meters.

I used to play Fubuki back in the day when she was a T8 and back then I learned to use every meter I can get sempai. Every meter.

Those 150 meters when played right will allow your team to get off the first shot, or even two, when coupled with RPF it is easy to jockey that advantage. At least for me.

Now on to a 1v1 scenerio. Harekaze can soot two thirds her firepower out of her tail providing a much more narrow target. If Cossack broadsides to get all eight guns on target she will take a massive amount of puniisment. Harekaze arcs are far superior to Cossack and with a little agility I wager she does about twice the real world DPM and, as you said has a extra rack of torpedoes.

 

I just don't think it's realistic to expect to really leverage a 150m concealment advantage on a consistent basis- that is only about one ship length. It can give you something like a split-second advantage to have your guns already moving on target when you get spotted in return, but to truly exploit it against another DD it requires prior spotting (thus being able to plan a course vs. their speed and heading). You cannot pretend to be able to stop or change course enough to keep your own momentum from taking you within spotting range of a previously unseen ship within 150m. If both your ships are closing with one another (like on an early cap) then 100% you will get spotted. You just don't turn that fast and have only limited room to maneuver.

The only win scenario here is if Cossack is withdrawing at 3/4 speed and you overtake her from 7-9 or 3-5 o'clock- then maybe you can keep her spotted, but even then you're probably not keeping her permanently spotted but intermittently. Any sort of evasive maneuver on behalf of Cossack will get you spotted- she turns more sharply, more quickly, and both accelerates and decelerates much faster. Furthermore I think you lack the information to even maneuver with that much precision since ranges are only to the first decimal point. I'm not entirely sure you'd try to do this when it has such high risk and such questionable reward.

I also think that estimating twice the real world DPM is wrong. You are severely underestimating Cossacks damage output- functionally she is never going to be less than a 3-turret destroyer even at extremes (where other destroyers would also be losing firepower), with excellent angles on B and X turrets. Even preliminary states show Cossack averaging more than 1000 more damage than Harekaze.

Fundamentally, if Harekaze starts shooting at Cossack and other people are in range, Cossack just smokes up and shoots Harekaze from concealment- leveraging better DPM, HP, and consumables. The situations where Harekaze comes out on top in a close encounter are so slim. IMO she just isn't better than Cossack at contesting caps, and instead has better performance as a torp boat against capital ships.

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Cossack seems really strong in situations where she get her full broadside shooting. Not the easiest thing in DD duels. That being said, at tier 8, she sets as many fires as Khab does at tier 10 (assuming she gets close enough as Cossack shells are quite floaty). So a smoked up Cossack should be able to torch up ships quite well. And while she only has four torps, those torps are incredibly strong for her tier by gunboat standards. Remember that Benson has 10 torps, but their reload time is noticeably slower and their speed makes them better at area denial than direct strikes.

Now, obviously, this is just conjecture for me as I don't yet own Cossack. I reserve the right to change my mind later ;)

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I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Khaba is also my most played t10 ship and comparing Cossack and Khaba in terms of gun power is like comparing a Shimakaze to a Benson in terms of gun power. Very different characteristics even if there are some things in common in terms of raw output.

Also once you get enough games and experience with the concept you can make use of any concealment advantage above 100 meters, but I agree unless you have some kind of knowledge of their course it becomes more difficult to leverage it. It can and does still happen though if you use rpf and approach at say a 45 degree or 60 degree angle off target. You can make a few assumptions if you think a dd is heading towards a cap, or towards a bb. You have to think the enemy destroyer has a goal in mind and use that to your advantage.

Besides your typical dd at tier 8 has a 5.8km concealment. It is easier to utilize the 450 meter advantage a Harekaze has over that ship than the 300 meter advantage that Cossack has over that average. Thus why I think a ship like Harekaze is far superior to Cossack at this role of cap contesting vs the average target.

 

 

Edited by Jakajan

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