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Theokolese

Modding IFHE or AP

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I understand the purpose behind IFHE, to have a delayed fuse to allow the shell to penetrate armor and explode inside the ship and cause more damage than regular HE. What I do not understand is how can you justify simplified IFHE mechanics that give it a simple yes or no armor penetration value regardless of the angle of the armor? This allows strange scenarios where a 2700 pound AP shell might auto bounce off a bow of a ship but a 70 pound shell can magically penetrate the armor. 

Either the only armor check's AP shells should have to deal with are belt, transverse bulkhead, barbett and turret armor. Regular hull plating regardless of angle should not be bouncing AP shells at ANY angle.

Or IFHE needs to be modded that it has to pass a angling and auto bounce just like AP.

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Okay, three things:

1: No, IFHE does not increase the damage of the shell, only the likelyhood of the shell doing damage in the first place.

2: No, we don't want IFHE to make it so a ship has an AP shell, and a crappier AP shell with reduced damage.

3: No, we don't want an overcomplicated nerf to the skill that lets higher tier light criusers and destroyers actually have constant damage against the BBs at those tiers.

In short, no, I don't want this game to be changed to be more "realistic" if that negatively impacts the gameplay.

 

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2 minutes ago, Baskerville77 said:

Okay, three things:

1: No, IFHE does not increase the damage of the shell, only the likelyhood of the shell doing damage in the first place.

2: No, we don't want IFHE to make it so a ship has an AP shell, and a crappier AP shell with reduced damage.

3: No, we don't want an overcomplicated nerf to the skill that lets higher tier light criusers and destroyers actually have constant damage against the BBs at those tiers.

In short, no, I don't want this game to be changed to be more "realistic" if that negatively impacts the gameplay.

 

So you think it is reasonable that a destroyer can shoot the bow of a battleship and do damage with IFHE but if I am in a battleship and I shoot AP at the SAME place my shells will bounce and do no damage?

I would argue that IFHE is not a skill but a removal of skill. Removing having to account for a ships angle and armor and replacing it with click the mouse as fast as you can.

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3 minutes ago, Theokolese said:

So you think it is reasonable that a destroyer can shoot the bow of a battleship and do damage with IFHE but if I am in a battleship and I shoot AP at the SAME place my shells will bounce and do no damage?

I would argue that IFHE is not a skill but a removal of skill. Removing having to account for a ships angle and armor and replacing it with click the mouse as fast as you can.

Unfortunately these are the issues with game balance. It tosses any semblance of realism out the window.  Quite frankly, the 1/4  pen on th new IJN dds is a terrible idea.  People are averaging over 150k easily with the Harugumo.

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This is one of those cases where reality and gameplay don't match up, because gameplay needed something different. Specifically, gameplay needed a way for small-caliber guns to not be completely worthless, because that would have made a lot of ships unplayable, and thus not able to be included in the game.

Currently, IFHE allows 100-113mm (small DD) and 152/155mm (light cruiser) shells in particular to actually function at high tier. This comes at the cost of 4 captain skill points (meaning that captains on these ships only get 15 skill points to cover what most captains get 19 to do), and a small reduction in fire chance. What do you propose instead, that would make small-caliber guns not worthless, and taking entire classes of ships out of the game?

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Not sure why you would be worried about ifhe with only 31 battles. How many players even have ifhe at t3 except maybe @Lertwith his seal clubbing bogatyr?

Edited by RipNuN2

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Just now, Theokolese said:

So you think it is reasonable that a destroyer can shoot the bow of a battleship and do damage with IFHE but if I am in a battleship and I shoot AP at the SAME place my shells will bounce and do no damage?

I would argue that IFHE is not a skill but a removal of skill. Removing having to account for a ships angle and armor and replacing it with click the mouse as fast as you can.

I do think that is reasonable, yes. If you are shooting AP into a BB's angled bow instead of switching to HE, you should do no damage. Situations like that are the whole reason HE exists.

And I can't help but notice you glossed over the fact that your change would render the DD completely incapable of doing any damage, instead of the small amount it does.

And again, HE is so ships can damage even heavily armored and angled ships. Your change would render a good BB player nigh-invlunerable to a light criuser or destroyer player at longer and safer ranges, no matter how good or bad the player of the smaller ship is.

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2 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

Not sure why you would be worried about ifhe with only 31 battles. How many players even have ifhe at t3 except maybe @Lertwith his seal clubbing bogatyr?

I don't have IFHE on my Bogatyr.

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Just now, Lert said:

I don't have IFHE on my Bogatyr.

Ah well there we go. I wonder if anyone does run it at that tier?

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15 minutes ago, Baskerville77 said:

I do think that is reasonable, yes. If you are shooting AP into a BB's angled bow instead of switching to HE, you should do no damage. Situations like that are the whole reason HE exists.

And I can't help but notice you glossed over the fact that your change would render the DD completely incapable of doing any damage, instead of the small amount it does.

And again, HE is so ships can damage even heavily armored and angled ships. Your change would render a good BB player nigh-invlunerable to a light criuser or destroyer player at longer and safer ranges, no matter how good or bad the player of the smaller ship is.

Not really, it would just require you to aim at the super structure, if you aim incorrectly and hit the hull than yes you should have to pass a armor angle check. 

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20 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

This is one of those cases where reality and gameplay don't match up, because gameplay needed something different. Specifically, gameplay needed a way for small-caliber guns to not be completely worthless, because that would have made a lot of ships unplayable, and thus not able to be included in the game.

Currently, IFHE allows 100-113mm (small DD) and 152/155mm (light cruiser) shells in particular to actually function at high tier. This comes at the cost of 4 captain skill points (meaning that captains on these ships only get 15 skill points to cover what most captains get 19 to do), and a small reduction in fire chance. What do you propose instead, that would make small-caliber guns not worthless, and taking entire classes of ships out of the game?

If your hitting the super structure than damage as normal, if you are aiming poorly and hitting the hull than with IFHE than normal armor angle rules apply. My main gripe is IFHE removes the requirement to aim for a specific part of the ship and replaces it with just hit the ship. 

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1 minute ago, Theokolese said:

If your hitting the super structure than damage as normal, if you are aiming poorly and hitting the hull than with IFHE than normal armor angle rules apply. My main gripe is IFHE removes the requirement to aim for a specific part of the ship and replaces it with just hit the ship. 

Superstructures saturate very easily, so only being able to pen them would mean getting crazy damage for the first 20% of a ship's health bar (roughly) and then being able to do nothing but set fires after that.

And really, IFHE shells that pen 32mm already fail to penetrate large parts of many ships. Turrets, belts, and extended belts (GK, Mosvka) are off limits, and midship decks on most BBs and some cruisers are also too thick. So it's not as if you don't have to aim as it is.

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13 minutes ago, Theokolese said:

Not really, it would just require you to aim at the super structure, if you aim incorrectly and hit the hull than yes you should have to pass a armor angle check. 

Okay, and when the superstructure gets completely saturated? You know, as it tends to do very quickly, what with being the lowest HP part of the ship?

8 minutes ago, Theokolese said:

If your hitting the super structure than damage as normal, if you are aiming poorly and hitting the hull than with IFHE than normal armor angle rules apply. My main gripe is IFHE removes the requirement to aim for a specific part of the ship and replaces it with just hit the ship. 

Um... no. No it does not. A light cruiser shell, IFHE or not, is going to shatter on the thicker armored part of a BB's belt, no matter what. IFHE doesn't make the whole ship vulnerable, it adds the bow and stern to the list of things a light cruiser can actually damage. The only ships that become almost completely vulnerable are the French battleships, with their abundance of 32mm armor. 

Edit: Dang it Edgecase, ya ninja'ed me!

Edited by Baskerville77

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1 hour ago, RipNuN2 said:

Ah well there we go. I wonder if anyone does run it at that tier?

 

I have it on my Koenig Albert. Ofc, that's my 19-point GK captain, who also sometimes moonlights on Emden.

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