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WW2_Iron_Duke

AP King George V class BBs

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Was wondering if anyone has tested if the King George class bad ap in game can even come close to what happened at the ranges the Prince of Wales hit the Bismark .in the battle of Denmark Straight.I know its a game but I think there should be some relative accurracy to ships that actually fought each other in historic battles.The young may not care but alot of us older players do.

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It's an arcade game, not a simulation. That said, there is a great deal of accuracy in the game, there has to be, otherwise no-one would have played it, it would have died long ago.

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I've used AP on the KGV before. It's really not as bad as people claim it is. The problem comes when you shoot at a target that's too heavily armoured and the short fuse time causes the shell to detonate within the armor plating. In the real world if that did happen it would cause HEAVY spalling damage on the other side but I don't think WarGaming models spalling damage yet. I can't find information regarding the ammunition's fuse time but it's armour penetration value in testing is actually really good in the real world.

Range Side Armor Deck Armor
0 yards (0 m) 26.9" (668 mm) ---
10,000 yards (9,144 m) 15.6" (396 mm) 1.15" (29 mm)
15,000 yards (13,716 m) 13.2" (335 mm) 1.95" (50 mm)
20,000 yards (18,288 m) 11.2" (285 mm) 2.85" (73 mm)
25,000 yards (22,860 m) 9.5" (241 mm) 4.00" (102 mm)
28,000 yards (25,603 m) --- 4.75" (121 mm)

This data is from "Battleships: Allied Battleships in World War II" for a muzzle velocity of 2,400 fps (732 mps) and is partly based upon the USN Empirical Formula for Armor Penetration and partly based upon official data.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_14-45_mk7.php

But if we bring the real world into the game we might have to start modelling the frequent mechanical failure it had.

But anyway I have no problems with the gun's AP performance. It's just a bit more situational due to the arbitrary fuse time set by WarGaming. 

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The last time I played kgv, the sob useless fking AP spent 10 minutes doing nothing but giving me 0 dmg hits, bounces and ricochets.

Hit a t6 US cruiser with about 6 salvos for a few thousand.  Then my ai clone kgv came around a corner at about 12 km, I popped him about 6 times, he had 2k health.  When it was over, he has 12k health.  The only ship I managed to actually hurt was the broadside kongo at about 5 km away.

KGV ap is [edited]terrible and the ship cant bounce anything.  Spent my first game in her being penned 100% on every shot by an ai Atago and 1 other little cruiser, all the while the KGV ap was bouncing off the things.

Hell I managed to sink an AI KGV with an Iron Duke, quite effortlessly.  Thing is a joke. Shes quick and nimble but weak with terrible ap...

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6 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

The last time I played kgv, the sob useless fking AP spent 10 minutes doing nothing but giving me 0 dmg hits, bounces and ricochets.

Hit a t6 US cruiser with about 6 salvos for a few thousand.  Then my ai clone kgv came around a corner at about 12 km, I popped him about 6 times, he had 2k health.  When it was over, he has 12k health.  The only ship I managed to actually hurt was the broadside kongo at about 5 km away.

KGV ap is [edited]terrible and the ship cant bounce anything.  Spent my first game in her being penned 100% on every shot by an ai Atago and 1 other little cruiser, all the while the KGV ap was bouncing off the things.

Hell I managed to sink an AI KGV with an Iron Duke, quite effortlessly.  Thing is a joke. Shes quick and nimble but weak with terrible ap...

You can't just go into a game saying "I'm going to shoot AP this time."

It's dynamic, you need to shoot what fits the situation. If you get ~10km and the enemy is broadside or close to it, you use AP, if you are at long range or the target is not broadside, you use HE.

AP actually hits really hard if you aim correctly (never aim at the citadel when in an RN BB, always aim at the thin 32mm armor areas) I've gotten massive hits with AP in KGV.

Note that you will almost never get a citadel hit in anything but a t9 or 10 RN BB and even then, it's going to be rare.

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What I am referring to is 2 shots that mattered one went right thru the bow{overmatch?}, and another hit the hull underwater and damaged an auxillary boiler.I would like some facimile of accuracy as it was a modern British BB yes with mechanical difficulties but the version in game other then looks doesn't seem to remotely resemble the actual capabilities of the British modern 14 in guns this class used.

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1 hour ago, WW2_Iron_Duke said:

Was wondering if anyone has tested if the King George class bad ap in game can even come close to what happened at the ranges the Prince of Wales hit the Bismark .in the battle of Denmark Straight.I know its a game but I think there should be some relative accurracy to ships that actually fought each other in historic battles.The young may not care but alot of us older players do.

Prince of Wales hit Bismarck at medium range - probably at about 17,000 yards or so. Her 3 hits:

The Prince of Wales had in fact achieved three straddles with three hits out of a total of 18 salvoes. The first shell hit Bismarck amidships below the waterline in section XIV, passed through the outer hull just below the main belt, and exploded against the 45-mm armoured torpedo bulkhead. This hit caused the flooding of the port electric plant No. 4. The adjacent No. 2 boiler room also took some water, but this was contained by the damage control parties through the use of hammocks. The second shell hit the bow in section XX-XXI, just above the waterline. This projectile entered the port side, passed through the ship above the 20-mm upper platform deck without exploding, and exited the starboard side leaving a hole of 1.5 meters in diameter. Around 1,000 tons of salt water got into the forecastle, and as a consequence of this several hundred tons of fuel oil were blocked down in the lower tanks. The third shell simply passed through a boat amidships without any appreciable damage at all. http://www.kbismarck.com/denmark-strait-battle.html

 

So hit one went under the belt, penetrated the thin hull plating and exploded on the 45mm torpedo bulkhead. This is uncertain in game as below-belt hits are I believe possible, but the way shell-water interaction is modeled is not very detailed. KGV in game would certainly have enough armor penetration to get through the outer hull at any range.

Hit two was pretty far forward, and I believe missed any armor strake,  correction, hit the 60mm lower strake, which it has plenty of pen to do. The record has it not exploding, despite leaving the large 1.5m diameter hole. Is this possible? Absolutely. KGV has sufficient pen to get through even the distributed armor at that range, with over 300mm of pen at 17,000 yards or so. The problem might be short fuses not allowing it to overpenetrate. However if it's far forward then Bismarck is narrower so maybe it's possible.

Hit three, through a boat is certainly possible, I'm not sure if it would be modeled as a miss - some parts of the visual model do not have hitboxes - or an overpen for negligible damage.

Edited by mofton
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24 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

The last time I played kgv, the sob useless fking AP spent 10 minutes doing nothing but giving me 0 dmg hits, bounces and ricochets.

Hit a t6 US cruiser with about 6 salvos for a few thousand.  Then my ai clone kgv came around a corner at about 12 km, I popped him about 6 times, he had 2k health.  When it was over, he has 12k health.  The only ship I managed to actually hurt was the broadside kongo at about 5 km away.

KGV ap is [edited]terrible and the ship cant bounce anything.  Spent my first game in her being penned 100% on every shot by an ai Atago and 1 other little cruiser, all the while the KGV ap was bouncing off the things.

Hell I managed to sink an AI KGV with an Iron Duke, quite effortlessly.  Thing is a joke. Shes quick and nimble but weak with terrible ap...

Then you're doing something wrong. While the AP is far from amazing, the ship is best using a mixture of both HE and AP. My highest dmg in the game comes from KGV.

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KGV's AP is best against Cruisers, most straight forward and "traditional" in where you need to hit.

 

It's against heavy armor is where her AP can spectacularly fail you.  My mistake with KGV when I first got her was to try the use the AP against BBs like you would with "regular" BB AP.  Go for the Citadel!  That's where her AP really fails.  She has those short RN BB AP fuses.  If you're using AP on a BB with KGV, aim above higher than the citadel to get Penetrations.  Base of the Superstructure also works.  I remember getting the jump on a beached Iowa and my full AP salvo into the waterline was nothing but non-pens.  I was so deflated after that.  You have to get used to this if you want your RN BB AP, because the 419mm shells on Conqueror and Lion behave in a similar fashion.  Your HE is a very safe, consistent shell to use, but your AP will get you the high spike damage to put someone down quickly.  HE is what you'll primarily use, but I have AP in mind when I see a situation coming that could profit from the right shells.

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Full broadside light cruisers -- AP will overpen.

Use HE to get citadels on these.

Heavy cruisers and BBs..  Use AP.  As for citadels, it depends on the ship.  Look at the Armor model.  US BBs - T8 and above - yes.  Below T8==no.  German, French..  nada.  RN..  Yup.

...

And just for fun..  If you get the jump on an enemy BB, and the main guns are turned the other way....   Hit the rear bulkheads on those turrets.  Watch the turrets get destroyed.

Did that to a Richalieu once...   It was basically goofy from there on in.

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Thank You Mofton this was the sort of reply I was inquiring I am old and slow and not the techie that little white mouse is.

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I was aiming my ap at barbettes, turret armor, super structure...not belts, it however couldnt even hurt a t6 us cruiser...sooo yeah.  Pensacola, Cleveland, whatever tier it used to be....

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KGV AP is just as deadly to broadside cruisers as any other BB AP. Its bad reputation comes from its inability to do anything against broadside BBs at long range, but it has HE for that. 

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Fast arming fuse KGV AP is very strong against the light cruisers at T7 and lower. It's in the sweet spot to get full penetrations but also still get easy citadels. KGV has maybe one of the most comfortable guns for BBs at its tier. 

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2 hours ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

It's an arcade game, not a simulation. That said, there is a great deal of accuracy in the game, there has to be, otherwise no-one would have played it, it would have died long ago.

The only thing accurate in this game is the name of the ships. Clans and Teamspeak or Discord are the only reason to stick in the game at this point. WGing has jumped the Shark so many times in the last 6 months its pathetic. This isn't even close to the fun and egaging game I downloaded over 3 years ago. It's gone down like a prom Dress.

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1 minute ago, IronMike11B4O said:

The only thing accurate in this game is the name of the ships. Clans and Teamspeak or Discord are the only reason to stick in the game at this point. WGing has jumped the Shark so many times in the last 6 months its pathetic. This isn't even close to the fun and egaging game I downloaded over 3 years ago. It's gone down like a prom Dress.

This game wasn't any more historically accurate 6 months or 3 years ago than it is now...

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23 minutes ago, AoSApocalypse said:

This game wasn't any more historically accurate 6 months or 3 years ago than it is now...

6 months ago they didn't nerf tech tree ships to come out with OP versions for money. 3 years ago there was only one ship who could see through islands. 3 years ago when it was just the US and Japanese lines they didn't get all crazy with futuristic fantasy what if hypothetical builds with the tech tree ships when they would release a line. Then it all started going down hill with the release of the RU cruiser line. 

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I've seen charts of in game penetration values for ships ap at every range not just round numbers like 5k 10k 15k.   Does anyone know where these figures come from. I can't image someone testing ship ap at every 10th of a kilometer making sure they were dead on 90 degree angle and that they hit the proper part of the target ships armor.

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45 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

I've seen charts of in game penetration values for ships ap at every range not just round numbers like 5k 10k 15k.   Does anyone know where these figures come from. I can't image someone testing ship ap at every 10th of a kilometer making sure they were dead on 90 degree angle and that they hit the proper part of the target ships armor.

We have a pretty good idea of what the penetration formula looks like, so with datamining to plug in the WG variables *cough*krupp*cough*, it's pretty simple to have a program draw up a graph.
WG has this thing where they determine certain stats will be realistic, so they go all out to model those correctly while tweaking other values for game balance.  Shell penetration and velocities are one of the areas they don't like to fudge as much.  Fuze timers and krupp values?  Pure balance parameters right there.

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https://mustanghx.github.io/ship_ap_calculator/ 

This is the one I use when I have some mighty need for specifics. 

51 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

I've seen charts of in game penetration values for ships ap at every range not just round numbers like 5k 10k 15k.   Does anyone know where these figures come from. I can't image someone testing ship ap at every 10th of a kilometer making sure they were dead on 90 degree angle and that they hit the proper part of the target ships armor.

 

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