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BlailBlerg

Exactly how does one play smart in a cyclone with a DD against T10 CAs with radar and/or BBs?

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Also especially for the clumsy ships like Harugumo. You can't smoke up either, they move quickly out of 6-8km. 

With some BBs, you can of course spot, then turn away and torp them between your 5.8 detection and 8.0km spotting (which isn't much at t10), what are you supposed to do against everything else. Most especially T10 Radar cruisers? 

Let's assume that I'm doing an ok job at map awareness and approx where the enemies are, but in a cyclone is very hard to really know for sure where something is, and the 6->8 buffer is not very much when you add in rocks and other ships etc. 

There also seems to be nothing you can do to help support your allied ships: You usually can't be the first one in to spot the enemy, and any enemy at 8km is going to correctly prioritize deleting you in 2 salvos. Let's assume your teammate is like normal, so bad that they took this fight and not even two salvos shot at you will save them. You can even assume that you're down ships, so even heroically sacrificing yourself in an attempt to help them win the fight is really also losing behavior. The fires even harugumo starts is not enough to save your buddies from dying one by one.

One can cap as normal, but as people already know with multiple radars in NORMAL circumstances, that's already quite difficult. Its much worse when the radar cruisers immediately radar you upon being detected.  

Is the answer really just roll over and die? 

 

@Gneisenau013, what is the envisioned correct play for DDs against any larger ships during a cyclone? Is this condition at all balanced for smaller ships, and if so, could someone explain why? 

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You Don't. Cyclones are gifts to Battleships so they can get close and do damage without getting detected. It's a direct nerf to USN Cruisers and Short Range Torpedo Boats.

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If possible I tend to run to my nearest ally if I know there is radar around. Allies on the minimap are the only constant you can have if nothing else is spotted. Better chances in a 2v1. There is also the very distinct possibility the red cruiser will tunnel vision trying to kill your ally, so you have a bit of time to do as much damage as possible.

Edited by warheart1992

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Basically all I can think of is link up with friendly ships and stay close for support as it does put you at a huge disadvantage. Alone? No good answer for you there. Seems I always get cyclones in Khab and Zao so I feel your pain.

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Cyclones are one of the biggest gifts WG gave to Batttleships, especially brawlers with Secondary Builds.  They can push without getting spotted and shelled from afar.  All you got are your torps against the BBs but you have to be careful and not get too close.  Running into a BB at 8km in a cyclone, if you don't react fast, you're getting spotted real soon, esp if you were sailing towards each other.  German BBs with Hydro and their Secondaries, Missouri and her Radar would be big problems.  GK is about to get 6km Hydro:

 

Radar Cruisers, you're in big trouble if you run into them.  DM, Moskva, Chapayev, Baltimore, Cleveland, or heaven forbid, Radar Minotaur, Worcester.  The one benefit you have as a DD against this threat is even in a cyclone, Radar Cruisers are often too scared to push forward.  They don't want to run into a BB.  Worcester running into a GK, Montana, etc. at 8km is going to die a horrible, quick death.  I play Des Moines a lot, my favorite Tier X Cruiser, but cyclones are terrifying because of the prospect of running into a BB at 8km, especially if it's a GK.

 

Throw torps at what you find and get out.  Hope you got Engine Boost ready.  Even Khabarovsk running into people in a cyclone gets in trouble.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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use rpf i have that on my top tier dds and i find it effective to fire my torps to each side of my rpf symbol. I killed a cleveland this morning doing that. It rarely hits bb but mostly dd and ca 

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1 hour ago, EasternSun said:

You Don't. Cyclones are gifts to Battleships 

Yeah, because suddenly being spotted in a BB during a cyclone with nobody visible is soooooooo fun

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9 minutes ago, vak_ said:

Yeah, because suddenly being spotted in a BB during a cyclone with nobody visible is soooooooo fun

As opposed to normal weather conditions where the BB is spotted at typically 13km or longer, not sure what is spotting it, and every person within 20km shooting at you?  It's a gift for BBs.  Some of the BBs, Germans in particular with Hydro access, are very dangerous in this close-encounter scenario.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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I mean. Most of the time it just generally favors BBs. One assumes that torpedoes on cruisers is a balancing factor (Zao, Hindy, Henri)

On DDs, they don't have enough HP usually to stay alive for a suicide run. AND this assumes that in those close quarters that you don't have rocks or even your supposed-you're-helping teammate in between you and the target. And then you ask: Why is the right move to suicide? Its called suicide for a reason. The same argument is then used counteringly for "Oh why are our DDs so terrible and suicide all the time??" 

 

Frankly, even if there is a right move, the margin of error for a DD is horrifically small: The range is too short to dodge any shells realistically (go ahead, go try it), and even assuming you DONT run into a radar cruiser, a ship with hydro (which is usually an instant lose), there is quite a bit of difficultly in correctly maneuvering for a torpedo run that isn't suicidal. 

 

Another argument is one should blind fire torpedoes in the last known position, yet of course, anyone who's ever tried this in cyclones knows how low that hit percentage is. And with 1:40 reloads, frankly, its even worse than a BB blind firing shots. It bears repeating that "torp wall area denial" is NOT a strategy that is effective enough of the time, and is largely constructed as an excuse for it to be ok for DDs to waste their 1:40 torpedoes on firing on nothing. This would be completely unacceptable to any other ship type, and should be completely unacceptable for DD torpedoes. 
- not to mention that of course, much of the time, even with good awareness, the enemy ships will assume un-expected positions during the cyclone: hence fog of war. That's what that means by definition. 

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14 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

As opposed to normal weather conditions where the BB is spotted at typically 13km or longer

Yeah, you have time to react, you can guesstimate where the DD is, most DDs are bads that launch torpedoes at max range, and there is at least some degree of your teammates' support in most cases.

During cyclone you're often one on one with the DD in your little corner of the world, often times you have no clue where the DD is even approximately, and torpedoes are fired point-blank. Fun!

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Play that assumes no counterplay from an enemy is not acceptable answer as a strategy guide. (this is why aim at the white line is not good advice. If your advice is similar to this, likely please reconsider why it may be ineffective) 

Play where the same counterplay will immediately invalidate it is also not an acceptable answer. (ex. BB vs BB, you just gotta shoot his broadside.) 

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To be clear are we talking about Radar / Hydro DDs, or the ones that depend solely on line of sight or allied spotting for targeting? Lol some DDs can still see in the fog, but I know how you feel in Non Radar DDs since I mainly use USN and IJN DDs and only some use of German DDs.

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43 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

To be clear are we talking about Radar / Hydro DDs, or the ones that depend solely on line of sight or allied spotting for targeting? Lol some DDs can still see in the fog, but I know how you feel in Non Radar DDs since I mainly use USN and IJN DDs and only some use of German DDs.

I'm talking about any DD vs almost anything larger (CA or BB). The "blind" BBs like Yamato or Conq are easier. Though, I find that they generally also move away from the engagement to avoid torpedoes, which makes torpedoing them difficult. 

Generally DD vs DD is a whole other mess, but doesn't seem to be impossible. 

Even if its a YY, the radar range is 7.5, spotting range is 8km, it doesn't matter vs larger ships. 

 

Generally this is also a question also when you're down in caps or in ships. Where doing nothing is not an acceptable answer either. 

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2 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

Also especially for the clumsy ships like Harugumo. You can't smoke up either, they move quickly out of 6-8km. 

With some BBs, you can of course spot, then turn away and torp them between your 5.8 detection and 8.0km spotting (which isn't much at t10), what are you supposed to do against everything else. Most especially T10 Radar cruisers? 

Let's assume that I'm doing an ok job at map awareness and approx where the enemies are, but in a cyclone is very hard to really know for sure where something is, and the 6->8 buffer is not very much when you add in rocks and other ships etc. 

There also seems to be nothing you can do to help support your allied ships: You usually can't be the first one in to spot the enemy, and any enemy at 8km is going to correctly prioritize deleting you in 2 salvos. Let's assume your teammate is like normal, so bad that they took this fight and not even two salvos shot at you will save them. You can even assume that you're down ships, so even heroically sacrificing yourself in an attempt to help them win the fight is really also losing behavior. The fires even harugumo starts is not enough to save your buddies from dying one by one.

One can cap as normal, but as people already know with multiple radars in NORMAL circumstances, that's already quite difficult. Its much worse when the radar cruisers immediately radar you upon being detected.  

Is the answer really just roll over and die? 

 

@Gneisenau013, what is the envisioned correct play for DDs against any larger ships during a cyclone? Is this condition at all balanced for smaller ships, and if so, could someone explain why? 

Run to the nearest BB or Cruiser and stay with it until the storm is over.

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Just now, Vaffu said:

Run to the nearest BB or Cruiser and stay with it until the storm is over.

This is true. 

But then what do you DO when there? Especially noting that at close proximity, its hard not to launch dangerously-friendly torpedoes and open shooting generally gets you killed in two salvos under 8km. 

Though: it is a fair point, that that is probably the best way to contribute to the fight. 

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3 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

This is true. 

But then what do you DO when there? Especially noting that at close proximity, its hard not to launch dangerously-friendly torpedoes and open shooting generally gets you killed in two salvos under 8km. 

Though: it is a fair point, that that is probably the best way to contribute to the fight. 

You stick with them till the storm passes and torp or shoot as able. Just sit a bit behind the Cruiser or BB on your team that you are following so you can launch past them on either side without hitting them. You can also smoke up once a ship is spotted and use your guns as your escort ship will still have it spotted.

Edited by Vaffu

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2 hours ago, EasternSun said:

You Don't. Cyclones are gifts to Battleships so they can get close and do damage without getting detected. It's a direct nerf to USN Cruisers and Short Range Torpedo Boats.

I disagree with this as it's really a "gift" to no one in particular. I've been on the receiving end of both a full salvo in a DD from a CA and a full spread of torps from a DD while in a BB during cyclone, both near teammates and "somewhat" near teammates, but not completely isolated.

The whole "short range torp boats" has nothing to do with it either, unless you are planning on firing blindly at which you risk hitting teammates.

8km - 12km is all that is needed, because you can only see up to 8km and a DD with a concealment down to even 7km has the jump (barring radar).

 

Best thing to do is when a cyclone is about to hit, stick with teammates until it passes, regardless of ship type/tier. When I mean stick with them, I mean within visual distance, so at least within 8km.

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2 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

You stick with them till the storm passes and torp or shoot as able. Just sit a bit behind the Cruiser or BB on your team that you are following so you can launch past them on either side without hitting them. You can also smoke up once a ship is spotted and use your guns as your escort ship will still have it spotted.

This is the right answer. Though its the exceptional difficulty that makes it very not effective. 

 

See, you're sitting BEHIND them, and laughing torpedoes forward. See how there's about a 50% chance, you'll be on the wrong side? And even if you aren't, I've seen plenty of potato teammates decide to turn into friendly torpedoes enough to know its just not clear enough to fire. 

Yes that works for smoke ships. Doesn't work well for PA DDs. 

Also I've lost a lot of friendly allies to enemies that kite away, and quickly move past 8km for your smoke. 

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46 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

This is the right answer. Though its the exceptional difficulty that makes it very not effective. 

 

See, you're sitting BEHIND them, and laughing torpedoes forward. See how there's about a 50% chance, you'll be on the wrong side? And even if you aren't, I've seen plenty of potato teammates decide to turn into friendly torpedoes enough to know its just not clear enough to fire. 

Yes that works for smoke ships. Doesn't work well for PA DDs. 

Also I've lost a lot of friendly allies to enemies that kite away, and quickly move past 8km for your smoke. 

Obviously you need to use common sense when using torps. I did not say fire torps willy nilly. That tactic of grouping up during storms works for all ships regardless of type not just DDs. In fact it is the only effective tactic barring running off so far away from the action no one could possibly spot you.

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Find a friendly BB and back them up.
Let them do the scouting when they get in a fight smoke up and help out. If the BB is good they will maneuver so that you can torp.

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Hurricanes are a temporary nerf to (1) ships that usually rely on a spotting advantage, and (2) kiting specialists like many VMF boats. Either one solo is going to have a bad day, so stick with teammates for mutual support until the storm blows over. 

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well, um, be patient and wait for them all to ------- ---- ----- er thin them selves out...the storm WILL pass.. they never last the entire session.  In the mena time backup one of the teams BB's or Cruisers and take the shots you can get...and be ever ready to pop boost, turn tail and run away run away!

I truely understand the "Be Patient" part is difficult...

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