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DouglasMacAwful

Anybody played the subs on the PTS yet?

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Just played a couple of battles.  They're freaking hard to play.  Slow turn time, single torpedoes, O2 runs out fast, and since they're single torps you have to get very close to ensure bots don't evade.  But getting in close means taking damage, both from the ships and the turrets.  I'm sure people will figure out how to play them after more games, but so far not very enjoyable based on the one ship available to me -- the Barracuda. 

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I have been on since this morning, yet to play a game on the live server. Just been fiddle farting around with other stuff. I need to play them tho.

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I don't understand how these got through testing, or if there's just some completely unique way of playing them. 

Hopefully the other subs have a snorkel, where you can breathe at periscope depth, because this seems to be the biggest problem.  In the Barracuda, if you're not 100% on the surface, you're using oxygen.  And being on the surface means multiple things always shooting at you and automatically set on fire by the catapults.  

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Subs are a game of there own. Sub games have the ability to be nothing more. 

I played 6 fights in them and they are just as bad as they sound, slow everything, You could shot torps at 6AM and have lunch before they get even close to target.

This will be a fail just like every other Battle ship game that put subs in them. You will have them that like them and the majority will find them a joke and a waste of time, Much like you have the CV players that think the game is for them you will have the sub players that feel the same, But this is a Ship game and subs will be a annoyance more then anything,

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2 minutes ago, _73RD_Easting2NDACAV said:

This will be a fail just like every other Battle ship game that put subs in them.

In that case, WG will either wash their hands of subs and say "Well, for those who wanted them, we tried," or try to make them work. It's difficult, as Halloween is not your normal, average combat environment. I'll have a go on the weekend if I have any spare time; otherwise I'm waiting for 0.7.10 to drop.

If they're that hard, and if we get a manageable depth charge and sub spotting mechanic, it sounds from what you're saying like DDs won't be very overloaded trying to kill them.

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Or they'll grossly overbuff them to the point of being pure cartoon subs -- because once they put a ship type in the game, they're going to  do whatever it takes to entice people into playing them.  (See, their belief that the interface keeps people from playing carriers, and thus the total rework and ruin of carriers.)

 

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20 minutes ago, _73RD_Easting2NDACAV said:

subs will be a annoyance more then anything

Isn't that what subs were in real life in this era? A sneaky way to harass and annoy convoys or try to take pot shots at warships, but they never 'battled' surface ships? (I don't know jack about real naval warfare, so I apologize if I'm wrong.)

I haven't played them yet but I am looking forward to it. It sounds like they aren't OP in their first iteration. That's a good thing. Hopefully they will slowly get dialed up until they can be effective but not balance breaking.

I for one will give it a go. World of Warships is tons of fun and I am looking forward to a different way of playing within the same fun game.

Edited by Jester_of_War
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Not sure if I will have time to try them in test but I will be all over them during the event.

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Have completed 5 ops so far.. every one a fail all on normal..

Issues: The turning radius, O2 supply, single and incredibly slow torpedo re arm- matched with very dodgy bots and constant catapult/depth charge fire on the surface.. It is too difficult to escape surface detection range unless the bots are moving perpendicular/away from your position/heading.

Suggestion: Decrease rudder shift time and maximum turning radius, decrease O2 absorption rate, and decrease torpedo re arm.

Hind sight: in PvP players will be far more cautious with their torpedo launches, but against 15+bots in a limited time the Damage per Minute is unacceptable.

:etc_swear:

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Here are my take aways:

1) Shore batteries cannot spot by themselves 

2) Torps at range are very ineffective. They are too slow, reload is too slow, and single launch is too inaccurate.

3) Because of point 2 and that shore batteries are generally the thing that hurts me the most, killing enemy ships ASAP is best. So rush them.

4) While the dive only lasts a minute, it recovers quickly. So pop up, fire torps, then dive again. 

5) Leading with a freezing torp helps the follow up ones hit home.

I wish I could get a division on the PTS to try that out as a whole but so far no luck. The last game I played that netted me 7 kills ( the whole rest of my team had 3) so who knows.

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I only played one battle.  It took a couple of minutes to even figure out how to dive and resurface.  After so many battles in surface ships subs just don't feel intuitive.  Turning radius is a big issue as mentioned.  Hard to hit targets on the surface.  Still, I'm going to try and figure this out.

I also played one match of ranked.  T5 ranked in one word, terrible.  The ships are far too weak.  It took 5 minutes before I got the opening kill of the match.  I died and thought I would end up doing poorly, first on my team.   

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One of the issues Wargaming is fighting with is that of gameplay mismatch.

Basically Submarine gameplay follows the Stealth genre which at it's heart is about making waiting engaging and fun. The problem is that basically World of warships is an action game or shooter which is a different type of gameplay.

I found this basic video from Extra Credits helped my thinking about the challenges of a stealth based mechanic. Even DDs are more action based than stealth based, even the Japanese torpedo boats.

 

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6 minutes ago, Ellyh said:

One of the issues Wargaming is fighting with is that of gameplay mismatch.

Basically Submarine gameplay follows the Stealth genre which at it's heart is about making waiting engaging and fun. The problem is that basically World of warships is an action game or shooter which is a different type of gameplay.

I found this basic video from Extra Credits helped my thinking about the challenges of a stealth based mechanic. Even DDs are more action based than stealth based, even the Japanese torpedo boats.

 

That might be a good video for players to watch just to help understand some of the disconnect between "DD-mains" and other players on these forums.

Edited by KilljoyCutter

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Just now, KilljoyCutter said:

That might be a good video for players to watch just to help understand some of the disconnect between "DD-mains" and other players on these forums.

The stealth game play they were referring to in that video isn't the same as stealth in this game.  They were largely referring to single player games designed entirely around stealth.  This game stealth is only a balancing mechanic, not the primary intent of overall game design.

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1 hour ago, Ellyh said:

Basically Submarine gameplay follows the Stealth genre which at it's heart is about making waiting engaging and fun. The problem is that basically World of warships is an action game or shooter which is a different type of gameplay.

 

Wow, nice video @Ellyh. I'd been thinking a lot of this exact stuff earlier. Haven't played subs yet, but from what it sounds like, they will be a "slow and stealthy" ship vs. DDs which are "fast and stealthy". So they shouldn't just be slow Destroyers - they have to bring something else to the fight. I guess it's that they can completely disappear (submerge) whereas a DD can only try to hid, until it gets Radared or proximity spotted or cornered by two ships behind an island or whatever.

Subs should be able to dive and slip under their pursuers. Unless the surface ships have a charge of sonar ready to go or whatever... Wargaming will have to figure out all the tools and balancing that make subs work in the game.

But they shouldn't just be small, weak, slow Destroyers with a little bit more stealth.

1 hour ago, Slimeball91 said:

The stealth game play they were referring to in that video isn't the same as stealth in this game.  They were largely referring to single player games designed entirely around stealth.  This game stealth is only a balancing mechanic, not the primary intent of overall game design.

True @Slimeball91, but it is good to think expansively about how to make it all work. The takeaway for me is just that subs have to be fundamentally different and, like I said, not just a "destroyer-lite."

And they definitely shouldn't break the setting/story of World of Warships. This is a reality-inspired 20th century Naval warfare game -- subs in the game should be based on and guided by what really did lurk in the depths during WWI & WWII.

Edited by Jester_of_War
Ellyh posted video, not KilljoyCutter (thanks to both of you though!)

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No! Submarines are overpowered and WoWs will die if they are introduced in the game!!!111

Right, got that out of the way...

I'm trying to get into the public test now to give these a whirl myself, but what I'm reading here tracks pretty well with what I'd expected. I think there's ways to save submarines by allowing them that extra speed underwater and so on, since I gathered their entire purpose is stealth. Compared to DDs, Subs are trading away a lot of advantages. It would make sense to me if they got a few more advantages to them in turn (such as faster underwater speeds)

...but any mention of this in just any open forum, I feel, will be met with No, Submarines are the devil! WoWs cannot have them!

29 minutes ago, Ellyh said:

Basically Submarine gameplay follows the Stealth genre which at it's heart is about making waiting engaging and fun. The problem is that basically World of warships is an action game or shooter which is a different type of gameplay.

Tension is the motivation to play submarines. The whole thing is about getting in and getting out undetected after dropping torps. I imagine it's like being in an IJN destroyer but instead of staying completely out of range to drop torps, you need to manage your attack within the window of submergence time to go in, make the drop, and get out. I'd have to see for myself if a minute is enough, but I am wondering from watching the play vid on fb this morning if sub drivers don't understand that nuance of play.

I'd gladly exchange the advantages of Destroyers for the ability to make those kinds of attacks. I'm trading one kind of tense play for another.

And Destroyers will always be there for happy run-gun-torp drops they've always been. If Destroyers are fast and fun, Submarines are stealthy and deliberate.

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2 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Tension is the motivation to play submarines. The whole thing is about getting in and getting out undetected after dropping torps. I imagine it's like being in an IJN destroyer but instead of staying completely out of range to drop torps, you need to manage your attack within the window of submergence time to go in, make the drop, and get out. I'd have to see for myself if a minute is enough, but I am wondering from watching the play vid on fb this morning if sub drivers don't understand that nuance of play.

I'd gladly exchange the advantages of Destroyers for the ability to make those kinds of attacks. I'm trading one kind of tense play for another.

And Destroyers will always be there for happy run-gun-torp drops they've always been. If Destroyers are fast and fun, Submarines are stealthy and deliberate.

The problem I am trying to raise is the at it's core, Warships in all its fundamental mechanics and gameply is an action game / shooter. Trying to shoehorn a stealth based Tension based experiance is really really hard as the core logic of the game doesn't match, that is an issue the video I linked talked about explicitly. It is also a major reason behind the lackluster uptake of the current CV gameplay and why they are rebuilding it to a more action oriented experiance as that fundamentally fits better with the core gameplay and mechanics of the game.

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16 minutes ago, Ellyh said:

The problem I am trying to raise is the at it's core, Warships in all its fundamental mechanics and gameply is an action game / shooter. Trying to shoehorn a stealth based Tension based experiance is really really hard as the core logic of the game doesn't match, that is an issue the video I linked talked about explicitly. It is also a major reason behind the lackluster uptake of the current CV gameplay and why they are rebuilding it to a more action oriented experiance as that fundamentally fits better with the core gameplay and mechanics of the game.

I disagree, I mostly play my IJN destroyers as if they were already submarines: deliberate, methodical positioning relying almost exclusively on stealth torpedo launches and remaining (at best) completely undetected through the entirety of the match... As it stands, I could implement the submarines in PvP gameplay to great effect. However our current experience is a PvE one with an over saturation of targets with minimal consistency in damage dealt. It is also true that most players are just 'Yolo'ing and not truly exploiting the advantages of the platform. 

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38 minutes ago, Krupp_Sabot said:

So the torps are slow but how is the alpha strike on them?

Not that great. I hit a cruiser with 2 and he still had around 15% health. You would think that as hard to hit as bots are, they would give single torps huge damage. And I'm not sure freeze torps are all that useful in sub-only mode. If you hold your damage torps until the freeze torp hits, by the time your damage torps make their way to the ship it's repaired. If you fire both freeze and damage, a freeze hit would throw off the aim of the damage torps. It would be more useful in combined sub/surface mode. 

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5 minutes ago, Azerkeux said:

I disagree, I mostly play my IJN destroyers as if they were already submarines: deliberate, methodical positioning relying almost exclusively on stealth torpedo launches and remaining (at best) completely undetected through the entirety of the match... As it stands, I could implement the submarines in PvP gameplay to great effect. However our current experience is a PvE one with an over saturation of targets with minimal consistency in damage dealt. It is also true that most players are just 'Yolo'ing and not truly exploiting the advantages of the platform. 

I can't dictate, but it would be nice to keep this thread on-topic for sub play on the actual operation on the PTS, for those who played it or have questions. There's multiple other thread for speculation on a hypothetical PvP mode that is many months away if it even happens. 

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1 minute ago, DouglasMacAwful said:

I can't dictate, but it would be nice to keep this thread on-topic for sub play on the actual operation on the PTS, for those who played it or have questions. There's multiple other thread for speculation on a hypothetical PvP mode that is many months away if it even happens. 

I believe I have stayed on topic and posted a critique specific to the current PT experience.. the latter half of the text you quoted me even addresses this. o7

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Just now, Ellyh said:

The problem I am trying to raise is the at it's core, Warships in all its fundamental mechanics and gameply is an action game / shooter. Trying to shoehorn a stealth based Tension based experiance is really really hard as the core logic of the game doesn't match, that is an issue the video I linked talked about explicitly. It is also a major reason behind the lackluster uptake of the current CV gameplay and why they are rebuilding it to a more action oriented experiance as that fundamentally fits better with the core gameplay and mechanics of the game.

That's a reasonable overview.  The thing is, the experience (so far) doesn't really feel like a stealth based play style.  It feels more like an action play style that is a bit lacking in action.  I thought WG would spice up the game play for the event.  Maybe they did and this is the action packed version of sub game play.

After two games here's how it seems to play out for me.  You really can't stealth torp on the surface and expect to hit anything.  That means you need to go to periscope depth.  That does two things, lowers your detection, and makes you torps more accurate.  That allows you to get reasonably close to BBs to hit them.  What you have to be very careful of is not getting into assured detection range.  You can fire one or maybe two torps and safely make your turn away before you get detected.  One or two torps isn't going to sink a BB.  So you'll need to try and circle around for another attack.  The sub turns slow so you feel like you're "waiting" like mentioned in the stealth video linked above.  Hitting cruisers is another matter.  The BBs drive like the BB players of old just waiting to get torped, the cruisers don't make it that easy.  

As I said, I've only played two games so I haven't got it figured out yet.  Right now it doesn't feel "fun" to play.  I'll admit part of that is the expectation of all the past action packed halloween events. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Azerkeux said:

I believe I have stayed on topic and posted a critique specific to the current PT experience.. the latter half of the text you quoted me even addresses this. o7

Fair enough. Wasn't addressed specifically to you. Sorry if it seemed like it. Yours was just the most recent post. 

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Surprise surprise, sub gameplay isn't fitting too well. Put your hand up of you weren't expecting it.

The core of the issue is that WoWs is a naval surface warfare action game featuring giant warships slugging it out like they did irl. OTOH subs during WW2 were not tactical weapons designed to fight surface ships in battle. They were strategic weapons designed to lie in ambush preying on merchant shipping, and sometimes the occasional warship that strayed across their path. Once they lost the element of surprise they were extremely vulnerable.

Including subs is WG trying to fit a square into a round hole, and as mentioned above trying to fit a vessel designed for a stealth game into an action game.The square pegg, round hole issue is one they've have had with CVs since very beginning and still haven't managed to figure out, since CVs also do not fit well into a naval surface warfare action game.

If WG try to retain a semblance of historical accuracy, then imho subs will end up being limited, slow, frail, and extremely specialise ambush predators played only by a few diehards. Or WG will have to buff them into cartoon ships to make subs viable in a role they were never designed for.

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